231 réponses à ce sujet

[Shinobu]

In another thread errant_knight posted "On a side note, gotta say I'm surprised how many people find marrying Alistair to Anora to be a good ending" which made me curious as to what endings people thought were "good" for either Alistair or Ferelden.

I assume the HNF marries Alistair or HNM marries Anora and Alistair rebuilds the Wardens turn out the best (have not played those, so not sure), but if those don't/can't happen, what then?

From a "dutiful" CEF Warden perspective, I believe the "least bad" option is:
1) Harden Alistair and marry him to Anora
2) Refuse the DR
3) Take the blow or spare Loghain and have him do it

(Of course on my first playthrough I was too weak to follow through and wound up with Queen Anora + OGB just so the Warden could ride off with Alistair into the sunset. Whoops! ).

Why those choices?
1) Alistair/Anora turn out to be great rulers. Anora alone shafts the city elves after the initial goodwill has worn off. It's not stated in game, but I believe Alistair & Anora do eventually fall in love. Anora respects him as "a good man" and he responds to the least crumb of affection, so... Alistair will get over the CE Warden (he's willing to dump her without discussing it, after all -- even more so if Loghain is spared).

2) Refusing the DR for two reasons:
a) Alistair. Asking the man to create a bastard (something he didn't enjoy being, himself) with an amoral woman he dislikes, and let her ride off with his child -- alone -- to raise it in whatever twisted Flemeth-y way she wants seems like a bit much. I think he would have serious regrets about this, later.
It's Flemeth's idea, therefore probably not good. Especially given the scene of Morrigan crying and debating whether to "do something terrible" to save a friend. Somehow I don't think having sex with her friend's true love counts as "terrible" to Morrigan, so it must be pretty bad. (MaybeFlemeth wants to possess the OGB or another Blight occurs.)

3) Taking the blow mostly because the CEF can't let Alistair do it. After having been in love with him she can't let him destroy his soul. Loghain -- she's not so attached to, though she respects him.

What endings do others find the best?

EDIT: Unofficial summary at the bottom of page 8 for those who don't want to read everything.

Modifié par Shinobu, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:59 .

[Sarah1281]

I prefer the hardened Alistair/Anora ending. It says that the country decided the events of the game were worth it for giving them Alistair/Anora. LI Queen Cousland's slide is kind of lame since it just says that everyone saw how much Alistair loved her. Non-LI Queen Cousland says he deferred to her a lot and she had a lot of power. Prince-Consort Cousland MIGHT have a golden age if he doesn't fight for power with Anora, but since it's too soon to say if they will struggle for power it's too soon to say for the golden age either.

Alistair/Anora is a guarentee. Things will go very well with them. Alistair or Anora + your PC really depends on just how competent your PC is, doesn't it? I think my Queen Cousland could do alright as a ruler but the country would have been better for Alistair/Anora. I think Alistair isn't happy marrying Anora and her father is a big point of contention. If he's alive, Alistair will never get over it. If he died, Anora may have issues. If Alistair is left single, I believe that he will get married since he tells his non-Queen LI that he fully plans on doing this and never indicates that he changed his mind even if he takes them as his mistress (though others prefer to think he's the rare king that never marries). He might find a political match that he can be happy with and perhaps even love or he might end up really miserable. It's probably better for Alistair personally, if he must be king, to marry a HNF.

Unhardened Alistair is happier off the throne but, on the throne or not, I think he's better off being more confident and hardened.

Edit: 

I'll admit, I always cheat with the DR decision. I do it because I know that either that baby is not going to go about bringing the end of the world like the anti-DR people say it will or else it will be forced upon us as a canon because how much of an impact can it possibly make if only half the players have it exist at all? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Sarah1281]

It's Flemeth's idea, therefore probably not good. Especially given the scene of Morrigan crying and debating whether to "do something terrible" to save a friend. Somehow I don't think having sex with her friend's true love counts as "terrible" to Morrigan, so it must be pretty bad. (MaybeFlemeth wants to possess the OGB or another Blight occurs.)

I actually think that that something 'terrible' she was talking about was hurting her friend the Warden by sleeping with her LI. It was a female Warden in the comic, after all. I don't think that Morrigan would know something about the DR, think that something is terrible but be willing to do it anyway, and then get cold feet because she befriends the Warden only to go through with it because she wants to save her friend. Not to say that the OGB couldn't go very, very badly but I don't think that's why Morrigan was upset.

