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What is the best outcome for Alistair &/or Ferelden?


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#26
Addai

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Shinobu wrote...

Maybe I delude myself into believing they will fall in love as a sop to my conscience for forcing them to be together. :whistle:There's not much info to go on, so your interpretation is as valid as mine. In that case do you favor making Alistair king by himself or Anora queen by herself? I'd still pull for hardened King Alistair. He'd be able to have some say in who he married (just not the non-HNF Warden, *sniff*), which might make him happier, and he does admit that being king "might be an interesting future for (him)," so he's not all out opposed to the idea.

I have most often made Alistair sole ruler.  The only time I married him off to Anora was when the Warden remained his mistress (a Dalish elf, she was rebuilding the Wardens so not a daily presence at court).  I just really like King Alistair.  I'm too fond of his father not to.  ^_^

From one standpoint, sparing Loghain and marrying hardened Alistair to Anora is an "economical" outcome.  Anora living out her days in a monastery or being executed is a waste, and so is Alistair going off to souse in the Free Marches.  I wouldn't call it a happy outcome, though.  There's ample evidence that political marriages have a down side.  OTOH, even if he can choose his own wife, it will always be political.  Anora is at least the devil you know.

#27
Giggles_Manically

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I really doubt that their is a best outcome for Fereldan, like Bhelen is the best for Orzamar.



Each side has both good and bad points.

Anora may do a great deal of good for Fereldan, but her not marrying can lead to another civil war.

Alistair is probably too focused on being popular to push through what is needed.



So I usually have both of them rule together since it takes out those two problems.

#28
KnightofPhoenix

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The obvious best outcome is have someone like Arcturus rule the pathetic excuse of a country. But noo. He has to disappear regardless of what he decides.

#29
Giggles_Manically

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GAIDER DEMANDS IT!

#30
Sarah1281

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The obvious best outcome is have someone like Arcturus rule the pathetic excuse of a country. But noo. He has to disappear regardless of what he decides.

Didn't he decide to run off with Morrigan into a mysterious mirror world? Image IPB

#31
KnightofPhoenix

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Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The obvious best outcome is have someone like Arcturus rule the pathetic excuse of a country. But noo. He has to disappear regardless of what he decides.

Didn't he decide to run off with Morrigan into a mysterious mirror world? Image IPB


Because he knew the Awakening epilogue was going to make him disapear anyhow, so might as well disapear to raise the OGB, who can hopefully create a new Thedasian Imperium.

I would feel sorry for the boy, but the kid is a freakin god, so no excuses.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 décembre 2010 - 03:46 .


#32
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Reika wrote...

I know everyone says that Anora is a brilliant ruler, but you really don't hear about that until the Landsmeet. I know she said she actually ruled while Cailan was on the throne, but you don't hear anything like that until you get to Anora. I know Cailan was a glory-bound idiot in Ostagar, but you only heard comments about him and battle.

I don't remember really hearing anything bad about him being a king.

And quite frankly after seeing most of the game with Anora hiding behind daddy (sorry, that's just the way I see it) and she's what? Almost 30? I have a very hard time believing she'd actually be a good queen, ruling with either an M!Cousland or Alistair or on her own.


A lot of the NPCs can be talked to or heard gossiping about Anora and about Cailan throughout the game.  At Ostagar, in the Gnawed Noble Tavern, other places my Warden traveled.  And of course Eamon had things to say about Anora being a capable ruler.

So I'm assuming you didn't pay much attention to the background characters, the un-named NPCs or some of the ambient conversations in game.  I make that assumption because the game made it clear to me that Anora was the real ruler of Fereldan well before the Landsmeet.  I see what you are getting at about Cailan, but I was able to draw conclusions that he was a figurehead riding on other people's backs.  Arl Howe's exposition helped.  At first I thought it was just Loghain, but as I spoke to people in Denerim I put it together that he also rode Anora's back.

Anyway, my point is not to slam you.  My point is different people explore the game to different levels of detail.  The details were there - you just did not explore them and you probably ran right by / interrupted ambient conversations.  You have thought about the topic and the lore at your level.  But you missed a lot.

