102 réponses à ce sujet

[Uber Rod]

SandTrout wrote...

I find it unlikely that the Council would unconditionally trust a giant AI construct, even if it did claim to be Protean, and just let it waltz right in. It's far more likely that they would set it in some shipyard where it wouldn't be able to as much harm and start trying to reverse-engineer it.
If I were in the Council's position, I'd be paranoid as hell regarding Sovereign. Why wait till now? Why is it left with no living Protheans when it clearly has enough space and power supply to sustain a population? What's with the mind-control field?
Not to mention that study of the Reaper could result in the Council Races developing weapons what could easily destroy a Reaper, or reveal the nature of the Relay IFFs, or other technology we don't even know about yet.
Strategically, it made sense, at the time, to mass a huge Geth fleet and just storm the Citadel by force. It's not a reasonable consideration to think that small team lead by a human would be able to follow so closely on Saren's heels, wipe out hundreds of Geth, download an ancient Citadel override file from a Prothean VI, and actually manage to let the human fleet in in time to take out Sovereign.

Well, you don't tell them it's a giant AI construct now do you? Just say you found this really great Prothean ship of unusual design and that you want to bring it to the Citadel for further study. You bring it in, dock it and game over.

[Winterfly]

Have you seen the size of it? You cannot dock it in the Citadel. Also they are not stupid.



And the odd feeling it brings, the scientists would wreck it upside down and find it in the end. You seem to take so lightly on common sense and logic.

[Aurica]

Kasces wrote...
Plus Indoctrination isn't subtle unless a Strong mind is the victim (Saren/Benezia) and if they even stay on Sovereign long enough to be indoctrinated. Most people will be drooling and babbling with clear signs of going crazy fairly quickly if the Cerberus operatives on the Derelict Reaper are any indication. The only way to avoid that obstacle is to sell Sovereign as a huge AI instead of "Oh, look at this pretty ship", but that's just back to square one.  

Spartas Husky wrote...
Also Like the Vi on Ilos vigil
said, sleeper agents were sent by reapers to infiltrate refuges so
reapers must be able to control how much of indoctrination they can
induce to make targets useful.

I still think that it is possible to sell the idea to the council that Sovereign is a derelict prothean vessel.  As for what your saying, its comparing a derelict reaper to Sovereign a fully functional and active reaper which I see as completely different.

Derelict reaper is disabled and may or may not be self-aware of its residual effects of indoctrination.  Sovereign is fully operational and active and could be in control of the effects of its indoctrination.  To what degree, what memories to alter, the strength of it etc...  

You would assume that all indoctrinated are babbling or drooling but it can't be that case if Sovereign needs them as sleeper agents.  A drooler wouldn't make a convincing sleeper agent imo.  Evidence from Vigil proves otherwise.  It is also likely that Reapers, hyper advanced sentient machines that predates organics can predict an organic's ability to be suspicious and can act in ways to disarm their paranoia.

For a race that have executed numerous extinction cycles.  They should probably covered all angles and calculated the probability of the events that could or could not happen.

Modifié par Aurica, 26 décembre 2010 - 07:20 .

[SandTrout]

Even if you don't outright tell them it's an AI, they're not going to dock it with the Citadel; they'll find some remote research facility to start dismantling it. They certainly wouldn't leave it intact, and they would still learn a lot about Reaper construction and develop countermeasures.

[Winterfly]

Also, why the heck are you discussing the possibility that Sovereign could have done it better?



There would be no game had he taken the Citadel, period.

[Aurica]

SandTrout wrote...

Even if you don't outright tell them it's an AI, they're not going to dock it with the Citadel; they'll find some remote research facility to start dismantling it. They certainly wouldn't leave it intact, and they would still learn a lot about Reaper construction and develop countermeasures.

Thats where the indoctrination come in isn't it?  Convert the first people who boarded Sovereign.  Then have the converts become sleeper agents that convince the council it is a good idea to keep sovereign intact and bad idea to dismantle it.  Council does not believe?  Send in more scientist!  They get converted as well.  Then eventually have the sleeper agents convince Council to board Sovereign for a visit.   Bam convert the council as well.  Then the rest as they say is history.

[Aurica]

Winterfly wrote...
Also, why the heck are you discussing the possibility that Sovereign could have done it better?
There would be no game had he taken the Citadel, period.

