102 réponses à ce sujet

[Dimiye]

it could be that the Collectors were made simply for the task of making a new reaper, and since we only ever saw them with a single ship it's unlikely that they would be enough to take on the fleet guarding the Citadel.

[Encarmine]

just want to make it clear, i just find it funny to think of how or why things dont make sense, no different to me pointing out flaws in Star Wars or Starship Troopers etc, its just a fan thing to do.



I fully accept al of these things have to happen in a certain way to allow the story to progress.

[Aurica]

SandTrout wrote...
I find it unlikely that the Council would unconditionally trust a giant AI construct, even if it did claim to be Protean, and just let it waltz right in. It's far more likely that they would set it in some shipyard where it wouldn't be able to as much harm and start trying to reverse-engineer it.
.

Saren could sell the idea that it is NOT a giant AI construct but ship left behind by the Protheans.  Even if it does not dock with the citadel, technically it doesnt stop Saren from 'allowing' scientist, soldiers, security detail to board sovereign and test it.  In the process of doing so Sovereign could 'subtly' indoctrinate them to think that Sovereign IS INDEED the Prothean vessel. 

End result is that they declare it safe and Citadel council might be persuaded by many indoctrinated ones as well as Saren to tour the 'derelict prothean vessel'.  Once they do it, they can get indoctrinated and under the commands of the Council.  Dock with the citadel.  

[Kasces]

Aurica wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
I find it unlikely that the Council would unconditionally trust a giant AI construct, even if it did claim to be Protean, and just let it waltz right in. It's far more likely that they would set it in some shipyard where it wouldn't be able to as much harm and start trying to reverse-engineer it.
.

Saren could sell the idea that it is NOT a giant AI construct but ship left behind by the Protheans.  Even if it does not dock with the citadel, technically it doesnt stop Saren from 'allowing' scientist, soldiers, security detail to board sovereign and test it.  In the process of doing so Sovereign could 'subtly' indoctrinate them to think that Sovereign IS INDEED the Prothean vessel. 

End result is that they declare it safe and Citadel council might be persuaded by many indoctrinated ones as well as Saren to tour the 'derelict prothean vessel'.  Once they do it, they can get indoctrinated and under the commands of the Council.  Dock with the citadel.  

If it is a ship left by the Protheans, the Council would deconstruct it/reverse engineer it as soon as possible. That's a guess, but that's really the main flaw and any government would try it.

Plus Indoctrination isn't subtle unless a Strong mind is the victim (Saren/Benezia) and if they even stay on Sovereign long enough to be indoctrinated. Most people will be drooling and babbling with clear signs of going crazy fairly quickly if the Cerberus operatives on the Derelict Reaper are any indication. The only way to avoid that obstacle is to sell Sovereign as a huge AI instead of "Oh, look at this pretty ship", but that's just back to square one.  

Which raises an interesting quesiton, can Reapers control the amount of indoctrination they induce?

[Spartas Husky]

Kasces wrote...


Which raises an interesting quesiton, can Reapers control the amount of indoctrination they induce?

I tend to think they would have control over how much they can brainwash somebody otherwise ti would be a bit to dangerous of a one shot deal type of scenario.

Still what drives me to that idea is when talking to Saren that he states soverign still needs him... for now at least. giving me the impression Soverign can control the amount of indoctrination victims go through, otherwise slaves would just be drolling imbeciles before long.

Also Like the Vi on Ilos vigil said, sleeper agents were sent by reapers to infiltrate refuges so reapers must be able to control how much of indoctrination they can induce to make targets useful.

[Encarmine]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Also Like the Vi on Ilos vigil said, sleeper agents were sent by reapers to infiltrate refuges so reapers must be able to control how much of indoctrination they can induce to make targets useful.

I have money on the Virmire Survivor being a sleeper agent no way could they not have been collected on Horizon.

But yeah Sov could of done the whole fake freindly thing IMO, but were forgetting, it seems to be worried about this conduit, maybe it thought the conduit could also have control over the relays or somthing.