You should see my buddy - he thought about it on the level of, "OK - Loghain's bad like Denethor. Alistair is the real king like Aragorn.  Got it.  Lets kill some darkspawn."  I wish I was as blissful as he, but at the same time I wish he could really relish all the details I did during the 13 months I played.

Modifié par Hanz54321, 26 décembre 2010 - 04:17 .


#33
Shinobu

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Addai67 wrote...

I have most often made Alistair sole ruler.  The only time I married him off to Anora was when the Warden remained his mistress (a Dalish elf, she was rebuilding the Wardens so not a daily presence at court).  I just really like King Alistair.  I'm too fond of his father not to.  ^_^

From one standpoint, sparing Loghain and marrying hardened Alistair to Anora is an "economical" outcome.  Anora living out her days in a monastery or being executed is a waste, and so is Alistair going off to souse in the Free Marches.  I wouldn't call it a happy outcome, though.  There's ample evidence that political marriages have a down side.  OTOH, even if he can choose his own wife, it will always be political.  Anora is at least the devil you know.


Yes, I (and, by extension, my canon PC) tend to be rather Utilitarian ("best" outcome for the most people = "good," calculated in a rather cold-blooded fashion). You're right, King Alistair's choice of queen could be good or bad, depending on her abilities. Anora is at least a capable woman and can help smooth the transition. Again, whether or not one believes they can love one another must factor into calculations of Alistair's eventual happiness.

I'm not a big fan of Maric (the novels did not convince me to like him -- maybe I'm in the minority) but also find King Alistair appealing. I think that he, unlike Anora, has seen enough suffering to make him an empathetic ruler and he still has enough of a chivalrous streak to use his power to actually protect "the little guys." I don't see him turning a blind eye to purges of the Alienages as Anora did, for example.

#34
NuclearSerendipity

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Well, I confess I still wonder whether the choices I made in my first play through the game were really the best I could take, or the ones most appropriated for my character. As usual, lots of people raise plenty of good points in favor of choices I didn't take and against the ones I took, which usually just gets me more anxious to see how these choices will turn out in the following games. :P At any rate, I will try to point out the reasons why I took the choices I did with my character, not intending so much to defend them as the best ones as to clarify why I did take them.


At first, I was considering marrying Anora with Alistair, if he somehow acquiesced to it. But, idealistic as my character was, in a manner of speaking, he wasn't willing to force Alistair into the throne, if there was another viable choice (and not just an alternative that would screw everything up), so as he started to figure out that Eamon's concerns about Queen Anora being elected queen weren't really legitimate concerns, but rather focused on nearly superstitious beliefs about Alistair's "bloodline" and nobility in general, and after he realized there was no way (not-hardened) Alistair would accept being king (he could do it, but that's not quite the same as accepting it, since it would never be what he truly wanted to be and to do), even less so while marrying with Anora, he decided to support her. In fact, one of my character's greatest disappointments was to see whom he considered his best friend, and whom he believed to be capable of accepting whatever it took to do the right thing, reacting so childish and cowardly to the prospect of being king. He thought Alistair was stronger than that.


But the worst, really, was at the Landsmeet, after my character defeated Loghain in the duel. Again, since he's idealistic in a manner of speaking, he saw no point in killing Loghain, since he didn't seem to be any more of an immediate threat, could do so much more good alive and did not seem to fake his willingness to start anew. Of course, though, that's when Alistair throws a hissy fit and starts to say things that seemed outrageous and unbelievable for my character, coming out from Alistair's mouth - the worst of them being when he said that if it was what it took to kill Loghain, he'd be king. At this point, there's alot going on: If Alistair becomes king alone, he kills Loghain, and, most likely, doesn't handle the role of king with the maturity that would be required to do it. If Anora becomes queen, Alistair leaves to never return, and one valuable and worthy, even if undoubtfully imature Grey Warden, not to mention my Warden's best friend, leaves forever and suffers a lot with his own condition. So my Warden tries one last time to suggest that Anora and Alistair could marry... In vain, obviously.  But, in that case, he simply couldn't give Alistair the throne, after all of what just happened.  If he did, he would be condoning Alistair's petty vengeance and allowing him to do it, killing needlessly (in his opinion) a man for the sake of his veangeance. He couldn't allow Loghain, or any man, to be killed on such petty basis - even less so by the man which was supposed to become the king. Behavior is crucial, and condoning such an act of vengeance would be condoning its correlated behavior, and, even worse, condoning that a king figure behaves in such a way - which would necessarily affect the way Ferelden was ruled, because it would have to do with the way its king behaved.  In a nutshell, he couldn't let a man be killed just for the sake of vengeance, and he couldn't give Ferelden to what seemed to be unstable and imature hands. On the other hand, there had been given already plenty of reasons why Anora would be an excellent ruller, and even though she did seem to behave sometimes a little too pragmatically (like her father, in a way), she did seem a much better choice to Ferelden, and no one had to get needlessly killed in order to put her on the throne. So, in the end, my character put her in the throne, which got him the minor disappointment of seeing Anora order Alistair's execution - which just corroborated how overly-pragmatic she could be at times. Of course, my Warden didn't allow it, and Alistair left forever... Not the happiest of the resolutions, but he had a hard time picturing himself doing it differently. It just seemed inacceptable to condone a behavior such as Alistair's, even less so making one that behaves as such king of Ferelden.