Are you implying that because its already happened in the game, we shouldn't be discussing it?

[Vaenier]

Aurica wrote...

Winterfly wrote...
Also, why the heck are you discussing the possibility that Sovereign could have done it better?
There would be no game had he taken the Citadel, period.

Are you implying that because its already happened in the game, we shouldn't be discussing it?

No, he is saying that if Sovreign had done a better plan, there wouldnt have been a game to stop him in the first place. He would have won, because you never got involved.

[shinobi602]

282xvl wrote...

A second game was requested by fans. It was therefore written and produced. Profit was had.

Mass Effect was planned as a trilogy from the beginning.

[Vaenier]

shinobi602 wrote...

282xvl wrote...

A second game was requested by fans. It was therefore written and produced. Profit was had.

Mass Effect was planned as a trilogy from the beginning.

It doesnt feel like it was written that way. But it was indeed planned as a trilogy, that is why they made the import system and choices and stuff.

Make stuff up as you go is a valid design technique.

[shinobi602]

Vaenier wrote...

It doesnt feel like it was written that way. But it was indeed planned as a trilogy, that is why they made the import system and choices and stuff.

Make stuff up as you go is a valid design technique.

I know creating things as you go is definitely what a lot of developers do, but why doesn't it feel written that way? Because they introduce new stuff in each iteration?

[Vaenier]

shinobi602 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

It doesnt feel like it was written that way. But it was indeed planned as a trilogy, that is why they made the import system and choices and stuff.

Make stuff up as you go is a valid design technique.

I know creating things as you go is definitely what a lot of developers do, but why doesn't it feel written that way? Because they introduce new stuff in each iteration?

They basically admitted they designed me2 after me1 by changing the plot so new people could keep up. They turned all me1 into cameos, threw out sole survivor background, and railroaded you to working for cerberus. they killed you off so you can start at lvl 1 for new people again. collectors were tacted on to replace geth. other stuff to, but i am ranting so i will stop here.

[supakillaii]

Vaenier wrote...

Make stuff up as you go is a valid design technique.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=4 http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6

Modifié par supakillaii, 27 décembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[shinobi602]

Vaenier wrote...

They basically admitted they designed me2 after me1 by changing the plot so new people could keep up. They turned all me1 into cameos, threw out sole survivor background, and railroaded you to working for cerberus. they killed you off so you can start at lvl 1 for new people again. collectors were tacted on to replace geth. other stuff to, but i am ranting so i will stop here.

Hmm, well I have to say I respectfully disagree with all that. Not all of ME1 cast were cameos,  and none of that shows me they changed the plot and was intended from the beginning, as they said they knew where they wanted to go with the plot. Nothing felt tacked on, it just flowed.

Meh, whatever lol

Modifié par shinobi602, 26 décembre 2010 - 11:03 .

[Vaenier]

supakillaii wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Make stuff up as you go is a valid design technique.

I'm sorry, I have to disagree http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=4 http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=6

O..o I made it to page 1330 of the first mspaint adventures. I have to disagree with you disagreeing with me.

Also, I seem to have lost 37 IQ points, any idea where they went?

Modifié par Vaenier, 27 décembre 2010 - 02:35 .

[supakillaii]

Which one did you read?

Anyway, first one's purely random, chosen from forum suggestions, while in the second, the author defined the beginning and the end (and the main characters), and winged it from there. Was supposed to be 1 year job, now already, what, 1 and a half, almost 5/7 done

[Aurica]

Vaenier wrote...

Aurica wrote...

Winterfly wrote...
Also, why the heck are you discussing the possibility that Sovereign could have done it better?
There would be no game had he taken the Citadel, period.

Are you implying that because its already happened in the game, we shouldn't be discussing it?

No, he is saying that if Sovreign had done a better plan, there wouldnt have been a game to stop him in the first place. He would have won, because you never got involved.

Point taken.  Do you suppose each Reaper has its own personality? Given the vast amount of experience and intelligence that Reapers generally possess.  Is it possible that they intentionally choose to act in certain ways even if they have already calculated all probabilities and other equally viable options has been presented?

Modifié par Aurica, 27 décembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Winterfly]

I am pretty sure they have their own personality. They are after all seemingly very advanced AI's from the first look at it. Also the reapers manage to keep a Council blind eyed and ignoring if facts. Rather seeing that human blind then trying to look into the matter. Afterall Sovereign was alone and the Geth is being ratted out in ME2.



