231 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearSerendipity]

Glaucon wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

Marx evil? That's a new one on me.

Geez, just poking some fun around, Glaucon.  It's not like I would think Hegel is either, considering my research is about him.

Lol I was tongue in cheek myself (a bit anyway), but you know yourself that a whole bunch of bull gets attributed to Marx and it gets rather annoying sometimes.  Anyway let's leave anti-philosophy for another day.

Yeah, I know. Like communism.

Haha, seriously, just joking, I swear I don't think so... It's just that, studying philosophy myself, I'm particularly prone to make silly jokes about it. XD But yeah, we should be dialetically anti-anti-philosophy later, truly. XD

I'm feeling like discussing the whole soul/consciousness thing you posted earlier, but I'm afraid it might get too off topic.

[NuclearSerendipity]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Believe it or not, I was a communist once. When I was 13-14.
I shift in a volatile fashion on the political / ideological  spectrum. Until I realised that they are nothing but tools to be used of course. 

So you've settled with utilitarianism?

[Shinobu]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

And then we get into the moral argument of whether Morrigan's unborn baby/fetus had a soul, and if that had value.

Ouch. Serious potential for people to get more bent out of shape. Okay, everyone, along with Communism, we are not discussing abortion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Believe it or not, I was a communist once. When I was 13-14.
I shift in a volatile fashion on the political / ideological  spectrum. Until I realised that they are nothing but tools to be used of course. 

So you've settled with utilitarianism?

Not entirely no, I find some flaws in the philosophy. I would agree with Moore that it like most philosophies commit the "naturalistic fallacy" (pus Mill does a poor job in proving that utilitarianism is hedonistic but ends up arguing for things opposed to hedonism). In general, I find myself agreeing the most with David Hume.

And that's the most interesting OTicness that happened in a long while lol

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 décembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[NuclearSerendipity]

Shinobu wrote...
Ouch. Serious potential for people to get more bent out of shape. Okay, everyone, along with Communism, we are not discussing abortion. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie]

Glaucon wrote...
Utilitarianism is a swear word and should be censored in this forum like any other.  The next  person to say it gets reported (I'm eyeing the button right now)

../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

Damn all of you, censors! I'll have none of it! Be prepared to  12-pages long post on abortion and a 16-pages long article on utilitarianism! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

NuclearSerendipity wrote...

So you've settled with utilitarianism?../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

Not entirely no, I find some flaws in the philosophy. I would agree with Moore that it like most philosophies commit the "naturalistic fallacy" (pus Mill does a poor job in proving that utilitarianism is hedonistic but ends up arguing for things opposed to hedonism). In general, I find myself agreeing the most with David Hume.

And that's the most interesting OTicness that happened in a long while lol

Shamefully, I don't remember clearly Hume's specific standpoint on ethics. But I do agree there are flaws to the u-word (as to not offend Glaucon again [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]), and the fallacy is a fine way to point some of them.  Perhaps I'm putting it in a too simplistic manner, but too often this branch of philosophy seems to confound means with ends,
taking the means as something good on their own, no matter the context in which they're used.  When it comes to ethics, if I really have to pick a philosopher, I guess I'm more of an Aristotle guy, at least in the broader lines.


Sorry, guys, it's 4:00 am over here and I think sleep deprivation is taking the best out of me. I promise this is my least piece of off-topic posts. Honest. :innocent:

Modifié par NuclearSerendipity, 28 décembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[Last Darkness]

I was always a fan of the "Grey Warden" series of events so its whatevers best for stopping the blight.

Which is like.....let me think

Werewolves

Mages

Golems+Aeducan

Hardened Leilana and Alistair

Dark Ritual

Anora Rules(Or rules with Warden)

Loghaine alive.

[errant_knight]

Shinobu wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Not mercy to me. To me the merciful thing is to harden him so he believes he's capable and can achieve happiness, then give him a meaningful function in life where he lives up to his potential. He likes helping people, he likes learning, and he has a good heart, and it pays off. I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn. So to me, the best possible ending for Alistair is to be king, either solo, or married to the PC. Luckily, this is good for Ferelden, too. It may not have a 'golden age' label slapped on it, but we aren't told anything negative about Alistair's rule at all. While it's possible that he and Anora could come to terms with each other, even develop some affection, I don't see him getting the kind of acceptance and understanding from her that he really needs to thrive. He has a better chance at that if he can find a bride for himself. I'm pretty sure that Ferelden's handsome, charming warden king can manage that.