Also, just a thought, if a collector cruiser can 'see' the Normandy SR1 even with its cloak active, surely Nazara could of also detected it no worries when it came near Virmire.

pick pick pick lol i need to stop this

[SandTrout]

Indoctrination can be done either quickly or subtly. If done quickly, the subject's mental abilities are more severely degraded. If done subtly, over the course of years, it can produce completely loyal servants that still exhibit enough of their brain functions to not be noticed.

The Derelict reaper was crippled, and likely the rough equivalent of brain-dead or at least in a coma. It could not control its indoctrination field, resulting in the Cerberus crew going nuts rather than acting as sleeper agents for it. We don't know, however, how long the Cerberus team was on the Reaper. Given the Reaper's condition, though, it probably would drive someone insane with even the subtlest field.

[Spartas Husky]

Encarmine wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Also Like the Vi on Ilos vigil said, sleeper agents were sent by reapers to infiltrate refuges so reapers must be able to control how much of indoctrination they can induce to make targets useful.

I have money on the Virmire Survivor being a sleeper agent no way could they not have been collected on Horizon.

But yeah Sov could of done the whole fake freindly thing IMO, but were forgetting, it seems to be worried about this conduit, maybe it thought the conduit could also have control over the relays or somthing.

Also, just a thought, if a collector cruiser can 'see' the Normandy SR1 even with its cloak active, surely Nazara could of also detected it no worries when it came near Virmire.

pick pick pick lol i need to stop this

virmure survivor? you mean who died in the nuke? or whoever was in horizon?

If is horizon though, then I dont think, they were just damn lucky. Indoctrination takes a while so I dont think she or he is indoctrinated.

[DPSSOC]

One thing people forget about ME1 is that until Saren/Sovereign collected all the pieces and journied to Ilos they didn't know what the Conduit was. All they knew was that it existed and was connected to Sovereign's inability to remotely control the Keepers. Saren is as much in the dark for most of the game as we are, he just has the advantage of being a step or two ahead in figuring things out. Keep in mind that Liara is able to interpret the vision to track the Conduit to a single planet. Not a system, or a cluster, or even a portion of the Galaxy but to a single specific planet. Now given that we're able to get and understand that much detail don't you think we'd get the actual function of the Conduit if it were included.



As for why Sovereign didn't use the Collectors it's already been stated the Collectors are not a battle force, they're recon. They're meant to skulk and study not study. Pound for pound the Collectors may have a tech advantage but there simply aren't enough of them to take the fight to the Citadel. If they had that kind of military might they wouldn't be picking off single colonies in the neglected fringes of space they'd be punching for places like Terra Nova, Eden Prime, Earth, etc to get large numbers of subjects more quickly.

[Encarmine]

hehe yes but what have they been up to in the last two years?? its just a personal hunch

[Zulu_DFA]

Dimiye wrote...

it could be that the Collectors were made simply for the task of making a new reaper, and since we only ever saw them with a single ship it's unlikely that they would be enough to takeon the fleet guarding the Citadel.

Because Sovereign wasn't acting per standard procedure.

And Vigil was lying.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 décembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[aeetos21]

First off Zulu there's always plot holes, you know this.

The collectors role was to to collect specimens to identify which was the most viable for slaves/reaper building material. Once earth was conquered they would roll up in their huge ships and start capturing humans or whatever other genetic material the reapers wanted to play mad scientist with.

In short the collectors are glorified movers. Taking on the Normandy in a fight, that's one thing, but what Sovereign needed in ME1 was a real army to help him find out why the keepers weren't activating the Citadel mass relay - Saren and the indoctrinated geth became that army. Everyone already knew of their existence so they wouldn't draw too much attention, not like the collectors who the galaxy didn't know that much about at all. The geth also had a much larger force with several ships to fight against the combined forces of the Citadel fleet. In ME2 there was no mass fleet, just the Normandy and that wasn't too much trouble for a bunch of glorified movers.

So that "army of slaves" isn't really an army at all. We fought just as many husks in ME2 as we did collectors. In ME1 it was clear that the geth were greater in number.

