231 réponses à ce sujet

[Shinobu]

Uhh. Can we get back on topic?

Let's agree that "souls" exist in Thedas and as far as the characters know (whether or not it is true), the Warden who takes the final blow has his or her "soul" destroyed.

If you want to have a discussion of religious beliefs, real or imaginary, please start your own thread.

[Shinobu]

ejoslin wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I recently fixed the slideshow so the city elf slides now trigger properly in all cases except one (when Alistair is granting the boon, the one where the warden is made Bann still doesn't trigger properly).  

They are...  bad.

Can you elaborate? I've seen the ones about the Bann getting stoned to death and the riots but am curious what else can go wrong.

Shianni or the unnamed Bann being murdered isn't bad enough?  Even the pc as bann is not great (though at least the warden isn't killed) with the race riots and such.

Oh, I was just wondering if there was worse stuff  that I wasn't aware of. It just makes me more certain that for a CE Warden having hardened Alistair on the throne is a must.

Modifié par Shinobu, 27 décembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[NuclearSerendipity]

As for the agnostic issue, I'm with Sarah on this one... I guess the thing is, there are many things to be agnostic about - just because your character can't be agnostic about souls, doesn't mean he can't be about the Maker, or the Dalish gods, or about the existence of many other Deities or entities. As far as I know, one can be agnostic even about a theory's truth. So, while some sort of thing that could be called soul or spirit undoubtedly exists in DA:O universe,that doesn't mean your Warden cannot be agnostic about the existence of other entities, or even about a theory that claims that one's soul can actually be destroyed.

Furthermore, souls aren't by definition a religious matter: if they undoubtedly exist, believing in souls isn't anymore a matter of creed, of religion: your belief in them isn't of a religious sort, since it has nothing to do with whether you belong to some sort of creed or not. Not being able to be agnostic about souls doesn't automatically makes you religious about them. Religion isn't so much about what you believe as it is about how you believe, or, in a nutshell: it isn't about belief, it's about faith. Believing in souls in DA:O isn't the same as having faith in them, since there's no need for faith: they're right there, and you can see in many ways that they do exist.

Either way, Sarah didn't mean that her character could be agnostic about the existence of souls, but rather, that her Warden could think there wasn't anything available for her to believe that a soul could actually be destroyed. It's not "agnosticism" about soul as an entity, but rather about a theory according to which souls can be destroyed.


That said, I do think, nevertheless, that there could be ways to know, or rather, have good reasons to believe, in-game, that a soul could be destroyed. It undoubtedly exists, and is in, a manner of speaking, "testable" - one can learn about it, whether through magic or some other means. Through this knowledge, one could have good reasons to believe that there are means through which a soul could be destroyed, even though he could only have indirect knowledge about this fact, since he wouldn't ever be able to watch a soul being completely destroyed. Just because you can't experience the fact first-handed, doesn't mean you can't have good, indirect grounds through which you could believe it actually happened. It'd be something analogous to believing in atoms, or even smaller particles, or perhaps even dark matter which can't be directly seen, but whose existence can be corroborated indirectly. I know it might seem like I'm taking it too far, but I just mean that there are ways in the DA:O universe through which one could learn important facts about what the soul is and how it works, therefore having good reason to believe that somethings could harm or even ultimately destroy it.

As for the slides, it really depends on whether you think they are offered as an in-game or meta-game perspective. If you think they're meant as pieces of common in-game lore, as if someone belonging to the world were actually providing it, then there's room for doubt about the souls being destroyed. However, if they are given from a meta-game perspective, like it isn't anyone inside the world that is providing them, but rather the devs themselves, there's no room left for the player to doubt what happened. He's being told then, by the  creators of the game, from a meta-game perspective, what indeed happened in the world. Hardly any reason to doubt, then.

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 27 décembre 2010 - 10:12 .

[NuclearSerendipity]

Shinobu wrote...

Uhh. Can we get back on topic?

Let's agree that "souls" exist in Thedas and as far as the characters know (whether or not it is true), the Warden who takes the final blow has his or her "soul" destroyed.