As for the Dark Ritual, it was a really hard decision for my character... He really loved Morrigan, and he did believe her intentions were good up to some point (he did believe she was trying to save him too), and beyond that point, weren't evil. But there seemed to be something about doing this ritual that went beyond the scope of her intentions... A kind of magic that had everything to get out of control and have nasty consequences. And this wasn't some kind of Chantry fanatism on how blood magic is evil and and blood mages are therefore evil as well. Even as a mage raised in the Tower, my mage had absolutely nothing against apostates and found it outrageous that they were blindly hunted by the Chantry (case in point, he had a relationship with Morrigan and would later on become really close friends with Anders). And he didn't believe mages who dabbled in or used Blood Magic were automatically evil (again, case in point, Morrigan, or even Jowan). But he did believe that there was something inherently... wrong about Blood Magic, and inherently dangerous. Because blood magic always involved, by principle, forcing control over some another being or using in a too invasive manner one's life source  - therefore being always wrong in at least one fundamental way. Not only that, this kind of magic seemed to him to always stimulated actions and behavior which could eventually, as these actions piled on and these behaviors got further rooted in the person, lead someone astray or have direful consequences, at the very least.  So that was one reason to not believing that the DR would end up well. But there was also plenty of others: who was to say what this Old God would be like? He did believe when Morrigan said he wouldn't carry the taint of the evil that once took him, but that didn't mean that he couldn't be evil, or at least dangerous, for any other number of reasons. This was an Old God we were talking about: how could she be sure that he would behave the way she expected him to or desired him to? What could it mean, more precisely, that he would be an "avatar" of Freedom? Did it mean that no one would be able to stop him from being free? Or did it mean that he could do whatever he wanted to anyone, no matter what the consequences were for them? And just how easily could the first type of freedom become the second or even be intrinsically related to it? What's to stop an irrestricted force to become a tyrannic force? Wasn't that, after all, precisely what the Old Gods had become before, with the Tevinter Empire? (Not entirely sure on this one: nevertheless, the Old Gods became, with the darkspawn at least, the very embodiment of this tyrannic force) What's to say history wouldn't repeat itself, then? Not to mention just the questions about how the OGB would fit up to that moment to Flemeth's plans, which there was no way to tell whether they would be good or bad for Ferelden, but seemed to involve a lot of danger, considering how Flemeth didn't seem to really care about anyone's well being other than her own, even when she saves you at Ostagar. Morrigan seemed simply too over-confident on her ability to handle the OGB, and my Warden couldn't be just as confident as her. So, finally - it was, after all, a really hard decision - he decided not to do it. Whatever they had to defeat now would be definetely defeated, and there would be no chance of it becoming an unfinished business. 

Of course, that meant my Warden not only lost his best friend, but also the woman he loved. He obviously didn't want any of that... But he wasn't willing to give up on his principles and make his decisions based on what he wanted, instead of doing it based on what he thought and felt was right.