[Thiefy]

The best outcome i guess would be whether of not you play male or female, and whether or not you believe the dark ritual is evil. Either way I think the best for both is to play human, but you won't get to know what the true "best" is until future installments.

[Sarah1281]

Why is the best outcome for Ferelden and/or Alistair playing a human? So Alistair could marry a HNF or have a HNM marry Anora? Remember, in the latter case he can be executed or sent off to become a drunk while Loghain gets to be a big hero so I'm not sure I'd agree that that's best for Alistair. If you think the Alistair + HNF and Anora + HNM are tied for best ending, maybe, but that's really vague so I'm not sure if that's what you meant. This isn't about the 'what origin ties best into the so-called main plot of the game' discussion.

[White_Buffalo94]

My canon playthrough is trick Anora, allow Alistair to rule the thrown alone and find his own wife (Anora is a ****, if you put her on the throne without Alistair, she subjugates the elves and isn't the 'everyman' Alistair is). I do the DR because my Warden-Commander loves Morrigan and will do anything for her, plus he feels he can do a lot more good in the world if he lives. I don't think the OGB will be evil after all, it's my understanding that before my Warden goes through the Eluvian with Morrigan, she intends to use the childs power in some way to fight Flemeth, as opposed to Flemeth possibly wanting to possess an OG soul.

[Sarah1281]

(Anora is a ****, if you put her on the throne without Alistair, she subjugates the elves and isn't the 'everyman' Alistair is)

Sure, she cracks down on them after they riot. If they rioted under Alistair, cracking down on them would be the best choice as well. We don't have enough details, but I am willing to concede that some policy Alistair had that Anora did not caused even riots and possibly food shortages. If Anora is spending her money pulling Ferelden into the modern age and making it less of a backwater, I think that's worth it. Many do not.



So while that's fair, why does not being an 'everyman' make Anora a ****? Cailan wasn't an everyman. Was he an **** for it? None of the nobles really are because, well, NOBLE. That's kind of the point. But then, I've never understood the appeal of putting an everyman in power. I don't think that the average person off the street is qualified to rule a country so why would the everyman candidate who is just like those average people be any better? Why elitism is annoying, I would rather have the elites who know what they're doing in charge instead of Joe Average who really doesn't no matter how much everyone else who has no idea how to run a country can identify with them.

[Shinobu]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

My canon playthrough is trick Anora, allow Alistair to rule the thrown alone and find his own wife (Anora is a ****, if you put her on the throne without Alistair, she subjugates the elves and isn't the 'everyman' Alistair is). I do the DR because my Warden-Commander loves Morrigan and will do anything for her, plus he feels he can do a lot more good in the world if he lives. I don't think the OGB will be evil after all, it's my understanding that before my Warden goes through the Eluvian with Morrigan, she intends to use the childs power in some way to fight Flemeth, as opposed to Flemeth possibly wanting to possess an OG soul.

Interesting. I haven't done WH, so this is new info for me. Thanks!

[Shinobu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's Flemeth's idea, therefore probably not good. Especially given the scene of Morrigan crying and debating whether to "do something terrible" to save a friend. Somehow I don't think having sex with her friend's true love counts as "terrible" to Morrigan, so it must be pretty bad. (MaybeFlemeth wants to possess the OGB or another Blight occurs.)

I actually think that that something 'terrible' she was talking about was hurting her friend the Warden by sleeping with her LI. It was a female Warden in the comic, after all. I don't think that Morrigan would know something about the DR, think that something is terrible but be willing to do it anyway, and then get cold feet because she befriends the Warden only to go through with it because she wants to save her friend. Not to say that the OGB couldn't go very, very badly but I don't think that's why Morrigan was upset.

Good point. I guess I had looked at it as: Morrigan was along for the ride, hadn't decided about offering DR then was torn when it came down to it. Or maybe the "something terrible" could refer to her having a child with her half-brother if you ascribe to the "Maric is Morrigan's father" theory. In that case Morrigan could have been hanging around hoping to find some other Warden to do the DR with only to be left with Alistair in the end. Again, I find it hard to believe that common morality like "don't sleep with your friend's lover" affects her so much, but maybe it's because I'm not romantic. If someone said to me "let me shag your true love to save his soul" I'd say, "you go, girl!"

[Sarah1281]

I'd go for it as well given the very specific and very dire circumstances in the DR, but I know that a lot of people are greatly upset by it and I have seen some people who say that their Warden's relationship with Alistair will not last because of the DR whether it's because of her issues, his issues, or both. I guess if the Warden had yet to actually get around to sleeping with him, it would be worse. I've heard that the Queen Cousland ending is 'bittersweet' because of the DR.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 25 décembre 2010 - 07:06 .

