231 réponses à ce sujet

[Shinobu]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm usually a HN so she's just fine for them. If I play a CE I usually resign myself to king Alistair ruling alone or him being married to Anora. My CE went through the Vaughn incident while Anora was Queen so they think she can stuff her "I'm better." where the sun doesn't shine.

Though my PC wouldn't find the destruction of a soul to be important. They would be sure that Alistair remained immortal in the eyes of others as the Warden who ended the blight.

Though that makes me sad. Poor CE. Just can't get a break.

If you play as a HN, do you get any epilogue cards about the CEs? I mean, do the food riots in the Alienage happen no matter what type of Warden you are (in which case I'm not liking Anora for Queen for any origin) or is it only mentioned if the Warden is a CE (in which case Anora could be a good choice for some non-CE Warden)?

[ejoslin]

Food riots happen for everyone when Anora is solo queen or married to the warden.



But Anora does do good and sets the country well on the road to recovery. Anora seems to see the big picture, and Alistair the people.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Shinobu wrote...

Yes, this is what I meant.

Going after Drunkistair is what fanfic is made for!

Yet another good reason for me to get started with mine! 

[Ryzaki]

Shinobu wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm usually a HN so she's just fine for them. If I play a CE I usually resign myself to king Alistair ruling alone or him being married to Anora. My CE went through the Vaughn incident while Anora was Queen so they think she can stuff her "I'm better." where the sun doesn't shine.

Though my PC wouldn't find the destruction of a soul to be important. They would be sure that Alistair remained immortal in the eyes of others as the Warden who ended the blight.

Though that makes me sad. Poor CE. Just can't get a break.

If you play as a HN, do you get any epilogue cards about the CEs? I mean, do the food riots in the Alienage happen no matter what type of Warden you are (in which case I'm not liking Anora for Queen for any origin) or is it only mentioned if the Warden is a CE (in which case Anora could be a good choice for some non-CE Warden)?

Yes you do. Though none of my other wardens care. It doesn't affect them so...

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
But Anora does do good and sets the country well on the road to recovery. Anora seems to see the big picture, and Alistair the people.

And the elves are mostly unimportant in the larger scheme of things in the short term. Ferelden has bigger concerns.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Shinobu wrote...

Those in favor of Queen Anora as sole ruler, is she good for your people (Dalish, Dwarves, etc)? She's super bad news for the City Elves, although I seem to recall that if the Warden lives and doesn't ask for "My people to be treated fairly for once" no Alienage Bann is made (and later stoned to death) and the food riots don't happen. (ejoslin, is this correct?) So, for City Elves, it might be better to ask for "a title and lands" or "to serve the crown" when Anora is sole ruler, so the Warden can have some actual power to do good instead of relying on Anoia  Queen Codfish Anora to do whatever she wants. (Who wants to be a Bann when you can be a Teyrn?)  In that case you get the "Sadly, things won't change for our people" dialog option when you talk to Cyrion after the coronation, but  the epilogue doesn't seem as dismal. (Again, I may be misremembering.)

When I played, I didn't see any sign that Anora would be bad news for the city elves. Maybe one could infer it from the somewhat "overly-pragmatic" way she behaves sometimes, but it didn't occur to me that she could really take things too far. As far as I could see in the Epilogue, even though she got down heavy on the riot, it didn't seem as if it went so far as to simply ruins City Elves lives. Of course, the epilogue is alot brighter on this subject if Alistair is made king, but it doesn't seem that Anora is all bad. She just didn't handle it the best way there was. I might be missing some information, though.

Either way, as long as we're on this topic, there's something I've wondered about for awhile: when you make Anora's queen, the epilogue goes on about how a golden age has come to Ferelden and what not, with trade being stabilished far and wide with other countries, etc. When Alistair and Anora are married, though, the epilogue, even though it isn't bad, doesn't point out that there's been so much improvements either. Likewise, if only Alistair is made ruler, the elves get one of their own to be part of the court (or something like that - not remembering it exactly right now)... Yet if he's married to Anora, it seems no such thing occurs. So my question is: are there disadvantages, Ferelden's interests wise, to put them both together? Are there good things that will happen to Ferelden only if one or the other of them is made ruler, but not both together? Because it doesn't seem the advantages of having one or the other as a ruler just add up when they're put together - which raises the question whether it's better to have only one of them as a ruler, and which one. I got the impression that, at least in terms of the trade expansion and the kingdom's influence, the outcome is better with Anora alone than with her married to Alistair. Maybe when they're put together, both end somehow holding each other back, for good and for bad?

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 28 décembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Nuclear.

The only mention of a golden age is with Cousland / Anora if they don't start fighting over power.

[NuclearSerendipity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Nuclear.
The only mention of a golden age is with Cousland / Anora if they don't start fighting over power.