Finally, when it came to the AD, he let Loghain do it. It might've been a coward decision... But if he did think that it was best for Loghain to be alive instead of him, he would've done it instead. But truth is, he was worried about what could be the long-term consequences of Loghain's survival, worried that he might again, for the sake of Ferelden, go astray and do yet another terrible and irreversible mistakes. While he was sure Loghain admitted his mistakes, he didn't feel as if Loghain had changed so much that he wouldn't do something a like again. And he felt like there had to be someone around precisely to fight and try to avoid this kind of mistake, mistake's based on far too extremists outlooks - someone had to fight to not let things be taken too far.

Nevertheless, he wouldn't ever force Loghain into doing it, not even suggest him to - perhaps he wouldn't even allow Loghain to do it if he felt he was doing it reluctantly, if he felt he was not at ease choosing to do it. But Loghain seemed earnest on his willingness to do it, not having any expectations that someone else should do it instead. He seemed completely satisfied with his decision. And it was also a very meaningful decision: one that would allow him to "repent" for what he had done, to do something for the actual good of Ferelden, something undoubtedly so - and there was obviously nothing else he would want more, even his own life. There was definetely nothing he would consider a better way to go than sacrificing himself in order to save Ferelden - it was all he needed to feel his life was worth it. In the end, letting him sacrifice himself for Ferelden seemed to do alot more good to him than letting him live while having lost perhaps the only opportunity he would have of doing something for Ferelden that'd be in the same level or even beyond the mistakes he made. And it didn't seem like something that just my character seemed to think was best for him: it seemed to be what Loghain himself thought was best. It didn't feel to him so much as if he was deciding what was best for Loghain, as it felt to him that he was acknowledging what Loghain considered best for himself. There are fates worse than death - and death at such circumstances seemed to be precisely what Loghain needed to get exactly the closure to his life that he wanted. And, beyond what was good to Loghain, it was also a way to redeem one of Ferelden's heroes - a way to make Ferelden not lose one of it's rolemodels of inspiration and belief in their nation, one which wouldn't be achieved through illusion, but rather through an actual redemption of said hero. So, finally, my Warden decided to allow him to take the final blow.

Were these the best choices I could've taken with my character? As I said, there's plenty I wonder about when I think about it - specially because, as it happens the most, the first playthrough is the one in which you make your character choices based on the choices you would make. Sadly, a lot of game restrictions and mechanisms make it hard to do everything the way one would've wanted to, with just as much attention to the details or with as much exploration of the possibilites as one would've desired. Nevertheless, those are the choices I deemed best in my first playthrough, and some of the main reasons why I took them. :)

P.S.: Sorry for the massive post. :P

#35
Shinobu

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Whoa, epic post!

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Well, I confess I still wonder whether the choices I made in my first play through the game were really the best I could take, or the ones most appropriated for my character.

Eamon's concerns about Queen Anora being elected queen weren't really legitimate concerns, but rather focused on nearly superstitious beliefs about Alistair's "bloodline" and nobility in general, and after he realized there was no way (not-hardened) Alistair would accept being king ... he decided to support her. In fact, one of my character's greatest disappointments was to see whom he considered his best friend, and whom he believed to be capable of accepting whatever it took to do the right thing, reacting so childish and cowardly to the prospect of being king. He thought Alistair was stronger than that.

he saw no point in killing Loghain... that's when Alistair throws a hissy fit and starts to say things that seemed outrageous and unbelievable... At this point, there's alot going on: If Alistair becomes king alone, he kills Loghain, and, most likely, doesn't handle the role of king with the maturity that would be required to do it. ... So, in the end, my character put her in the throne... and Alistair left forever... Not the happiest of the resolutions...

As for the Dark Ritual, it was a really hard decision for my character...  But there seemed to be something about doing this ritual that went beyond the scope of her intentions... A kind of magic that had everything to get out of control and have nasty consequences. ... he decided not to do it. Whatever they had to defeat now would be definetely defeated, and there would be no chance of it becoming an unfinished business. 

Of course, that meant my Warden not only lost his best friend, but also the woman he loved. He obviously didn't want any of that... But he wasn't willing to give up on his principles and make his decisions based on what he wanted, instead of doing it based on what he thought and felt was right.

Finally, when it came to the AD, he let Loghain do it. ...  he was worried about what could be the long-term consequences of Loghain's survival, worried that he might again, for the sake of Ferelden, go astray and do yet another terrible and irreversible mistakes. ... And he felt like there had to be someone around precisely to fight and try to avoid this kind of mistake, mistake's based on far too extremists outlooks - someone had to fight to not let things be taken too far.

