231 réponses à ce sujet

[testing123]

 I'm a bit surprised so many think that an Alistair deathblow would be a mercy to him.  He never struck me as someone who was completely dissatisifed with his life.  The only time he actually volunteers himself for the killing blow is when he is in a romance with the warden correct?  I'd imagine he would have much preferred to go on living happily ever after with his significant warden.  Damn him.  Damn him and his chivalry! =P

He does get to be remembered as a hero, I guess.  Though if you have properly prepared him he can do even more good as a great king, no?

Perhaps I'm only so surprised because I once presented the idea that killing Loghain at the Landsmeet was a mercy to him and it didn't seem so well received.  I guess for most it's about the way the person is remembered? 

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't talking about semantics either. I could have used the word 'soul' just as easily, I was just using a synonym. In the world of DA, souls would exist for at least all sentient creatures they know of accept dwarves but that still doesn't mean agnosticism or atheism doesn't work. Agnosticism in particular is quite compatible with having a soul but not being able to prove anything more as even powerful Fade spirits have no idea.

Edit: Your post reminded me of the Leliana/Morrigan banter where Leliana can't believe that Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker since magic is real which is a very metagaming approach. Morrigan correctly points out that she can prove magic exists just like some form of a soul exists because of the Fade but anthing that cannot be proven does not necessarily follow, regardless of how connected they may be IRL.

Only because you're misunderstanding my point. I guess it's confusing because we are talking, I believe, at cross purposes.

Edit: To make this clear as possible, I was not speaking of a warden being an agnostic or an atheist.  I was talking about the player.  That the game world is very VERY different than our real world, that there is a spiritual realm that does exist.

IRL I'm an atheist.  This does not cause me a problem in DAO, there being an actual soul or whatever and a spiritual realm that is a real place.  I allow, despite my actual beliefs, for the rules that are present in the game world.  This does not mean that you, as a player, have to accept what the Chantry says, in the game, as the actual rules of the spirit realm.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[ejoslin]

jvee wrote...

 I'm a bit surprised so many think that an Alistair deathblow would be a mercy to him.  He never struck me as someone who was completely dissatisifed with his life.  The only time he actually volunteers himself for the killing blow is when he is in a romance with the warden correct?  I'd imagine he would have much preferred to go on living happily ever after with his significant warden.  Damn him.  Damn him and his chivalry! =P

He does get to be remembered as a hero, I guess.  Though if you have properly prepared him he can do even more good as a great king, no?

Perhaps I'm only so surprised because I once presented the idea that killing Loghain at the Landsmeet was a mercy to him and it didn't seem so well received.  I guess for most it's about the way the person is remembered? 

wrong.  He doesn't give the warden a choice if he's in a romance or still in love with the warden, but for any other warden, he pleads to be able to take that blow.  He doesn't want to be king, he feels Anora would be a better ruler (unfortunately, the vanilla game has all these dialogs even for Gray Warden Alistair as well), and he wants to take the blow.  He wants to save the warden's life as well.

He actually says the greatest contribution he could make to Ferelden is to take that blow -- it would be his finest act as king.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[testing123]

ejoslin wrote...
wrong.  He doesn't give the warden a choice if he's in a romance or still in love with the warden, but for any other warden, he pleads to be able to take that blow.  He doesn't want to be king, he feels Anora would be a better ruler (unfortunately, the vanilla game has all these dialogs even for Gray Warden Alistair as well), and he wants to take the blow.  He wants to save the warden's life as well.

He actually says the greatest contribution he could make to Ferelden is to take that blow -- it would be his finest act as king.

Ah.  I've yet to make him king, so I've never gotten that comment.

[ejoslin]

jvee wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
wrong.  He doesn't give the warden a choice if he's in a romance or still in love with the warden, but for any other warden, he pleads to be able to take that blow.  He doesn't want to be king, he feels Anora would be a better ruler (unfortunately, the vanilla game has all these dialogs even for Gray Warden Alistair as well), and he wants to take the blow.  He wants to save the warden's life as well.

He actually says the greatest contribution he could make to Ferelden is to take that blow -- it would be his finest act as king.

Ah.  I've yet to make him king, so I've never gotten that comment.

Actually, you will get that comment no matter what if you pick the correct dialog choices in the vanilla game if the dark ritual wasn't done and Alistair is with you.  Before you strike the final blow, no matter what, he stops you, and asks that he be able to take it instead.  He will list many reasons why he wants to -- from saving the warden's life to wanting to be a good king.  if he wasn't hardened, he will talk about how horrible a king he would be; hardened, he will still say that Anora would be far better.  if he's in love with or still in love with the warden, he won't give her a choice and he WILL take that blow himself, but for any warden, it's very clear he wants to be the one.