If you want to have a discussion of religious beliefs, real or imaginary, please start your own thread.

Oops, sorry, Shinobu - just read this after I had already posted.

I'll shush now.

[ejoslin]

wow, something SO tangential to the point I was making (or trying to) certainly raised a lot of controversy. People certainly do have strong feelings on the topic (far stronger than I do). The concept of a soul is a religious one, which is why I make the leap I do, but I don't care if people disagree and it is beside any point I was trying to make.

It's kind of on topic... there is a soul in this world, no matter what your religious beliefs or lack thereof, and it is believed by the Gray Wardens at the very least that it will be destroyed. And it's a sacrifice that Alistair is willing to make.  In fact, he asks to make it.  For female wardens, it actually is ultimately his decision as whether he does the dark ritual is in the end up to him (granted, it's not so difficult to talk him into it).

I honestly don't think it will matter in 30 years who ends up leader of Ferelden. The heir will not be of the royal bloodline, nor of Anora's. It may very well dissolve into civil war (especially if you save Redcliff and the map of Witchhunt is to be believed).

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 décembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

ejoslin wrote...

I recently fixed the slideshow so the city elf slides now trigger properly in all cases except one (when Alistair is granting the boon, the one where the warden is made Bann still doesn't trigger properly).  

They are...  bad.

What do they say? *very interested!*

Edit: *read the rest of the thread* Hmm. I see...this actually confirms something I've been meaning to do in FF. Thanks.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:24 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

wow, something SO tangential to the point I was making (or trying to) certainly raised a lot of controversy. People certainly do have strong feelings on the topic (far stronger than I do). The concept of a soul is a religious one, which is why I make the leap I do, but I don't care if people disagree and it is beside any point I was trying to make.

It's kind of on topic... there is a soul in this world, no matter what your religious beliefs or lack thereof, and it is believed by the Gray Wardens at the very least that it will be destroyed. And it's a sacrifice that Alistair is willing to make.  In fact, he asks to make it.  For female wardens, it actually is ultimately his decision as whether he does the dark ritual is in the end up to him (granted, it's not so difficult to talk him into it).

I honestly don't think it will matter in 30 years who ends up leader of Ferelden. The heir will not be of the royal bloodline, nor of Anora's. It may very well dissolve into civil war (especially if you save Redcliff and the map of Witchhunt is to be believed).

No actually it's not, it's a spiritual one. There is a difference. Seeing ghosts and believing in gods are not the same thing. The Fade doesn't make the Maker any more real. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on spirituality and one can be a spiritual atheist.

Though the OP asked so I'll not get into it.

Anyways I agree about the most likely dissolving into civil war. So honestly I see no best outcome.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[NuclearSerendipity]

ejoslin wrote...

wow, something SO tangential to the point
I was making (or trying to) certainly raised a lot of controversy.
People certainly do have strong feelings on the topic (far stronger than
I do). The concept of a soul is a religious one, which is why I make
the leap I do, but I don't care if people disagree and it is beside any
point I was trying to make.

It's kind of on topic... there is a
soul in this world, no matter what your religious beliefs or lack
thereof, and it is believed by the Gray Wardens at the very least that
it will be destroyed. And it's a sacrifice that Alistair is willing to
make.  In fact, he asks to make it.  For female wardens, it actually is
ultimately his decision as whether he does the dark ritual is in the end
up to him (granted, it's not so difficult to talk him into it).

I
honestly don't think it will matter in 30 years who ends up leader of
Ferelden. The heir will not be of the royal bloodline, nor of Anora's.
It may very well dissolve into civil war (especially if you save
Redcliff and the map of Witchhunt is to be believed).

No strong feelings, I was just hoping to clear the air. So much for that, apparently. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] But what I meant, to put it shortly, is precisely that there isn't just one concept of soul, and that there are ways of conceiving a soul and believing in its existence that aren't attached to religion - case in point, the way DA:O conceives it and the way Ferelden's inhabitants believe in it. What they understand as soul isn't something that is necessarily connected with some religion, the Chantry or otherwise. It's just that "non-physical form" with which many races travel through the fade, as well as the "non-physical entities" of said place. And their belief in the existence of such creatures aren't based on religious faith, but rather, on "matter-of-fact" experiences or common knowledge.