[Shinobu]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I do it the same way and I play a male character.

1) Hard Al and Anora are great together and great for Fereldan.

2) I refuse the DR for all the reasons everyone's discussed: it's Flemeth's plan, Flemeth will come for the kid, Morrigan doesn't really know what she's getting in to, the kid will be bor as Mr. Staypuft, etc.

3) My canon character is "The Redeemer." Everyone who actually will change for the better gets to. I used to let Loghain take the killing blow, but now his redemption is to rebuild the order of Wardens he destroyed. I die.

4) Better epilogue if I die anyway.

Yes, love redeeming people. I'm jazzed because I heard you can tell Jowan to "run for it" at Redcliffe and later he turns out to be a do-gooder. (I hadn't chosen that because I didn't think it would be a "real" option but am gonna have to try it now.)

The epilogue is great for US, isn't it? It makes me misty-eyed. The writers must have done that to reward players for going the full-on Noble route (bless them), 'cuz in the game it totally sucks for the Warden.

[Shinobu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'd go for it as well given the very specific and very dire circumstances in the DR, but I know that a lot of people are greatly upset by it and I have seen some people who say that their Warden's relationship with Alistair will not last because of the DR whether it's because of her issues, his issues, or both. I guess if the Warden had yet to actually get around to sleeping with him, it would be worse. I've heard that the Queen Cousland ending is 'bittersweet' because of the DR.

Yes, that's why I'm interested to hear others' opinions. Things that I take for granted are totally wrong in others' world views, I guess. I can see the relationship being poisoned by Alistair's regret over the child ("How could you ask me to do that to a child, knowing my history as a bastard?") but less so by jealousy ("How could you be unfaithful to me to save my life?") -- but would like to hear from people who feel that way.

How is the Queen Cousland ending bittersweet?

[Sarah1281]

Because you can only get it if your husband-to-be sleeps with Morrigan and she takes away what may be his only heir and makes them both very sad (or so I understand. Ask in the Alistair thread and you'll get a clearer picture).



As for the Jowan thing, if you tell him to leave and never return in the dungeon then he will but in order to run into him again you'll need to manually trigger the encounter so if you're on a console you can't do it.

[FellowerOfOdin]

1) Yes.



2) Yes, absolutely. Giving Morrigan such a powerful child is the dumbest and least responsible thing one could do. Would you give your child a gun? Why would you give Morrigan such a child then?



3) Redeemer is the best ending for Ferelden as an old war hero gets redeemed from his sins and Ferelden is saved at the same time while the Grey Wardens still have their strongest member (the player) among their ranks...everyone is happy. Even Alistair will man it up and acknowledge that your decision was the best one could have made.

[Sarah1281]

Would you give your child a gun? Why would you give Morrigan such a child then?

That's a false analogy. You may think that both options are equally stupid and irresponsible but a child with a gun could only do one of three things: shoot themselves, shoot someone else, or don't pull the trigger. Morrigan's child might grow up to try and bring about the end of the world (regardless of whether this is part of Morrigan's or even Flemeth's plan) but it could also live as a powerful non-world-ending mage or it could be a powerful force of good. You clearly don't think it's worth the risk but we don't have enough information to know that it's automatically going to bring death and destruction to everyone.

[IanPolaris]

I almost always do the dark ritual. Why? I am aware of the risks and Morrigan is asking a lot for precious little information in return, BUT....



It really comes down to Today and Tomorrow, and understanding the difference between them. Today, you face the archdemon, and without that ritual you know that at least one grey warden has to die and you can't really afford to lose any....but with the ritual, that Grey Warden does not die.



Yes, it means the soul of the old god survives and is in Morrigan's hands, but no one knows how that will turn it. It might be best for Thedas? (IMHO Witch-hunt strongly implies that it will be). If so, terrific. If not, it's an issue for tomorrow.



Basically if you don't take the ritual, your life (potentially) ends in a die and with it any chance of affecting the world. With it, your life continues and if it's a mistake you still have a chance to correct it.



Thus the difference between today and tomorrow and understanding that difference.



-Polaris

[Shinobu]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

1) Yes.

2) Yes, absolutely. Giving Morrigan such a powerful child is the dumbest and least responsible thing one could do. Would you give your child a gun? Why would you give Morrigan such a child then?

3) Redeemer is the best ending for Ferelden as an old war hero gets redeemed from his sins and Ferelden is saved at the same time while the Grey Wardens still have their strongest member (the player) among their ranks...everyone is happy. Even Alistair will man it up and acknowledge that your decision was the best one could have made.