Well said. Thanks for posting, as your earlier comment was the one that started me wondering about this topic.

Thanks.   I figured I should probably make a post in a thread that has my name in the OP.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Shinobu wrote...

Okay, those those in favor of letting Alistair take one for the team, how do you reconcile the "soul destroying" thing? Or does your PC not know about it, not believe it, or not think it's important?

Those in favor of Queen Anora as sole ruler, is she good for your people (Dalish, Dwarves, etc)? She's super bad news for the City Elves, although I seem to recall that if the Warden lives and doesn't ask for "My people to be treated fairly for once" no Alienage Bann is made (and later stoned to death) and the food riots don't happen. (ejoslin, is this correct?) So, for City Elves, it might be better to ask for "a title and lands" or "to serve the crown" when Anora is sole ruler, so the Warden can have some actual power to do good instead of relying on Anoia  Queen Codfish Anora to do whatever she wants. (Who wants to be a Bann when you can be a Teyrn?)  In that case you get the "Sadly, things won't change for our people" dialog option when you talk to Cyrion after the coronation, but  the epilogue doesn't seem as dismal. (Again, I may be misremembering.)

For anyone to say that the wardens don't know or realize that their soul is destroyed when whoever takes the killing blow is false when Riordan tells the warden and Alistair or Loghain both that the warden and AD's soul are both destroyed.  Just before Morrigan makes her offer.   Destroyed  for good, nothing left, gone for good.  No soul, no spirit nothing, unless the Maker makes it so and gives you your soul back.  I don't see how any pc can claim or RP that they didn't know.

I think Alistair's POV is that he wants to take the blow because he should have never been born to begin with, and with him taking the blow, corrects the mistake that his parents made in bringing him into the world.  I always felt that Alistair felt he was never wanted and this was in part from Isolde, Eamon, and Maric's own doing. 

His fade dream shows secretly he just wants to be a normal person, a guy with a wife and family.   He knows being a GW this was never going to happen if GW can't have children.  Unless he lied to the HNF to try and get rid of her.  He doesn't complain in marrying Anora.  Which I found odd the more I play the game.

For the most part I'd prefer him on the throne vs Anora.  Regardless, Alistair and the warden both disappear at the end of Awakenings and it doesn't appear that Anora remarries if she rules alone.  So, civil war is coming back to Ferelden in a few decades regardless.   There is going to be a powerplay from Redcliffe and possibly an uprising from the Alienage if the map from WH can be believed.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 28 décembre 2010 - 07:34 .

[nos_astra]

errant_knight wrote...

I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn.

Um, you might be on to something. In his dream he says that he doesn't want to die ... I can't quite remember, he basically says he doesn't want to die a typical Grey Warden death.



That's quite interesting.

[Sarah1281]

For anyone to say that the wardens don't know or realize that their soul is destroyed when whoever takes the killing blow is false when Riordan tells the warden and Alistair or Loghain both that the warden and AD's soul are both destroyed. Just before Morrigan makes her offer. Destroyed for good, nothing left, gone for good. No soul, no spirit nothing, unless the Maker makes it so and gives you your soul back. I don't see how any pc can claim or RP that they didn't know.

No one is saying that the Wardens don't think/say that the soul is destroyed. Just because the Wardens believe this to be true with no way of knowing that we've seen does not make it true.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Sarah1281 wrote...

For anyone to say that the wardens don't know or realize that their soul is destroyed when whoever takes the killing blow is false when Riordan tells the warden and Alistair or Loghain both that the warden and AD's soul are both destroyed. Just before Morrigan makes her offer. Destroyed for good, nothing left, gone for good. No soul, no spirit nothing, unless the Maker makes it so and gives you your soul back. I don't see how any pc can claim or RP that they didn't know.