But, seriously, to stay on topic, when I read back where this began, it seems to be just a misunderstanding. When
Shinobu said that about being agnostic, I don't think she meant that this raised a question about whether souls exists in DA:O or not. She just meant that, being an agnostic, the prospect of knowing for sure that souls exists and then being faced with the possibility that Alistair's soul could be destroyed was simply too much to still be able to think that he sacrificing would be better for him than he becoming a drunk, since there would be no "afterlife" for him. And that when he actually would for sure get one in DA:O's universe, if he didn't kill the AD.

Nevertheless, there might still be worse fates than ultimate, no-afterlife death, even due to this afterlife. What if Alistair became a tormented spirit, forever haunted by having abandoned the Grey Wardens fight against the AD, reliving this moment time after time? Doesn't seem so much better as having one last moment of peace, doing what he felt like he should do for the sake of everyone.

I really dislike tha fact that Alistair goes away, if not hardened and if Loghain is spared. Of course it won't ever happen, but one of the things I really wanted was a DLC in which, if Alistair went away in your play, you could chase after him. I know, I know, it won't happen since there won't be any new DA:O DLC and it wouldn't have happened because it depends on the player having made specific choices in the game, but it's something my Warden would definetely do, given the time.

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:37 .

[ejoslin]

Edit: I should not post when in a pissy mood  So I just refer the people who want to debate me on spiritual vs religious even after i say I have zero interest in discussing it and since the OP asked that people don't discuss it (heh, I have no clue why people insist on making their points and then adding, "but of course, we shouldn't talk about this because the OP asked us to drop it").  

However, it's an interesting thing to think about, what actually DOES happen when the gray warden kills the AD.  Are both souls destroyed?  For that matter, in the afterlife, if not in a demon's domain, to people maintain their individual consciousness?

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:20 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

See what I bolded.  I have no interest in debating it -- all I did was explain why I make that leap.  I love it when people continue on, including making their point and saying, "but of course, the OP doesn't want to talk about this, so I'll drop it now."  It has no real bearing on the point I was trying to make anyway so it makes no difference to me if i win or lose the internet debate on this one.  Note, I'm not debating it here.  

I already said i misunderstood the first post; I also said the whole thing was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

Which is that it doesn't matter whether the warden or the player believe in the chantry, the maker, the Dalish gods, the man on the moon, or the invisible pink unicorn -- in DAO, souls exist.  I *THOUGHT* (incorrectly -- yes, I misread) someone was saying that as an agnostic they had an issue with the concept of a soul being destroyed (IOW, I thought they were talking about a soul being an act of faith rather than the fact that it is in DAO).  I personally find THAT an interesting topic -- what happens to the gray warden and AD soul.  Are they both destroyed as the Gray Wardens believe?  Is there any way to really confirm it?

Then why bring it up? Why make the leap that religion = spirituality? 

Though as for confirmation I don't know. Though I don't understand why the GW would even think both souls were destroyed unless they have some proof of it. In DAO they (souls) seem to be tangible so I suppose there would be a way to check. How exactly I have no clue. Probably some overly complicated fade ritual.

Though that would be fun. Going into the fade and talking with dead grey wardens.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

See what I bolded.  I have no interest in debating it -- all I did was explain why I make that leap.  I love it when people continue on, including making their point and saying, "but of course, the OP doesn't want to talk about this, so I'll drop it now."  It has no real bearing on the point I was trying to make anyway so it makes no difference to me if i win or lose the internet debate on this one.  Note, I'm not debating it here.  

I already said i misunderstood the first post; I also said the whole thing was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

Which is that it doesn't matter whether the warden or the player believe in the chantry, the maker, the Dalish gods, the man on the moon, or the invisible pink unicorn -- in DAO, souls exist.  I *THOUGHT* (incorrectly -- yes, I misread) someone was saying that as an agnostic they had an issue with the concept of a soul being destroyed (IOW, I thought they were talking about a soul being an act of faith rather than the fact that it is in DAO).  I personally find THAT an interesting topic -- what happens to the gray warden and AD soul.  Are they both destroyed as the Gray Wardens believe?  Is there any way to really confirm it?