The only problem for Alistair is that he has to look at the BDS (Big Darn Statue) of Loghain from his window for the rest of his life.

[Thiefy]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why is the best outcome for Ferelden and/or Alistair playing a human? So Alistair could marry a HNF or have a HNM marry Anora? Remember, in the latter case he can be executed or sent off to become a drunk while Loghain gets to be a big hero so I'm not sure I'd agree that that's best for Alistair. If you think the Alistair + HNF and Anora + HNM are tied for best ending, maybe, but that's really vague so I'm not sure if that's what you meant. This isn't about the 'what origin ties best into the so-called main plot of the game' discussion.

Because I don't like Anora and I don't think deserves to rule or if she does, needs to be roped in and controled, "for the good of the country".



But clearly you feel differently , since you've been ardously defending her and her honor for several monthes in God only knows how many threads. Not trying to get into an arguement but I just despise Anora with every fiber, and quite frankly don't feel I need to explain myself further. She's not what is best for the country IMO. As far as Alistair goes, I don't know why you bothered bringing up those scenarios since that only is applicable if you pick to save Loghain. Where does it say that I would do that? You can have Alistair execute him and still marry his daughter as a HNM.

[Addai]

I can't see Alistair and Anora ever getting beyond a decent working relationship, and even then I think there would always be tensions. Can't see Anora ever being vulnerable enough to have a real relationship with any man, to be honest. At least one that's not a doormat and thus poses no threat to her sovereignty as ruler. And Alistair is idealistic about love, not the type to just settle. His father was in an arranged marriage, but at least with Maric and Rowan there was a basis of friendship.

I see pairing them as a better short-term solution, but in the long run no better for the country than one of them ruling alone.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Sarah1281]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why is the best outcome for Ferelden and/or Alistair playing a human? So Alistair could marry a HNF or have a HNM marry Anora? Remember, in the latter case he can be executed or sent off to become a drunk while Loghain gets to be a big hero so I'm not sure I'd agree that that's best for Alistair. If you think the Alistair + HNF and Anora + HNM are tied for best ending, maybe, but that's really vague so I'm not sure if that's what you meant. This isn't about the 'what origin ties best into the so-called main plot of the game' discussion.

Because I don't like Anora and I don't think deserves to rule or if she does, needs to be roped in and controled, "for the good of the country".



But clearly you feel differently , since you've been ardously defending her and her honor for several monthes in God only knows how many threads. Not trying to get into an arguement but I just despise Anora with every fiber, and quite frankly don't feel I need to explain myself further. She's not what is best for the country IMO. As far as Alistair goes, I don't know why you bothered bringing up those scenarios since that only is applicable if you pick to save Loghain. Where does it say that I would do that? You can have Alistair execute him and still marry his daughter as a HNM.

I wasn't trying to argue with you, I was trying to understand your post.

The best outcome i guess would be whether of not you play male or female, and whether or not you believe the dark ritual is evil. Either way I think the best for both is to play human, but you won't get to know what the true "best" is until future installments.

I will break down my confusion. Whether you do the DR or not depending on how you view it morally seems simple enough. The part about how the best outcome varies depending on gender could mean either for the throne (you could put yourself on the throne with Anora although you said you won't do that, put yourself on the throne with Alistair which you haven't weighed in on, or put Alistair on the throne by himself) or the DR in which you might find it more moral to do it yourself instead of making Alistair do it but I'm not claiming to know your opinions on those matters.

What I was wondering about was the part I bolded. Why do you feel it is best to play a human? Are you saying that you feel that the Queen Cousland ending is the best? If yes, then that is all I wanted to know.

I don't really care if you like Anora or not. You wanted to know why I *bothered* to bring up a scenario in which having a human could produce a bad ending for Alistair? Well, the thread is asking about best ending for Ferelden AND/or Alistair. In trying to understand your very vague 'I think humans have a better outcome', I was listing ALL of the scenarios. You clearly know my views on at least Anora but I don't really know yours. Having a human is not necessarily always automatically best for Alistair as it can result in the throne-stealing Alistair-executing I mentioned earlier. Just because you would never do this and part of it can be done without a human doesn't mean it's not still a case where having a human gives Alistair a happy ending.