If the events of ME2 remained unchecked what likely would've happened is the collectors would've kept hitting human colonies that no one cared about until the finished their new reaper. Then they would've found a new agent and indoctrinate another race - or maybe just stick with the geth again - before surprise attacking the Citadel and trying to open the mass relay again. Instead Shepard shut them down before they could even get off the ground.

By now the reapers are pissed, hungry, and are saying screw the backdoor into the Citadel (our plan A is clearly not working out this time), time for plan B and we'll take the long way around and make do with trying to fight a unified galaxy instead of taking it apart system by system.

Modifié par aeetos21, 26 décembre 2010 - 10:59 .

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

By now the reapers are pissed,

The Reapers can be pissed?

aeetos21 wrote...

hungry

What do you mean by that?

aeetos21 wrote...

and are saying screw the backdoor into the Citadel (our plan A is clearly not working out this time),

Who did ever say the Citadel was the Reaper "Plan A"?

aeetos21 wrote...

time for plan B and we'll take the long way around

Doesn't look it'd take them long. A man's lifetime is a blink of an eye for the Reapers, making the whole point of using the Citadel as a shortcut inexplicable.

aeetos21 wrote...

and make do with trying to fight a unified galaxy instead of taking it apart system by system.

If you refer to the "switch off the relays" part of Vigil's lies, please address why do the Reapers attack Earth instead of attacking the Citadel first, even as they arrive to the Milky Way "the long way"?

[Asheer_Khan]

If you refer to the "switch off the relays" part of Vigil's lies, please address why do the Reapers attack Earth instead of attacking the Citadel first, even as they arrive to the Milky Way "the long way"?

We DON'T known if Reapers attack first Earth... STOP making assumptions based on that short trailer which in matter of fact could show very END of the game where player totally screw up on entire line letting reapers go on galactic rampage...



GOD i really wish that people stop acting like they poses time machines and played ME 3 already...

[Winterfly]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

super_gamer wrote...

Why didnt Sovereign use the Collectors in Mass Effect 1. Why go thought all the trouble of getting new a new army of slaves when the Reapers already had one?

Because Sovereign wasn't acting per standard procedure.

And Vigil was lying.

You bring in your own thread as some evidence? That is very very wrong. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

If you refer to the "switch off the relays" part of Vigil's lies, please address why do the Reapers attack Earth instead of attacking the Citadel first, even as they arrive to the Milky Way "the long way"?

We DON'T known if Reapers attack first Earth... STOP making assumptions based on that short trailer which in matter of fact could show very END of the game where player totally screw up on entire line letting reapers go on galactic rampage...

GOD i really wish that people stop acting like they poses time machines and played ME 3 already...

This assumption is based not only on the trailer but on the extrapolation of how the 2 previous games worked: you as Shepard travel the Galaxy.

Plus there was that Mordin's assumption that the Collectors wanted Earth, plus the Incursion comic, plus multiple other clues.

So while maybe you don't know that, I know (I mean, for sure) ever since the treaser, that the Reapers are going to attack the Earth first.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 décembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[aeetos21]

aeetos21 wrote...

By now the reapers are pissed,

The Reapers can be pissed?

---- No, they enjoy having their existence threatened

aeetos21 wrote...

hungry

What do you mean by that?

----The reapers aren't immortal, they need resources to survive. Its been 50 thousand years and hibernation or no hibernation they're likely hurting by now.

aeetos21 wrote...

and are saying screw the backdoor into the Citadel (our plan A is clearly not working out this time),

Who did ever say the Citadel was the Reaper "Plan A"?

---- Can you think of a better strategy than wipe out the leadership, cripple the navy, cut communications, take command of the relays and take the galaxy apart system by system? I think Shepard says it best: "They could wipe out the entire Citadel fleet in one single surprise attack!" I mean it isn't just a strategy, its walking up behind someone and pulling the trigger.

aeetos21 wrote...

time for plan B and we'll take the long way around

Doesn't look it'd take them long. A man's lifetime is a blink of an eye for the Reapers, making the whole point of using the Citadel as a shortcut inexplicable.