Then why bring it up? Why make the leap that religion = spirituality? 

Though as for confirmation I don't know. Though I don't understand why the GW would even think both souls were destroyed unless they have some proof of it.

Heh, deleted my last post as it was too pissy, but it's determined to be here I guess.   I was responding to something completely different a few pages ago which was completely misunderstood (because *I* misunderstood the point i was replying to), and then the point i was making completely disregarded in favor of the whole "what is belief" debate.  If you want to debate the differences between religion, spirituality, what constitutes belief in a power outside of yourself, there are other places.  it's an interesting topic for sure, but not one i want to engage in here, especially since i have a cold.  And if you really want to respect the OP's wishes on this (as you state), it works better if you don't keep trying to have the last word. 

I'm not sure that there is any proof that souls are destroyed.  All you know is the archdemon actually dies and does not go to another darkspawn.  That it's because the souls of both are destroyed is conjecture.  then again, morrigan seems to believe this is so as well.  However, she doesn't argue that the soul of the gray warden is lost, only their life.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:27 .

[Shinobu]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

Uhh. Can we get back on topic?

Let's agree that "souls" exist in Thedas and as far as the characters know (whether or not it is true), the Warden who takes the final blow has his or her "soul" destroyed.

If you want to have a discussion of religious beliefs, real or imaginary, please start your own thread.

Oops, sorry, Shinobu - just read this after I had already posted.

I'll shush now.

No, it's fine. I agree with everything you said. I just didn't feel like going into it myself.

[Shinobu]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

But, seriously, to stay on topic, when I read back where this began, it seems to be just a misunderstanding. When
Shinobu said that about being agnostic, I don't think she meant that this raised a question about whether souls exists in DA:O or not. She just meant that, being an agnostic, the prospect of knowing for sure that souls exists and then being faced with the possibility that Alistair's soul could be destroyed was simply too much to still be able to think that he sacrificing would be better for him than he becoming a drunk, since there would be no "afterlife" for him. And that when he actually would for sure get one in DA:O's universe, if he didn't kill the AD.

...
I really dislike tha fact that Alistair goes away, if not hardened and if Loghain is spared. Of course it won't ever happen, but one of the things I really wanted was a DLC in which, if Alistair went away in your play, you could chase after him. I know, I know, it won't happen since there won't be any new DA:O DLC and it wouldn't have happened because it depends on the player having made specific choices in the game, but it's something my Warden would definetely do, given the time.

Yes, this is what I meant.

Going after Drunkistair is what fanfic is made for!

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...
Heh, deleted my last post as it was too pissy, but it's determined to be here I guess.   I was responding to something completely different a few pages ago which was completely misunderstood (because *I* misunderstood the point i was replying to), and then the point i was making completely disregarded in favor of the whole "what is belief" debate.  If you want to debate the differences between religion, spirituality, what constitutes belief in a power outside of yourself, there are other places.  it's an interesting topic for sure, but not one i want to engage in here, especially since i have a cold.  And if you really want to respect the OP's wishes on this (as you state), it works better if you don't keep trying to have the last word. 

I'm not sure that there is any proof that souls are destroyed.  All you know is the archdemon actually dies and does not go to another darkspawn.  That it's because the souls of both are destroyed is conjecture.  then again, morrigan seems to believe this is so as well.  However, she doesn't argue that the soul of the gray warden is lost, only their life.

Wouldn't hurt to follow your own advice would it? 

On topic I think the best outcome for Alistair and Fereldan is hardened Alistair not on the throne, Anora Queen, and the DR preformed by a male PC.