Sorry, I didn't quite remember how it went. But what I really wanted to mean was the whole "trade and influence growth" epilogue you get when Anora is made the sole ruler. :innocent:

[Shinobu]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
But Anora does do good and sets the country well on the road to recovery. Anora seems to see the big picture, and Alistair the people.

And the elves are mostly unimportant in the larger scheme of things in the short term. Ferelden has bigger concerns.

Yes, I'm rather elf-centered. But seriously, nothing "bad" happens to anyone with hardened Alistair&Anora on the throne, so that seems a better option for Ferelden than Anora alone. And elves may be mostly unimportant unless one happens to be one. The choice is not between saving the elves and saving Ferelden -- it's between saving everyone or letting a minority fall through the cracks.

Modifié par Shinobu, 28 décembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shinobu wrote...
 The choice is not between saving the elves and saving Ferelden -- it's between saving everyone or letting a minority fall through the cracks.

The price of civilization and development is people falling falling through the cracks. 
Sadly for the elves, whose uses are limited, that's going to be them.

The choice is between the development of the majority vs egalitarian concerns (an egalitarianism that is not goign to happen any time soon).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 décembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[Sarah1281]

Okay, those those in favor of letting Alistair take one for the team, how do you reconcile the "soul destroying" thing? Or does your PC not know about it, not believe it, or not think it's important?

While I generally do the DR, when I do have Alistair do the WC ending, I don't believe his soul is destroyed. I mean, why would it be? Two souls in one body equals both souls simply cease to exist? It seems far more likely that the body just can't take that and so expires. I don't think that the GWs are lying, just that they are mistaken. Similarly, I don't think that the Chantry (well...maybe the really higher ups are but not most of them) are lying about the origin of darkspawn and yet I don't think their version is correct. Being wrong is not the same thing as lying at all.



And we really don't get a chance to question Riordan about what he meant so for all we know, he'd be surprised to learn that people thought that their souls would literally cease to exist.

[Sarah1281]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Nuclear.
The only mention of a golden age is with Cousland / Anora if they don't start fighting over power.

Sorry, I didn't quite remember how it went. But what I really wanted to mean was the whole "trade and influence growth" epilogue you get when Anora is made the sole ruler. :innocent:

The solo slides get into specifics about the rules while the married slide doesn't really. If an unhardened Alistair is on the throne and it says he leaves everything to Anora, I assume that we can infer her slide (possibly minus dead father statue) and if Alistair is hardened I think it would be a mix of both with maybe neither of them being able to go quite as far as they would have alone with their respective goals because they have a finite amount of resources.

[testing123]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...
When I played, I didn't see any sign that Anora would be bad news for the city elves. 

She says something, I believe it's before you first go to the Alienage, that makes her seem very out of touch.  Something along the lines of, 'I don't know what they could possibly be upset about, they didn't lose many at Ostagar.'  It's been awhile, so I don't remember the exact quote, but there are signs.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The price of civilization and development is people falling falling through the cracks.  
Sadly for the elves, whose uses are limited, that's going to be them. 

Eviscerate the proletariat, am I right? =P

Modifié par jvee, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The price of civilization and development is people falling falling through the cracks.  
Sadly for the elves, whose uses are limited, that's going to be them. 

Eviscerate the proletariat, am I right? =P

For a time, until you can use the additional ressources in a policy of productivity to show them the benefits of the system and turn them into consummers, all the while colonise the rest of the world to acquire even cheaper labour and natural ressources that you process only back home to give the poor slobs some work and keep the colonised under developped.. 

But this time, make sure Marx isn't born.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And we really don't get a chance to question Riordan about what he meant so for all we know, he'd be surprised to learn that people thought that their souls would literally cease to exist.

He admits the Wardens don't know much about what actually happens. It's obvious that they don't, since Flemeth knows how to avoid a Warden death.  How can they know a person's soul is destroyed?  Did they search the whole Fade?  The Maker told them?  It's just a way to express the difference between what happens when the AD embodies a free being versus a darkspawn.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Sarah1281 wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Nuclear.
The only mention of a golden age is with Cousland / Anora if they don't start fighting over power.

Sorry, I didn't quite remember how it went. But what I really wanted to mean was the whole "trade and influence growth" epilogue you get when Anora is made the sole ruler. :innocent:

The solo slides get into specifics about the rules while the married slide doesn't really. If an unhardened Alistair is on the throne and it says he leaves everything to Anora, I assume that we can infer her slide (possibly minus dead father statue) and if Alistair is hardened I think it would be a mix of both with maybe neither of them being able to go quite as far as they would have alone with their respective goals because they have a finite amount of resources.