Getting the king dialog is just a problem with all his end game dialogs in the vanilla game -- Gray Warden Alistair is barely addressed at all, and for a few major conversations, the dialog if he's in the party and not king just does not exist.  However, he does have other reasons other than not wanting to be king for wanting to take that blow.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[testing123]

ejoslin wrote...
Actually, you will get that comment no matter what if you pick the correct dialog choices in the vanilla game if the dark ritual wasn't done and Alistair is with you.  Before you strike the final blow, no matter what, he stops you, and asks that he be able to take it instead.  He will list many reasons why he wants to -- from saving the warden's life to wanting to be a good king.  if he wasn't hardened, he will talk about how horrible a king he would be; hardened, he will still say that Anora would be far better.  if he's in love with or still in love with the warden, he won't give her a choice and he WILL take that blow himself, but for any warden, it's very clear he wants to be the one.

Getting the king dialog is just a problem with all his end game dialogs in the vanilla game -- Gray Warden Alistair is barely addressed at all, and for a few major conversations, the dialog if he's in the party and not king just does not exist.  However, he does have other reasons other than not wanting to be king for wanting to take that blow.

Well that is kind of lame, I usually do the dark ritual but don't tell him about it, you would think it would still trigger.  I'm sad that I missed out on that.  Thanks for the extended explanation, I was initially confused as to why he would only speak up under certain circumstances.  It didn't make a lot of sense for his character the way I had interpreted what you said.

So as I understand it, if he is in a relationship or at least still in love with the warden he takes the deathblow no matter what.  If there is no dark ritual, he pleads with the warden to be the one but you can still override him?

[FellowerOfOdin]

Shinobu wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

1) Yes.

2) Yes, absolutely. Giving Morrigan such a powerful child is the dumbest and least responsible thing one could do. Would you give your child a gun? Why would you give Morrigan such a child then?

3) Redeemer is the best ending for Ferelden as an old war hero gets redeemed from his sins and Ferelden is saved at the same time while the Grey Wardens still have their strongest member (the player) among their ranks...everyone is happy. Even Alistair will man it up and acknowledge that your decision was the best one could have made.

The only problem for Alistair is that he has to look at the BDS (Big Darn Statue) of Loghain from his window for the rest of his life.

When Alistair and Anora rule together, Loghain does not get a statue

[Shinobu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But, as an agnostic, being told "in the DAverse there are souls, and this destroys his" just gives me the willies.

Well, we don't really know it does that. All we know is that it kills the GW and the OG stops body-hopping. How in the world would anyone know that both souls are literally obliterated anyway? Have they managed to find a way to go past the Fade and speak to the spirits that have passed and gotten it confirmed for them that the souls are absolutely gone?

One of the loading screens says outright that the Grey Warden's soul is destroyed. They just want to make that absolutely clear to anyone who thinks "well, in 30 years I'll go eat pie in the Fade with Alistair." Nope, not happening.

[Shinobu]

ejoslin wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I wasn't talking about semantics either. I could have used the word 'soul' just as easily, I was just using a synonym. In the world of DA, souls would exist for at least all sentient creatures they know of accept dwarves but that still doesn't mean agnosticism or atheism doesn't work. Agnosticism in particular is quite compatible with having a soul but not being able to prove anything more as even powerful Fade spirits have no idea.

Edit: Your post reminded me of the Leliana/Morrigan banter where Leliana can't believe that Morrigan doesn't believe in the Maker since magic is real which is a very metagaming approach. Morrigan correctly points out that she can prove magic exists just like some form of a soul exists because of the Fade but anthing that cannot be proven does not necessarily follow, regardless of how connected they may be IRL.

Only because you're misunderstanding my point. I guess it's confusing because we are talking, I believe, at cross purposes.

Edit: To make this clear as possible, I was not speaking of a warden being an agnostic or an atheist.  I was talking about the player.  That the game world is very VERY different than our real world, that there is a spiritual realm that does exist.

IRL I'm an atheist.  This does not cause me a problem in DAO, there being an actual soul or whatever and a spiritual realm that is a real place.  I allow, despite my actual beliefs, for the rules that are present in the game world.  This does not mean that you, as a player, have to accept what the Chantry says, in the game, as the actual rules of the spirit realm.

I think my meaning wasn't clear. IRL, I am an agnostic and don't know if there are souls. My PC believes in souls because they obviously exist in the DAverse (we will not get into the Maker). As a player, I believe that IF souls are known to exist destroying them is EXTREMELY SUBOPTIMAL. Therefore, I cannot accept destroying Alistair's soul as being a "good" outcome for him. Whether or not death is a good outcome for him, I'm open to debating.