Though I'm inclined to believe the organization that has been doing this for centuries on the matter. What reason would they have to lie about the soul being destroyed? If the GW don't know something from what I've seen in game they usually are willing to admit it. And Riordan has no reason to say your soul is destroyed over the PC simply dying. One would consider the latter to be a better fate.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
Heh, deleted my last post as it was too pissy, but it's determined to be here I guess.   I was responding to something completely different a few pages ago which was completely misunderstood (because *I* misunderstood the point i was replying to), and then the point i was making completely disregarded in favor of the whole "what is belief" debate.  If you want to debate the differences between religion, spirituality, what constitutes belief in a power outside of yourself, there are other places.  it's an interesting topic for sure, but not one i want to engage in here, especially since i have a cold.  And if you really want to respect the OP's wishes on this (as you state), it works better if you don't keep trying to have the last word. 

I'm not sure that there is any proof that souls are destroyed.  All you know is the archdemon actually dies and does not go to another darkspawn.  That it's because the souls of both are destroyed is conjecture.  then again, morrigan seems to believe this is so as well.  However, she doesn't argue that the soul of the gray warden is lost, only their life.

Wouldn't hurt to follow your own advice would it? 

On topic I think the best outcome for Alistair and Fereldan is hardened Alistair not on the throne, Anora Queen, and the DR preformed by a male PC.

Though I'm inclined to believe the organization that has been doing this for centuries on the matter. What reason would they have to lie about the soul being destroyed? If the GW don't know something from what I've seen in game they usually are willing to admit it.

Ok, have you seen me either arguing the point (other than trying to clarify what I meant) or saying I'd drop it because the op asked?  I did neither.  I had no interest in engaging in the debate to begin with  

I'm not sure that the DR is the best result at all.  That's a huge unknown, what will happen there.

And just because the Gray wardens know what work, that doesn't mean they know WHY.  It doesn't mean they're wrong, but they're not necessarily right.  we're not really given enough information there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:50 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...



Ok, have you seen me either arguing the point (other than trying to clarify what I meant) or saying I'd drop it because the op asked?  I did neither.  

No you instead perpetuate by continuing to quote me even though you claim to want it to end. Would not the proper thing to do simply be ignore me?

And the GW had no reason to lie. If they didn't know they'd simply say the PC just dies. They have no reason to say something they're not certain of. It has no point.

As for the DR not being the best situation. Frankly I see it as something inevitable. The soul might not be saved but Flemeth (or Morrigan) will simply find another way. While the OGB can be seen as a huge risk I think it might be a large benefit. At best the child will change the world in a postive way. At worst it'll have to be killed. The PC has already killed his/her share of evil abominations it wouldn't be that much of a change regardless.

Of course this assumes the child is taken away from Morrigan and Flemeth. Left in their hands it's a safety hazard.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Shinobu wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

But, seriously, to stay on topic, when I read back where this began, it seems to be just a misunderstanding. When
Shinobu said that about being agnostic, I don't think she meant that this raised a question about whether souls exists in DA:O or not. She just meant that, being an agnostic, the prospect of knowing for sure that souls exists and then being faced with the possibility that Alistair's soul could be destroyed was simply too much to still be able to think that he sacrificing would be better for him than he becoming a drunk, since there would be no "afterlife" for him. And that when he actually would for sure get one in DA:O's universe, if he didn't kill the AD.

...
I really dislike tha fact that Alistair goes away, if not hardened and if Loghain is spared. Of course it won't ever happen, but one of the things I really wanted was a DLC in which, if Alistair went away in your play, you could chase after him. I know, I know, it won't happen since there won't be any new DA:O DLC and it wouldn't have happened because it depends on the player having made specific choices in the game, but it's something my Warden would definetely do, given the time.

Yes, this is what I meant.

Going after Drunkistair is what fanfic is made for!

Indeed it is!

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

ejoslin wrote...



Ok, have you seen me either arguing the point (other than trying to clarify what I meant) or saying I'd drop it because the op asked?  I did neither.  

No you instead perpetuate by continuing to quote me even though you claim to want it to end. Would not the proper thing to do simply be ignore me?

And the GW had no reason to lie. If they didn't know they'd simply say the PC just dies. THey have no reason to say something they're not certain of. It has no point.