Makes sense. Though I'm inclined to believe that they would somehow hold each other back not only because of the finite amount of resources, but also because they wouldn't let each other be so free to rule and do what they wanted to as they wished, even if they had the resources (i.e. the Loghain Statue you mentioned). What sucks is, you don't get the specifics of what happens when they're together... It does make alot of sense that unhardened Alistair leaving everything to Anora leads mostly to the same outcomes as Anora being the sole ruler, but it would be nice to get the specifics on what happens when hardened/unhardened Alistair and Anora are married. Maybe it's better to have unhardened Alistair in the throne, since them he would just interfere where Anora were being too hard on her decisions (like with the CEs), leaving her to decide about most of the other issues, about which she would be better suited to decide and better off with no intervention?

Again, I might not be remembering everything quite right, so sorry if I'm saying something mistaken about the epilogues.

[NuclearSerendipity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jvee wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The price of civilization and development is people falling falling through the cracks.  
Sadly for the elves, whose uses are limited, that's going to be them. 

Eviscerate the proletariat, am I right? =P

For a time, until you can use the additional ressources in a policy of productivity to show them the benefits of the system and turn them into consummers, all the while colonise the rest of the world to acquire even cheaper labour and natural ressources that you process only back home to give the poor slobs some work and keep the colonised under developped.. 

But this time, make sure Marx isn't born.

Make sure Hegel isn't born, then. Nothing like cutting evil by its root. 

[NuclearSerendipity]

jvee wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...
When I played, I didn't see any sign that Anora would be bad news for the city elves. 

She says something, I believe it's before you first go to the Alienage, that makes her seem very out of touch.  Something along the lines of, 'I don't know what they could possibly be upset about, they didn't lose many at Ostagar.'  It's been awhile, so I don't remember the exact quote, but there are signs.

Ah, I didn't remember that. Definetely not a good sign, then.

[Shinobu]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For a time, until you can use the additional ressources in a policy of productivity to show them the benefits of the system and turn them into consummers, all the while colonise the rest of the world to acquire even cheaper labour and natural ressources that you process only back home to give the poor slobs some work and keep the colonised under developped.. 

But this time, make sure Marx isn't born.

We are not going to discuss Communism.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Shinobu wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

For a time, until you can use the additional ressources in a policy of productivity to show them the benefits of the system and turn them into consummers, all the while colonise the rest of the world to acquire even cheaper labour and natural ressources that you process only back home to give the poor slobs some work and keep the colonised under developped.. 

But this time, make sure Marx isn't born.

We are not going to discuss Communism.

This is state censorship!

I call for a strike! Immediately!

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Sarah1281]

jvee wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...
When I played, I didn't see any sign that Anora would be bad news for the city elves. 

She says something, I believe it's before you first go to the Alienage, that makes her seem very out of touch.  Something along the lines of, 'I don't know what they could possibly be upset about, they didn't lose many at Ostagar.'  It's been awhile, so I don't remember the exact quote, but there are signs.

  Alright, I looked it up.

Anora: You will need ammunition come the Landsmeet, and I can help in that regard. You have only just arrived in the city, so perhaps you are unaware of some... recent events. Denerim has been in turmoil since Ostagar. Many people here are angry or grieving. Strangely, the unrest is worst in the alienage. Few elves accompanied the army. They should have little reason to be upset. Which means that Howe and my father must have given them reason. I don't know what is happening there, but I am certain my father has his hands in it.

I don't feel that implies she is out of touch. She explains that all of Denerim is still upset because of Ostagar and given that the Chantry has been closed for months of non-stop funerals even a year after the battle makes this unsurprising. In light of the fact that people are mostly upset about Ostagar, it doesn't make sense that the elves who lost the fewest people would be the most upset about Ostagar. Therefore, they are probably upset about something else. Howe was their Arl and Loghain the regent. Additionally, although she doesn't mention it she has to know that there was a purge and the Alienage was shut down since you can find that out from a random guard. You'll probably find something there and should check it out.

[Sarah1281]

If you speak to Jowan as a Mage Warden (during the UoSA quest) he will tell you that: he is in the fade, he is you, he is Jowan and that all those statements are true. This strongly suggests some form of Holism, in that the universe is the sum of its parts.

The problem I have with that is that Trian and Leske show up for the DN and DC respectively and we know that, for whatever reason, dwarves are not a part of the Fade.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't feel that implies she is out of touch. She explains that all of Denerim is still upset because of Ostagar and given that the Chantry has been closed for months of non-stop funerals even a year after the battle makes this unsurprising. In light of the fact that people are mostly upset about Ostagar, it doesn't make sense that the elves who lost the fewest people would be the most upset about Ostagar. Therefore, they are probably upset about something else. Howe was their Arl and Loghain the regent. Additionally, although she doesn't mention it she has to know that there was a purge and the Alienage was shut down since you can find that out from a random guard. You'll probably find something there and should check it out.

She doesn't know that a purge was carried out there?  That it's been under lockdown since shortly after Howe arrived?

I'd say it's realistic that she's out of touch.  She, like Cailan, was bred to royalty, and just as Cailan had never set foot in the alienage, she likely had not, either.