231 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...
If you speak to Jowan as a Mage Warden (during the UoSA quest) he will tell you that: he is in the fade, he is you, he is Jowan and that all those statements are true.  This strongly suggests some form of Holism, in that the universe is the sum of its parts.

I interpret that to mean only that what you are seeing is a vision reflected from the Warden's own consciousness, which is also why it is different for everyone who enters.

[Shinobu]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

And we really don't get a chance to question Riordan about what he meant so for all we know, he'd be surprised to learn that people thought that their souls would literally cease to exist.

He admits the Wardens don't know much about what actually happens. It's obvious that they don't, since Flemeth knows how to avoid a Warden death.  How can they know a person's soul is destroyed?  Did they search the whole Fade?  The Maker told them?  It's just a way to express the difference between what happens when the AD embodies a free being versus a darkspawn.

Whether or not he is mistaken about what happens, Riordan is not going to be surprised.

Here's the loading screen: "You are almost ready to make your final stand against the Blight. Riordan -- a veteran Grey Warden -- has finally revealed to you why the Grey Wardens are needed. When the Archdemon perishes, its soul travels through the shared darkspawn taint into the Grey Warden's body, destroying both souls. Riordan has offered to make the sacrifice."

Personally, given the Grey Wardens' penchant for keeping secrets, I wouldn't be surprised if the high ranking Wardens knew how to avoid being annihilated but refuse to do it or tell the lower ranking Wardens about it because they don't want the Old God to be preserved. They would think it posed too much risk of another Blight.

Modifié par Shinobu, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Oghren's dialogue suggests an alternative to ghosts and Fade connections in the Gauntlet events--apparently the entire Temple of Andraste is veined with lyrium, and more heavily than anything Oghren has ever seen. He seems to think the visions and odd stuff in the Gauntlet might be a result of lyrium 'radiation' (for want of a better word).



This may or may not be correct, of course...but it would remove the Fade issue with dwarves people seem to have (though just because dwarves don't go to the Fade when sleeping doesn't mean they don't when they die, does it? Apparently they *can* go there, if Broken Circle is any indication).

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Glaucon wrote...

Can a DN enter the fade during the Mage tower quest?  I have not played a Dwarf yet.

No origins can avoid the Broken Circle quest. ;D

Oghren and Shale appear in the Fade in that quest too, if they were in the party. Oghren and Sigrun can go into the Fade in Awakenings. So clearly dwarves can go to the Fade, they just don't do so when they sleep.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glaucon wrote...

Marx evil? That's a new one on me.

I think that was sarcasm.

[Addai]

Shinobu wrote...

Personally, given the Grey Wardens' penchant for keeping secrets, I wouldn't be surprised if the high ranking Wardens knew how to avoid being annihilated but refuse to do it or tell the lower ranking Wardens about it because they don't want the Old God to be preserved. They would think it posed too much risk of another Blight.

The load screen is reflecting what Riordan told you.  It can't be taken as a "scientific' definition.  I mean, think about it a minute- there is no way for the Wardens to know exactly what happens.  Riordan himself tells you that they don't really know how it works, just that it's the only way they've found to kill the AD dead.

The game writers have said they don't operate on the principle that any religion or religious concept in the game is "the truth."  It's all told from limited perspective.  So if you get a load screen that talks about the Maker, that is reflecting some in-game character's limited view of matters, it doesn't mean that the Maker is established to exist.

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

Can a DN enter the fade during the Mage tower quest?  I have not played a Dwarf yet.

Yes, and Oghren has some humorous reactions to being forced into the Fade.  Dwarves just don't enter it naturally, but they can be trapped there.

Oghren and DN PC in the Fade
Awakening Oghren in the Fade

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't feel that implies she is out of touch. She explains that all of Denerim is still upset because of Ostagar and given that the Chantry has been closed for months of non-stop funerals even a year after the battle makes this unsurprising. In light of the fact that people are mostly upset about Ostagar, it doesn't make sense that the elves who lost the fewest people would be the most upset about Ostagar. Therefore, they are probably upset about something else. Howe was their Arl and Loghain the regent. Additionally, although she doesn't mention it she has to know that there was a purge and the Alienage was shut down since you can find that out from a random guard. You'll probably find something there and should check it out.

She doesn't know that a purge was carried out there?  That it's been under lockdown since shortly after Howe arrived?

I'd say it's realistic that she's out of touch.  She, like Cailan, was bred to royalty, and just as Cailan had never set foot in the alienage, she likely had not, either.

Who is to say that she doesn't know there's been a purge? You yourself, a random citizen off the street, can find out this: 

Alienage guard: By order of the new arl of Denerim, no one is to enter the Alienage.
PC: Arl Howe wants to keep people out, does he?
Guard: There's been an elven uprising. Knife-ears even have the gall to attack the arl's only son! Killed him in cold blood. With the whole Urien family dead, the regent appointed Rendon Howe of Amaranthine the new arl of Denerim. First thing he did was lead a purge of the Alienage. It's a mess in there. When things are put back in order, the gates will be reopened.

It's not a secret there was a purge. That's the official story. Anora couldn't have possibly missed hearing about it, especially if she knows that there is unrest in the Alienage. The thing is, though, that there is no way Howe leading a purge because they were rioting after brutally murdering the Arl's son in an unprovoked attack (which is what the story indicates) will sway anyone at the Landsmeet. You could say that Anora not knowing that Vaughan kidnapped the women of a wedding party and then was either killed or imprisoned by Howe after riots started over the matter is 'out of touch' but I think there's only so much that she can be expected to know and Vaughan's actions don't damn Howe. The slavering is what is important for the Landsmeet.