As for the DR not being the best situation. Frankly I see it as something inevitable. The soul might not be saved but Flemeth (or Morrigan) will simply find another way. While the OGB can be seen as a huge risk I think it might be a large benefit.

Of course this assumes the child is taken away from Morrigan and Flemeth.

This has got to be the stupidest internet argument I have ever gotten into. Gah, I think I'll laugh about this one for awhile. 

I think I bow out now

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
This has got to be the stupidest internet argument I have ever gotten into.  Gah, I think I'll laugh about this one for awhile. 

If I wasn't tired, I would too.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

This has got to be the stupidest internet argument I have ever gotten into.  Gah, I think I'll laugh about this one for awhile. 

Indeed. I have honed my trolling skills to a razor edge.

So you...KoP and Maria. I have 18 more targets to go.

Though really here is no reason for the GWs to lie. Morrigan on the other hand...and Flemeth. Well I trust them about as much as a I trust a rabid dog.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
This has got to be the stupidest internet argument I have ever gotten into.  Gah, I think I'll laugh about this one for awhile. 

If I wasn't tired, I would too.

Awwww, since it was entertaining, it wasn't a total waste of bandwidth! 

Edit; yes, i'm totally embarrassed over it 

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Indeed. I have honed my trolling skills to a razor edge.

So you...KoP and Maria. I have 18 more targets to go.

I don't even remember what we were arguing about, so I guess it's as pointless as this.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Indeed. I have honed my trolling skills to a razor edge.

So you...KoP and Maria. I have 18 more targets to go.

I don't even remember what we were arguing about, so I guess it's as pointless as this.

I think it was about Anora...then it went to Loghain then  to Alistair.



The things I do while waiting for things to download.

[Shinobu]

Okay, those those in favor of letting Alistair take one for the team, how do you reconcile the "soul destroying" thing? Or does your PC not know about it, not believe it, or not think it's important?

Those in favor of Queen Anora as sole ruler, is she good for your people (Dalish, Dwarves, etc)? She's super bad news for the City Elves, although I seem to recall that if the Warden lives and doesn't ask for "My people to be treated fairly for once" no Alienage Bann is made (and later stoned to death) and the food riots don't happen. (ejoslin, is this correct?) So, for City Elves, it might be better to ask for "a title and lands" or "to serve the crown" when Anora is sole ruler, so the Warden can have some actual power to do good instead of relying on Anoia  Queen Codfish Anora to do whatever she wants. (Who wants to be a Bann when you can be a Teyrn?)  In that case you get the "Sadly, things won't change for our people" dialog option when you talk to Cyrion after the coronation, but  the epilogue doesn't seem as dismal. (Again, I may be misremembering.)

[Ryzaki]

Shinobu wrote...

Okay, those those in favor of letting Alistair take one for the team, how do you reconcile the "soul destroying" thing? Or does your PC not know about it, not believe it, or not think it's important?

Those in favor of Queen Anora as sole ruler, is she good for your people (Dalish, Dwarves, etc)? She's super bad news for the City Elves, although I seem to recall that if the Warden lives and doesn't ask for "My people to be treated fairly for once" no Alienage Bann is made (and later stoned to death) and the food riots don't happen. (ejoslin, is this correct?) So, for City Elves, it might be better to ask for "a title and lands" or "to serve the crown" when Anora is sole ruler, so the Warden can have some actual power to do good instead of relying on Anoia  Queen Codfish Anora to do whatever she wants. (Who wants to be a Bann when you can be a Teyrn?)  In that case you get the "Sadly, things won't change for our people" dialog option when you talk to Cyrion after the coronation, but  the epilogue doesn't seem as dismal. (Again, I may be misremembering.)

I'm usually a HN so she's just fine for them. If I play a CE I usually resign myself to king Alistair ruling alone or him being married to Anora. My CE went through the Vaughn incident while Anora was Queen so they think she can stuff her "I'm better." where the sun doesn't shine.

Though my PC wouldn't find the destruction of a soul to be important. They would be sure that Alistair remained immortal in the eyes of others as the Warden who ended the blight.

Though that makes me sad. Poor CE. Just can't get a break.