And... it was also a way to redeem one of Ferelden's heroes - a way to make Ferelden not lose one of it's rolemodels of inspiration and belief in their nation, one which wouldn't be achieved through illusion, but rather through an actual redemption of said hero. So, finally, my Warden decided to allow him to take the final blow.

Were these the best choices I could've taken with my character?


From an in-game perspective, these were all really honorable and deeply considered choices that were pretty much the best you could do with unhardened Alistair. From a meta-gaming perspective other choices would have led to happier outcomes, but without cheating (as I did) who could know that not choosing that one line ("Everyone is out for themselves...") outside of Goldanna's house would cause the whole outcome to go all wahooni-shaped?

#36
KyleTheArtist

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I always made Anora Queen. Even hardened Alistair never seemed very fond of kingly business and besides, I don't like the whole marrying Alistair thing. Always made him tag along with me afterwards.



Then again I only played with one character XD

#37
Shadow of Light Dragon

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What gets me is that no matter who ends up on Ferelden's throne, by the time of DA2 there's war and the alienage still hasn't been freakin' repaired since the Blight (even if your CE/Shianni/Soris is a bann!).



So all outcomes = sad times for Ferelden.

#38
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This probably won't go down too well, but I honestly think that the best thing for Alistair is to allow him to take the final blow against the AD.



I personally see Alistair as a tragic figure. I spend the whole game listening to Alistair's stories with regard to his childhood and am constantly being told by him that he does not want to be king. All through these dialogues I hear in Alistair's voice a tone of self-pity that annoys me greatly. So I like to let Alistair go out in a blaze of glory because I really think that that is what he wants. I think Alistair has had enough of life and is looking to the AD as an exit strategy to fulfil his death wish.



I think that Ferelden benefits most from having Anora as its queen so I will probably continue to allow her to take the thrown.

#39
Shinobu

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KyleTheArtist wrote...

I always made Anora Queen. Even hardened Alistair never seemed very fond of kingly business and besides, I don't like the whole marrying Alistair thing. Always made him tag along with me afterwards.

Then again I only played with one character XD


How do you feel about the DR? Does your character tell Alistair about the OGB? (I can see an "ignorance is bliss" thing working for him... full disclosure -- not so much.)

#40
Shinobu

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

What gets me is that no matter who ends up on Ferelden's throne, by the time of DA2 there's war and the alienage still hasn't been freakin' repaired since the Blight (even if your CE/Shianni/Soris is a bann!).

So all outcomes = sad times for Ferelden.


Really? *Arrrgh!* But, from a game developer standpoint, it probably couldn't be much different. Many DA:O imports wouldn't have an elvish Bann, plus if everything is "fixed" at the beginning of DA2 there's no conflict/story. This is where the whole "your choices affect everything" runs up against the reality of making one continuous game, I guess.

#41
Shinobu

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Glaucon wrote...

This probably won't go down too well, but I honestly think that the best thing for Alistair is to allow him to take the final blow against the AD.

I personally see Alistair as a tragic figure. I spend the whole game listening to Alistair's stories with regard to his childhood and am constantly being told by him that he does not want to be king. All through these dialogues I hear in Alistair's voice a tone of self-pity that annoys me greatly. So I like to let Alistair go out in a blaze of glory because I really think that that is what he wants. I think Alistair has had enough of life and is looking to the AD as an exit strategy to fulfil his death wish.

I think that Ferelden benefits most from having Anora as its queen so I will probably continue to allow her to take the thrown.


If it were just death, I'd definitely rank Alistair taking the blow above him being a bitter drunk (although it's possible he could meet a nice girl at an AA meeting later) or becoming unhardened King + Anora and Loghain alive. But, as an agnostic, being told "in the DAverse there are souls, and this destroys his" just gives me the willies.

#42
Moondoggie

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Any outcome where he is dead and does not inflict his foul person upon the world anymore via whining about Duncan XD

#43
CalJones

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For me, the best endings are hardenend Alistair + Anora ruling (beloved monarchs) with Loghain doing the sacrifice (I'm a sucker for redemption stories) or M.Cousland + Anora (golden age). Problem with the latter is Alistair ends up drunk or dead, which isn't my preference even if his "Kill him already!" pisses me off no end.