Modifié par Shinobu, 27 décembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Shinobu]

ejoslin wrote...

jvee wrote...

 I'm a bit surprised so many think that an Alistair deathblow would be a mercy to him.  He never struck me as someone who was completely dissatisifed with his life.  The only time he actually volunteers himself for the killing blow is when he is in a romance with the warden correct?  I'd imagine he would have much preferred to go on living happily ever after with his significant warden.  Damn him.  Damn him and his chivalry! =P

He does get to be remembered as a hero, I guess.  Though if you have properly prepared him he can do even more good as a great king, no?

Perhaps I'm only so surprised because I once presented the idea that killing Loghain at the Landsmeet was a mercy to him and it didn't seem so well received.  I guess for most it's about the way the person is remembered? 

wrong.  He doesn't give the warden a choice if he's in a romance or still in love with the warden, but for any other warden, he pleads to be able to take that blow.  He doesn't want to be king, he feels Anora would be a better ruler (unfortunately, the vanilla game has all these dialogs even for Gray Warden Alistair as well), and he wants to take the blow.  He wants to save the warden's life as well.

He actually says the greatest contribution he could make to Ferelden is to take that blow -- it would be his finest act as king.

Eh, it's situational suicide, IMO. I don't think Alistair is a depressive who wants to end it all. It's just that given the fact someone has to die, he volunteers to take one for the team because he values himself less than he values the Warden. Whether you think it's a mercy to let him is up to you.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Shinobu wrote...

Whoa, epic post!

From an in-game perspective, these were all really honorable and deeply considered choices that were pretty much the best you could do with unhardened Alistair. From a meta-gaming perspective other choices would have led to happier outcomes, but without cheating (as I did) who could know that not choosing that one line ("Everyone is out for themselves...") outside of Goldanna's house would cause the whole outcome to go all wahooni-shaped?

Gee, thanks! And yeah, one of the most troublesome things for me in game dialogue (but one that really can't be blamed upon the devs, since, really, how would you fix it?) is how there's a huge gap between what you intend to mean with a given dialogue option and what the game actually takes as what is meant. I've more than once chosen a line that I intended as a joke (and believed were intented to be a joke - apparently, I see humor where there's none ) only to find out the game interpreted it as a serious line, which pissed off whoever I was talking to. (I know there are times you can be sarcastic and offend nevertheless, but that wasn't the case. It's not like the NPCs reacted as if they were saying "not funny", but rather as if they were saying "how can you think that?"). And even when the dialogue option actually goes accordingly to what you mean, it only does so in a restricted away (and again, how could it be different?). Sure, I wanted to be nice to Alistair and not just say something that seemed so cold and bitter as "Everyone is out for themselves...", but that didn't mean I didn't want Alistair to actually look out for himself too. But there's only so much lines and choices a game can offer you... It's not RL, after all.

Then again, it was I who thought that line sounded bitter and cold... I guess another key reason for such a gap between what you mean and what the game means is that dialogue lines have no tone whatsoever, so you can't know for sure, sometimes, what tone the game has in store for a given line.

[Shinobu]

ejoslin wrote...

I recently fixed the slideshow so the city elf slides now trigger properly in all cases except one (when Alistair is granting the boon, the one where the warden is made Bann still doesn't trigger properly).  

They are...  bad.

Can you elaborate? I've seen the ones about the Bann getting stoned to death and the riots but am curious what else can go wrong.

[Shinobu]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Gee, thanks! And yeah, one of the most troublesome things for me in game dialogue (but one that really can't be blamed upon the devs, since, really, how would you fix it?) is how there's a huge gap between what you intend to mean with a given dialogue option and what the game actually takes as what is meant. I've more than once chosen a line that I intended as a joke (and believed were intented to be a joke - apparently, I see humor where there's none ) only to find out the game interpreted it as a serious line, which pissed off whoever I was talking to. (I know there are times you can be sarcastic and offend nevertheless, but that wasn't the case. It's not like the NPCs reacted as if they were saying "not funny", but rather as if they were saying "how can you think that?"). And even when the dialogue option actually goes accordingly to what you mean, it only does so in a restricted away (and again, how could it be different?). Sure, I wanted to be nice to Alistair and not just say something that seemed so cold and bitter as "Everyone is out for themselves...", but that didn't mean I didn't want Alistair to actually look out for himself too. But there's only so much lines and choices a game can offer you... It's not RL, after all.