---- Its already likely been more than three or four years depending on just when exactly Sovereign first indoctrinated Saren and the geth and turned them into its army. Two years go by with the collectors trying to create a new reaper to succeed where sovereign failed. Realizing Shepard has them by the balls reapers say screw this and go "the long way around" by entering the galaxy without the aid of the mass relays. THEN (and this is when it really gets long) they have to fight against the combined forces of a galaxy much more prepared for them: remember in ME1 we only saw a small portion of the Citadel fleet. The rest was out guarding the mass relays when Sovereign attacked. That combined with the Terminus systems' forces as well as the geth, rachni, quarian, krogan... it really turns into a real war they have to fight. Add to the fact that they're low on resources and the chances of them not succeeding become a tangible threat.

aeetos21 wrote...

and make do with trying to fight a unified galaxy instead of taking it apart system by system.

If you refer to the "switch off the relays" part of Vigil's lies, please address why do the Reapers attack Earth instead of attacking the Citadel first, even as they arrive to the Milky Way "the long way"?

----Maybe because reports of giant calamari spaceships would tip the Citadel off long before the reaper fleet could get there? The bigger force would be assembled at the Citadel, ready to defend "the heart of our government." Earth and other single systems will be less defended. Establishing a foothold is the first step in any invasion. Since humanity has the best genetic stock and the biggest military right now, make sense starting there.

As for Vigil's lies, in all my time on these forums you're the ONLY person I've ever come across claiming that. Then again that doesn't surprise me given some of your comments in other threads both in this forum and the old one. Still it keeps things interesting so, thank you 

Edit: I still get headaches though over that one "Cerberus isn't all that bad" thread that went on for weeks pre-ME2's launch.

Modifié par aeetos21, 26 décembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

If you refer to the "switch off the relays" part of Vigil's lies, please address why do the Reapers attack Earth instead of attacking the Citadel first, even as they arrive to the Milky Way "the long way"?

----Maybe because reports of giant calamari spaceships would tip the Citadel off long before the reaper fleet could get there?

What reports? We're talking F.T.L. travel here for gossake!

[aeetos21]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

If you refer to the "switch off the relays" part of Vigil's lies, please address why do the Reapers attack Earth instead of attacking the Citadel first, even as they arrive to the Milky Way "the long way"?

----Maybe because reports of giant calamari spaceships would tip the Citadel off long before the reaper fleet could get there?

What reports? We're talking F.T.L. travel here for gossake!

It was never explained in technical detail how mass relays work or why the reapers specifically needed direct access to the Citadel mass relay in order to escape dark space. If they could escape dark space just by hitting the Sol systemand then from there go to the Citadel without alerting anyone then they likely would've done so by now instead of waiting three-four years. BW probably has something up their sleeves about that. Good news is chances are we're less than a year away from finding out.

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

BW probably has something up their sleeves...

Seriously? What could that be?

Perhaps, it's that Sovereign wasn't acting per standard procedure? And Vigil was lying?

[aeetos21]

Maybe, I won't say it isn't possible and if it does work out that way it'll be one of the biggest twists BW has ever pulled off. You would also have a lifetime supply of bragging rights on this forum - not sure if BW is willing to make that sort of sacrifice for a good plot twist.

[Anacronian Stryx]

adam_grif wrote...

Sovereign already knew why the keepers weren't responding by the events of ME1, he was searching for the conduit so he could do a sneak attack on the Citadel and upload the data file. The issue with the plot is that he wouldn't have needed to do a sneak attack + siege the citadel with a fleet of Geth if he had simply found a more subtle way to get the file there. For instance, using the council's star spectre (SAREN, who had a spotless record and was loved by all until he went rogue and attacked Eden Prime) to simply upload the file, since the terminal he needs to upload it at is about 2 feet away from the place where people adress the council when they arrive in person.

So, Sovereign knew what the Conduit was ahead of time (otherwise he couldn't have known it was a back door into the Citadel), knew that the Beacon on Eden Prime would lead him there, and knew he would need it. Except, he only needed it because he went after it in the first place... This is a confusing circular motivation that appears to me to be an enormous plot hole.