So yes, had Sovereign really put a "proper" plan to action we would have no ME2.



And the derelict reaper? I presume its not in citadel space. The council seemingly rather ignore it too.

[Kelleth]

My gues is that the Collectors where plan D or E? They have used many before them =)

[Archereon]

Aurica wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Even if you don't outright tell them it's an AI, they're not going to dock it with the Citadel; they'll find some remote research facility to start dismantling it. They certainly wouldn't leave it intact, and they would still learn a lot about Reaper construction and develop countermeasures.

Thats where the indoctrination come in isn't it?  Convert the first people who boarded Sovereign.  Then have the converts become sleeper agents that convince the council it is a good idea to keep sovereign intact and bad idea to dismantle it.  Council does not believe?  Send in more scientist!  They get converted as well.  Then eventually have the sleeper agents convince Council to board Sovereign for a visit.   Bam convert the council as well.  Then the rest as they say is history.

This.  Considering Sovereign was alive, it might have been able to actively impair the efforts of said scientists without them knowing, keeping them working towards a dead end until they were under its power, then sending them to convince the council to either visit the work site themselves, or allow Sovereign access to the Citadel tower.

[SandTrout]

Indoctrination still takes time if you don't want drooling vegetables, and the Council simply wont spend enough time on or near their pet research project to get indoctrinated. When was the last time you saw a president or prime minister visit NASA or their national equivalent? At best they'd get a 1 day tour of the facility.

Sure the scientist would get indoctrinated after a month or so, but what kinds of breakthroughs would they come across in the mean time to send off to their military counterparts? Initial samples wouldn't be kept on site, as laboratory equipment would take time to move in and set up on-site. Samples for the first few months would be set off-site to existing labs for study, and those labs would be uninfluenced by Sovereign's indoctrination, while every day spend under the microscope increases the chance that someone will figure out what's really going on.

All in all, the risk of the slow and steady approach are greater than the direct force approach. Hell, the direct force approach should have worked if it weren't for the large number of pro-Shepard plot devices.

[Whitestrake]

Because it's a story.

Strictly speaking, it probably would've been easier for Sovereign to just punch Shepard in the dick right after Eden Prime, & then go blow up the Citadel, but would that have been fun? For anyone but Sovereign at least.

Probably not.



Within the confines of the story though, it's more than likely what most people said, the Reaper's are a nation unto themselves.

They seem to operate mostly independently, Sovereign, & Harbinger may not've been in cahoots. Just because they have the same goal, doesn't mean they'd go about it the same way, or even know they were both after that same goal.

Also, I sorta saw Harby, & the Collecters as a back up plan.

[azerSheppard]

Modifié par azerSheppard, 27 décembre 2010 - 05:34 .

[azerSheppard]

Vaenier wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

282xvl wrote...

A second game was requested by fans. It was therefore written and produced. Profit was had.

Mass Effect was planned as a trilogy from the beginning.

It doesnt feel like it was written that way. But it was indeed planned as a trilogy, that is why they made the import system and choices and stuff.

Make stuff up as you go is a valid design technique.

That's what Lost did, and it lost the game[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]





People are forgeting that Both sovereign and harbinger are reapers, a collection of AI created by unifying the collective intelligence and persona of a species, meaning that "there are many voices" and finaly a consensus.

Now we know reapers can communicate with each other (or we can assume this) meaning that they can share eachothers opinions and reach a final consensus by viewing each consensus, to reach a final consensus, or reach a consensus whilst they are comunicating.

This means that they have to agree on everything before they do it. Meaning that harbinger and sovereign did agree on Sarens raid.

UNLESS, as sovereign said, each are a nation, with their own rule, if so, then there could be a rule amongst them that they are not allowed to interfere with anothers doings.


I doubt that the writers have been thinking this far ahead tho, it's a typical case of "making up as you go along", it always leaves plotholes unanswered.

Modifié par azerSheppard, 27 décembre 2010 - 05:34 .

[Reaver102]

All sovereign knew was the signal to activate the citadel failed but he did not know the specifics. In  Mass Effect sovereign's purpose was all about finding out what the protheans did and correcting it.

Modifié par Reaver102, 28 décembre 2010 - 03:42 .