Then again, it was I who thought that line sounded bitter and cold... I guess another key reason for such a gap between what you mean and what the game means is that dialogue lines have no tone whatsoever, so you can't know for sure, sometimes, what tone the game has in store for a given line.

No, I thought so, too. Which is why I didn't choose it when left to my own devices. But later I learned about hardening and "cheated" by going back and choosing it. I'm sure I would have ended up very sad if I had continued with unhardened Alistair.

[Sarah1281]

Shinobu wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But, as an agnostic, being told "in the DAverse there are souls, and this destroys his" just gives me the willies.

Well, we don't really know it does that. All we know is that it kills the GW and the OG stops body-hopping. How in the world would anyone know that both souls are literally obliterated anyway? Have they managed to find a way to go past the Fade and speak to the spirits that have passed and gotten it confirmed for them that the souls are absolutely gone?

One of the loading screens says outright that the Grey Warden's soul is destroyed. They just want to make that absolutely clear to anyone who thinks "well, in 30 years I'll go eat pie in the Fade with Alistair." Nope, not happening.

The loading slide saying that proves nothing. The loading slides are not 100% unbiased and accurate. Since no one in Ferelden or Thedas knows what happens, what is the loading screen supposed to say? 'The one who kills the Archdemon just dies but to be melodramatic people refer to it as having their soul destroyed'? 

@Ejoslin: I still don't get what you mean. You're saying that the character could be agnostic or atheist but the player can't be about the world? Why ever not? Just because IRL souls are usually linked with a deity does not mean that in DA having a soul or something similar that goes through the Fade equals an existent deity. The devs put quite a bit of effort in so that every single 'it was the Maker' aspect of the game had a perfectly reasonable 'no it wasn't' explanation and I don't see why they'd bother if soul=Maker.

There is a realm where demons and fade spirits live and that humans, elves, whatever go to when they sleep and perhaps pass through when they die. That means that...there is a realm where demons and fade spirits live and that humans, elves, whatever go to when they sleep and perhaps pass through when they die. It doesn't mean anything else and that's more about magic than it is about the truth of DA religion.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 27 décembre 2010 - 08:12 .

[Shinobu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 The loading slide saying that proves nothing. The loading slides are not 100% unbiased and accurate.

Please give evidence of them being incorrect and/or biased. Otherwise, I will believe what they tell me. There is no reason for them to say anything regarding the US unless it is to clarify something the developers think is not explicit enough in the game. Must I get the Word of Gaider?

[Sarah1281]

Shinobu wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 The loading slide saying that proves nothing. The loading slides are not 100% unbiased and accurate.

Please give evidence of them being incorrect and/or biased. Otherwise, I will believe what they tell me. There is no reason for them to say anything regarding the US unless it is to clarify something the developers think is not explicit enough in the game. Must I get the Word of Gaider?

By all means, believe what you want. I'm not about to go through the game and go from area to area writing down all the loading slides to try and prove something as that would be a gigantic waste of time. I just don't see that 'the loading slides said so' is an ironclad argument for souls being literally obliterated. They're not even really part of the game, just something to read (usually summing up what's been happening) while the areas are loading. The loading slide referring to the US doesn't need to be clarified. Riordan said 'souls will be destroyed' and that sounds pretty clear. He has no way of knowing, but he was hardly cryptic.

Why in the world WOULD it be obliterated? I can understand a body not being able to handle having two souls in it and dying and that the two souls would be treated as any two dead souls would be but it makes little sense for them to have been absolutely destroyed.

[errant_knight]

Shinobu wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

jvee wrote...

 I'm a bit surprised so many think that an Alistair deathblow would be a mercy to him.  He never struck me as someone who was completely dissatisifed with his life.  The only time he actually volunteers himself for the killing blow is when he is in a romance with the warden correct?  I'd imagine he would have much preferred to go on living happily ever after with his significant warden.  Damn him.  Damn him and his chivalry! =P

He does get to be remembered as a hero, I guess.  Though if you have properly prepared him he can do even more good as a great king, no?

Perhaps I'm only so surprised because I once presented the idea that killing Loghain at the Landsmeet was a mercy to him and it didn't seem so well received.  I guess for most it's about the way the person is remembered? 

wrong.  He doesn't give the warden a choice if he's in a romance or still in love with the warden, but for any other warden, he pleads to be able to take that blow.  He doesn't want to be king, he feels Anora would be a better ruler (unfortunately, the vanilla game has all these dialogs even for Gray Warden Alistair as well), and he wants to take the blow.  He wants to save the warden's life as well.

He actually says the greatest contribution he could make to Ferelden is to take that blow -- it would be his finest act as king.