Actually Sovereign did not know what the conduit was which is exactly why he didn't take any action towards the citadel before he found out, For all Sovereign knew the conduit could be some elaborate trap set by the Protheons so there is no way Sovereign was going to commit to anything before he found out.

Now, it seems almost certain that the Reaper indoctrination was what "soured the songs of the Rachni queens" and forced them to start the Rachni wars, to gain entrance to the Citadel, presumably so he could work out what was going on and activate the citadel manually. This happened more than 1000 years prior to the events of the game, closer to 1800 years. So, in all this time, he sat around waiting to be discovered by people... for what purpose?

That's one theory.

Here's mine : Sovereign found the Rachni and discovered they are one of those races who did not develop along the lines set forth by the reapers (No mass effect technology and soforth) so Sovereign instigated a war with the council races to have the Rachni wiped out..a plan that worked perfectly.

I do not belive that Soverign tried to activate the citadel relay earlier than just before the event's of Mass effect one, So the timeline goes like this.

Sovereign finds the time is right and tries to activate the relay : nothing happens.

Sovereign makes the assumption that the citadel relay not functioning must be some sort of "parting gift" from the Protheons(makes sense since the relay worked fine the last time it was used and there was nothing indicating that any of the younger races had a clue to the fact that the citadel was really a trap).

Sovereign instructs his agent (Saren) to find clues to what the Protheons did to the citadel.

A protheon relay is discovered on Eden Prime, Sovereign sends Saren to investigate and cover all tracks.

Though Saren Sovereign discoverers the conduit but not what it is, It might still be some form of trap of mass destruction.

Soverign instructs his agent to find a way to decipher the visions from the Eden prime beacon so the visions might become clearer and the location of the conduit might be found - Events of Feros takes place - The conduits location is found to be on Ilos but Sadly Ilos is unreachable since the MU relay has gone missing.

Sovereign instructs his agent Saren to send Benezia to Noveria to extract the location of the MU relay from the Rachni queen. - Events on Noveria takes place.

Sovereign instructs Saren to travel to Ilos where he discoverers that the conduit is nothing more than a backdoor - Now with nothing stopping him Sovereign launches the assault on the citadel and instructs his agent Saren to use the conduit. -events at the end battle take place- Saren is dead and Sovereign is destroyed.

Now in all this time the Collectors have made semi-frequent travels(at least enough to become Myth amongst the younger races) to council space and the Terminus systems in order to ascertain which spices was the "juiciest"(sorry) to find out if any of the younger races were suitable for Reaper-hood.   

[Zulu_DFA]

aeetos21 wrote...

Maybe, I won't say it isn't possible and if it does work out that way it'll be one of the biggest twists BW has ever pulled off. You would also have a lifetime supply of bragging rights on this forum - not sure if BW is willing to make that sort of sacrifice for a good plot twist.

They can always get at me by further emphasizing the role of the thermal clips and high heels in the ultimate defeat of the Reapers...

[Asheer_Khan]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

If you refer to the "switch off the relays" part of Vigil's lies, please address why do the Reapers attack Earth instead of attacking the Citadel first, even as they arrive to the Milky Way "the long way"?

We DON'T known if Reapers attack first Earth... STOP making assumptions based on that short trailer which in matter of fact could show very END of the game where player totally screw up on entire line letting reapers go on galactic rampage...

GOD i really wish that people stop acting like they poses time machines and played ME 3 already...

This assumption is based not only on the trailer but on the extrapolation of how the 2 previous games worked: you as Shepard travel the Galaxy.

Plus there was that Mordin's assumption that the Collectors wanted Earth, plus the Incursion comic, plus multiple other clues.

So while maybe you don't know that, I know (I mean, for sure) ever since the treaser, that the Reapers are going to attack the Earth first.

Whatever you say captain Obvious <_<

[atheelogos]

super_gamer wrote...

Why didnt Sovereign use the Collectors in Mass Effect 1. Why go thought all the trouble of getting new a new army of slaves when the Reapers already had one?

You never show all your cards at once.