I know you never said you would do it. I know you can have Loghain killed and marry Anora yourself. In this case, though, that's not really a horrible ending for Alistair, is it, since he gets his revenge and gets to stay a Warden? From my perspective, simply having a human Warden does not equal a better ending for anybody. You didn't even specify that it was a Cousland and not an Amell. If you meant more (like, say, Queen Cousland) then you didn't say so and I'm not a mind-reader. If you don't feel like explaining that further, then I'm going to remain confused as to what you mean.

I'm not sure why my confusion over why simply having a Cousland or Amell of either gender with no other qualifications makes Ferelden and/or Alistair have a better ending has to do with Anora's suitableness as Queen, either.

Edit: And I don't care about 'honor', just disagreeing with what I feel to be too harsh or innacurate condemnations of, well, anyone...including Anora. She's a popular target.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 25 décembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Shinobu]

IanPolaris wrote...

I almost always do the dark ritual. Why? I am aware of the risks and Morrigan is asking a lot for precious little information in return, BUT....

It really comes down to Today and Tomorrow, and understanding the difference between them. Today, you face the archdemon, and without that ritual you know that at least one grey warden has to die and you can't really afford to lose any....but with the ritual, that Grey Warden does not die.

Yes, it means the soul of the old god survives and is in Morrigan's hands, but no one knows how that will turn it. It might be best for Thedas? (IMHO Witch-hunt strongly implies that it will be). If so, terrific. If not, it's an issue for tomorrow.

Basically if you don't take the ritual, your life (potentially) ends in a die and with it any chance of affecting the world. With it, your life continues and if it's a mistake you still have a chance to correct it.

Thus the difference between today and tomorrow and understanding that difference.

-Polaris

I can see your point. Alistair's personal feelings about the DR aside (assuming he would be the one doing it -- not so much of an issue with a male PC Warden), I can see "kicking the can" down the road. After all the impossible stuff the party has done up to that point, the possibility of hunting down Morrigan and/or defeating an Old God doesn't seem so unattainable. Also, if you trust Morrigan as a friend to know whether the ritual is A Bad Thing ™ and behave accordingly it's reasonable to do the DR.

I do disagree that you can't afford to lose any Grey Wardens, though. The ritual only saves the warden if the AD is killed, in which case the Blight is effectively over. In that eventuality Grey Wardens aren't so necessary that losing one is a big deal. Now, if Morrigan's ritual made sure no Wardens died before reaching the AD fight, that would be a very strong incentive to go through with it.

[Shinobu]

Addai67 wrote...

I can't see Alistair and Anora ever getting beyond a decent working relationship, and even then I think there would always be tensions. Can't see Anora ever being vulnerable enough to have a real relationship with any man, to be honest. At least one that's not a doormat and thus poses no threat to her sovereignty as ruler. And Alistair is idealistic about love, not the type to just settle. His father was in an arranged marriage, but at least with Maric and Rowan there was a basis of friendship.

I see pairing them as a better short-term solution, but in the long run no better for the country than one of them ruling alone.

Maybe I delude myself into believing they will fall in love as a sop to my conscience for forcing them to be together. :whistle:There's not much info to go on, so your interpretation is as valid as mine. In that case do you favor making Alistair king by himself or Anora queen by herself? I'd still pull for hardened King Alistair. He'd be able to have some say in who he married (just not the non-HNF Warden, *sniff*), which might make him happier, and he does admit that being king "might be an interesting future for (him)," so he's not all out opposed to the idea.

[Reika]

I know everyone says that Anora is a brilliant ruler, but you really don't hear about that until the Landsmeet. I know she said she actually ruled while Cailan was on the throne, but you don't hear anything like that until you get to Anora. I know Cailan was a glory-bound idiot in Ostagar, but you only heard comments about him and battle.



I don't remember really hearing anything bad about him being a king.



And quite frankly after seeing most of the game with Anora hiding behind daddy (sorry, that's just the way I see it) and she's what? Almost 30? I have a very hard time believing she'd actually be a good queen, ruling with either an M!Cousland or Alistair or on her own.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reika wrote...

I know everyone says that Anora is a brilliant ruler, but you really don't hear about that until the Landsmeet. I know she said she actually ruled while Cailan was on the throne, but you don't hear anything like that until you get to Anora. I know Cailan was a glory-bound idiot in Ostagar, but you only heard comments about him and battle.

Codex Entry:
"The only child of the war hero Loghain Mac Tir, Anora has never been one to stay quietly in the background. It is common knowledge that in the five years Anora and Cailan held the throne together, she was the one wielding the power. She is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike, and commands the respect even of foreign nations, having once inspired Empress Celene of Orlais to declare, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles."

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 décembre 2010 - 03:23 .