Eh, it's situational suicide, IMO. I don't think Alistair is a depressive who wants to end it all. It's just that given the fact someone has to die, he volunteers to take one for the team because he values himself less than he values the Warden. Whether you think it's a mercy to let him is up to you.

Not mercy to me. To me the merciful thing is to harden him so he believes he's capable and can achieve happiness, then give him a meaningful function in life where he lives up to his potential. He likes helping people, he likes learning, and he has a good heart, and it pays off. I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn. So to me, the best possible ending for Alistair is to be king, either solo, or married to the PC. Luckily, this is good for Ferelden, too. It may not have a 'golden age' label slapped on it, but we aren't told anything negative about Alistair's rule at all. While it's possible that he and Anora could come to terms with each other, even develop some affection, I don't see him getting the kind of acceptance and understanding from her that he really needs to thrive. He has a better chance at that if he can find a bride for himself. I'm pretty sure that Ferelden's handsome, charming warden king can manage that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 décembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[testing123]

Shinobu wrote...
Eh, it's situational suicide, IMO. I don't think Alistair is a depressive who wants to end it all. It's just that given the fact someone has to die, he volunteers to take one for the team because he values himself less than he values the Warden. Whether you think it's a mercy to let him is up to you.

I agree with your characterization of Alistair, at least unhardened.  I'm just sorry that I haven't been able to see that dialogue yet.  Soon.

[ejoslin]

Shinobu wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I recently fixed the slideshow so the city elf slides now trigger properly in all cases except one (when Alistair is granting the boon, the one where the warden is made Bann still doesn't trigger properly).  

They are...  bad.

Can you elaborate? I've seen the ones about the Bann getting stoned to death and the riots but am curious what else can go wrong.

Shianni or the unnamed Bann being murdered isn't bad enough?  Even the pc as bann is not great (though at least the warden isn't killed) with the race riots and such.

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

@Ejoslin: I still don't get what you mean. You're saying that the character could be agnostic or atheist but the player can't be about the world? Why ever not? Just because IRL souls are usually linked with a deity does not mean that in DA having a soul or something similar that goes through the Fade equals an existent deity. The devs put quite a bit of effort in so that every single 'it was the Maker' aspect of the game had a perfectly reasonable 'no it wasn't' explanation and I don't see why they'd bother if soul=Maker.

There is a realm where demons and fade spirits live and that humans, elves, whatever go to when they sleep and perhaps pass through when they die. That means that...there is a realm where demons and fade spirits live and that humans, elves, whatever go to when they sleep and perhaps pass through when they die. It doesn't mean anything else and that's more about magic than it is about the truth of DA religion.

What?  I didn't say that at all.  All I said about the warden's religious beliefs is that they may or may not accept the Chantry's teaching as the truth but it's a bit irrelevant as it is shown that the people in thedas have a non-physical part (many would call this part a soul) that exists outside the body and can travel to this realm.  whether you accept the maker or not or the chantry's teachings or not doesn't have a bearing on whether the soul exists.  In this world, it does exist.  It's part of the game lore.  That doesn't mean the chantry was right or that a maker created everything.

Your bringing up the Morrigan and Leliana banter just illustrates to me that we had a huge miscommunication.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2010 - 09:14 .

[Sarah1281]

I see.

[ejoslin]

Naw, I reread my original post and I get why you were confused. I consider, by my standards, a belief in a spiritual realm a faith of sorts, even though it's clear in the game that this realm actually exists. But since this realm exists and people do have souls that can travel to this realm, I don't believe you can be a total agnostic or atheist in Thedas and that the player's (not the character's) religious beliefs or lack thereof should not make a difference as to that piece of game lore.

[Shinobu]

errant_knight wrote...

Not mercy to me. To me the merciful thing is to harden him so he believes he's capable and can achieve happiness, then give him a meaningful function in life where he lives up to his potential. He likes helping people, he likes learning, and he has a good heart, and it pays off. I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn. So to me, the best possible ending for Alistair is to be king, either solo, or married to the PC. Luckily, this is good for Ferelden, too. It may not have a 'golden age' label slapped on it, but we aren't told anything negative about Alistair's rule at all. While it's possible that he and Anora could come to terms with each other, even develop some affection, I don't see him getting the kind of acceptance and understanding from her that he really needs to thrive. He has a better chance at that if he can find a bride for himself. I'm pretty sure that Ferelden's handsome, charming warden king can manage that.

Well said. Thanks for posting, as your earlier comment was the one that started me wondering about this topic.

[Ryzaki]

>_>



You're saying someone can't be an atheist because the Fade exists?