#44
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Moondoggie wrote...

Any outcome where he is dead and does not inflict his foul person upon the world anymore via whining about Duncan XD



Or... I could have put it like that  =]

#45
Sarah1281

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But, as an agnostic, being told "in the DAverse there are souls, and this destroys his" just gives me the willies.

Well, we don't really know it does that. All we know is that it kills the GW and the OG stops body-hopping. How in the world would anyone know that both souls are literally obliterated anyway? Have they managed to find a way to go past the Fade and speak to the spirits that have passed and gotten it confirmed for them that the souls are absolutely gone?

#46
ejoslin

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

What gets me is that no matter who ends up on Ferelden's throne, by the time of DA2 there's war and the alienage still hasn't been freakin' repaired since the Blight (even if your CE/Shianni/Soris is a bann!).

So all outcomes = sad times for Ferelden.


I recently fixed the slideshow so the city elf slides now trigger properly in all cases except one (when Alistair is granting the boon, the one where the warden is made Bann still doesn't trigger properly).  

They are...  bad.

Edit: I do agree in most circumstances, letting Alistair take the final blow is actually a mercy.  He most likely won't be able to have children so you're not going to keep the Theirin line alive past another 30 years anyway.  

Second edit: Being an agnostic/atheist doesn't really work in the DAO universe because people DO have non-physical presence, they can visit (willingly or through sleep) the fade, where demons and spirits live.  these things in this world are very real.

Whether you accept the Chantry's explanation of anything is up to you though.  However, people ARE more than just their physical form.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2010 - 04:26 .


#47
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I dislike the Dualism in DA:O. But I put up with it because it's just a game and I can't be bothered to invest my energies defeating such a nonsense of a philosophy when it's a fantasy to start with.

#48
Sarah1281

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Second edit: Being an agnostic/atheist doesn't really work in the DAO universe because people DO have non-physical presence, they can visit (willingly or through sleep) the fade, where demons and spirits live. these things in this world are very real.



Whether you accept the Chantry's explanation of anything is up to you though. However, people ARE more than just their physical form.

I disagree. Agnostics don't believe you can know the truth about whether deities exist or not and atheists don't believe that they exist at all. Yes, people travel to the Fade in their sleep. Yes, demons exist. Why does that mean that the Maker exists or any other god that created everything? You can believe that demons are real and that you have a spirit without needing to accept anything else at all.

#49
ejoslin

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Second edit: Being an agnostic/atheist doesn't really work in the DAO universe because people DO have non-physical presence, they can visit (willingly or through sleep) the fade, where demons and spirits live. these things in this world are very real.

Whether you accept the Chantry's explanation of anything is up to you though. However, people ARE more than just their physical form.

I disagree. Agnostics don't believe you can know the truth about whether deities exist or not and atheists don't believe that they exist at all. Yes, people travel to the Fade in their sleep. Yes, demons exist. Why does that mean that the Maker exists or any other god that created everything? You can believe that demons are real and that you have a spirit without needing to accept anything else at all.


While technically you are correct, the argument was being used that the idea of a "soul' was an issue for an agnostic and I was trying to address that, not argue over semantics.  Whether you call it a soul or a spirit or a presence or whatever, it does exist in this game.

Edit; I really did think the meaning of my post was clear.  I suppose I should have quoted.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2010 - 05:12 .


#50
Sarah1281

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I wasn't talking about semantics either. I could have used the word 'soul' just as easily, I was just using a synonym. In the world of DA, souls would exist for at least all sentient creatures they know of accept dwarves but that still doesn't mean agnosticism or atheism doesn't work. Agnosticism in particular is quite compatible with having a soul but not being able to prove anything more as even powerful Fade spirits have no idea.

Edit: Your post reminded me of the Leliana/Morrigan banter where Leliana can't believe that Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker since magic is real which is a very metagaming approach. Morrigan correctly points out that she can prove magic exists just like some form of a soul exists because of the Fade but anthing that cannot be proven does not necessarily follow, regardless of how connected they may be IRL.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 décembre 2010 - 05:34 .