[Shinobu]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

When I played, I didn't see any sign that Anora would be bad news for the city elves. Maybe one could infer it from the somewhat "overly-pragmatic" way she behaves sometimes, but it didn't occur to me that she could really take things too far. As far as I could see in the Epilogue, even though she got down heavy on the riot, it didn't seem as if it went so far as to simply ruins City Elves lives. Of course, the epilogue is alot brighter on this subject if Alistair is made king, but it doesn't seem that Anora is all bad. She just didn't handle it the best way there was. I might be missing some information, though.

Sorry. Don't take this to mean I think she is evil. (I made a tribute video for her, after all.) She does fairly well for the majority of Fereldans. It's just that in my opinion Alistair&Anora are a better choice because no one suffers.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Who is to say that she doesn't know there's been a purge? You yourself, a random citizen off the street, can find out this: 
 

Alright, so if you propose that she knows, then why is she surprised that the elves are upset?  I'd say that's pretty good cause for a little civil unrest.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Who is to say that she doesn't know there's been a purge? You yourself, a random citizen off the street, can find out this: 
 

Alright, so if you propose that she knows, then why is she surprised that the elves are upset?  I'd say that's pretty good cause for a little civil unrest.

I don't think that she is, really. Her goal is to get you to the Alienage and investigate whatever her father or Howe might have done that can be used against Loghain at the Landsmeet. If she were to bring up the purges (which Eamon might not know about, having just arrived, and which you also might be ignorant of) then that's an obvious answer about why the elves are so upset and there's no guarantee that Eamon would send you to investigate. It suits her purposes to lie a little here.

[testing123]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Alright, I looked it up. 

Anora: You will need ammunition come the Landsmeet, and I can help in that regard. You have only just arrived in the city, so perhaps you are unaware of some... recent events. Denerim has been in turmoil since Ostagar. Many people here are angry or grieving. Strangely, the unrest is worst in the alienage. Few elves accompanied the army. They should have little reason to be upset. Which means that Howe and my father must have given them reason. I don't know what is happening there, but I am certain my father has his hands in it.

I have a selective memory I suppose.  I didn't remember the second half of that quote at all.  Still, the fact that she thinks they should have little reason to be upset up until recently does imply that she is slightly out of touch.  Nevertheless, it's not as bad as I was remembering.

[Addai]

Wait, what's the argument again? LOL I was just responding to dwarves being able to enter the Fade.

[Shinobu]

Addai67 wrote...

The load screen is reflecting what Riordan told you.  It can't be taken as a "scientific' definition.  I mean, think about it a minute- there is no way for the Wardens to know exactly what happens.  Riordan himself tells you that they don't really know how it works, just that it's the only way they've found to kill the AD dead.

The game writers have said they don't operate on the principle that any religion or religious concept in the game is "the truth."  It's all told from limited perspective.  So if you get a load screen that talks about the Maker, that is reflecting some in-game character's limited view of matters, it doesn't mean that the Maker is established to exist.

Yes, I said "whether or not he is mistaken". I misremembered the screen as being straight up info, when it was actually a recap of what had happened in-game.

[NuclearSerendipity]

Glaucon wrote...

Marx evil? That's a new one on me.

Geez, just poking some fun around, Glaucon.  It's not like I would think Hegel is either, considering my research is about him.

[Shinobu]

Glaucon wrote...

So I suppose a quick way of putting it is that Alistair's 'soul' is of no more value than the Ad's soul or any other member of the DA universe.  So I need not worry myself as to whether I am impacting negatively on Alistair as in the grand scheme of things Alistair is a tiny component of the whole and as such the whole will be diminished little --obviously there is a point of bifurcation somewhere.

And I'm not sure if any of that makes sense.

Hmm. Interesting. The flip side could be that the AD's soul is as important as Alistair's, therefore the DR is a moral necessity if you believe that preserving souls is more important than preserving lives (in the event Urthemiel triggers Blight 5.2).

Modifié par Shinobu, 28 décembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Shinobu]

Glaucon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wait, what's the argument again? LOL I was just responding to dwarves being able to enter the Fade.

Yeah I know what you mean .  Keeping track of these threads is getting to be too much like work for me!  Um... oh yeah, the argument; yes that's right.  Oh the destroying Alistair's soul thing.  The OP asked how we justify/think of it. 

The dwarves in the Fade wasn't part of an argument though it brought up some interesting issues that don't apply to the topic.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Shinobu wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

So I suppose a quick way of putting it is that Alistair's 'soul' is of no more value than the Ad's soul or any other member of the DA universe.  So I need not worry myself as to whether I am impacting negatively on Alistair as in the grand scheme of things Alistair is a tiny component of the whole and as such the whole will be diminished little --obviously there is a point of bifurcation somewhere.

And I'm not sure if any of that makes sense.

Hmm. Interesting. The flip side could be that the AD's soul is as important as Alistair's, therefore the DR is a moral necessity because preserving souls is more important than preserving lives (in the event Urthemiel triggers Blight 5.2).

And then we get into the moral argument of whether Morrigan's unborn baby/fetus had a soul, and if that had value.

[KnightofPhoenix]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

Marx evil? That's a new one on me.

Geez, just poking some fun around, Glaucon.  It's not like I would think Hegel is either, considering my research is about him.

Believe it or not, I was a communist once. When I was 13-14.
I shift in a volatile fashion on the political / ideological  spectrum. Until I realised that they are nothing but tools to be used of course.