No one is saying that the Wardens don't think/say that the soul is destroyed. Just because the Wardens believe this to be true with no way of knowing that we've seen does not make it true.

 
I was responding back to Shinobu which you left out with your hack n slash job of my response in quoting me. 
 
Shinobu wrote:

Okay, those those in favor of letting Alistair take one for the team, how do you reconcile the "soul destroying" thing? Or does your PC not know about it, not believe it, or not think it's important?

All I'm saying is how can a warden not know it, or believe or not think it's important when Riordan tells all that both souls are destroyed.  For me personally my pc's can't ignore what he told me that both souls are destroyed. 

[Sarah1281]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

For anyone to say that the wardens don't know or realize that their soul is destroyed when whoever takes the killing blow is false when Riordan tells the warden and Alistair or Loghain both that the warden and AD's soul are both destroyed. Just before Morrigan makes her offer. Destroyed for good, nothing left, gone for good. No soul, no spirit nothing, unless the Maker makes it so and gives you your soul back. I don't see how any pc can claim or RP that they didn't know.

No one is saying that the Wardens don't think/say that the soul is destroyed. Just because the Wardens believe this to be true with no way of knowing that we've seen does not make it true.

 
I was responding back to Shinobu which you left out with your hack n slash job of my response in quoting me. 
 
Shinobu wrote:

Okay, those those in favor of letting Alistair take one for the team, how do you reconcile the "soul destroying" thing? Or does your PC not know about it, not believe it, or not think it's important?

All I'm saying is how can a warden not know it, or believe or not think it's important when Riordan tells all that both souls are destroyed.  For me personally my pc's can't ignore what he told me that both souls are destroyed. 

I didn't do a "hack n slash" of your post. I was replying to one paragraph. I could have quoted the entire thing (even what you were quoting yourself) but I would have still responded the exact same way so there didn't seem to be much of a point. I was talking about the validity of the 'soul is destroyed' theory.

[mousestalker]

What reason does any PC!Warden ever have for believing Riordan? I'm not saying he is lying, merely that he may be mistaken. Certainly his judgment, as shown in game, hasn't exactly been the best.

[Dave of Canada]

Sort of on-topic post ahead.



Hardened Alistair is probably better off as solo King or with Queen Cousland, though that wouldn't be as great for Ferelden. For Ferelden + Alistair, I'd say the best ending would be Hardened Alistair and Anora on the throne with Loghain dead killing the Archdemon.



Loghain represents Ferelden greatly and him being known as a hero would probably greatly strengthen the people's resolve, while killing him at the Landsmeet (and sort of leaving him alive) to be disgraced probably hurts their resolve because one of their greatest was ruined.



I'd say unhardened Alistair would prefer staying a Grey Warden, with King Cousland on the throne because solo-Anora, while great, isn't as great as with Cousland or Alistair married to her.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Sarah

I already answered this. Riordan tells everyone that both souls are destroyed. The only way for a pc to rp this is to not believe Riordan in sending Alistair to his death or that you didn't care enough about him as a person and allowed him to take the final blow. How do you reconcile this knowing Alistair's soul is destroyed forever? Alistair doesn't pass through the fade unto the Maker. There is no soul or spirit to go forth if Riordan told the truth. Riordan is the senior warden, so why wouldn't a pc believe him?

The question is Sarah how do you reconcile your decision knowing Alistair's soul is destroyed forever if you order him to take the killing blow if Riordan told the truth.  If you loved him and cared about as a friend.   If you hated him I can see a pc ignoring what Riordan said. 

Loghain is the one who makes the most sense in making the killing blow if you hate Loghain, you still lose Alistair as a friend and lover either way.  At least with Loghain, Alistair might have the chance for some happiness.  He is the only warden who never had a chance to really experience life. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 28 décembre 2010 - 09:11 .

[Sarah1281]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I already answered this. Riordan tells everyone that both souls are destroyed. The only way for a pc to rp this is to not believe Riordan in sending Alistair to his death or that you didn't care enough about him as a person and allowed him to take the final blow. How do you reconcile this knowing Alistair's soul is destroyed forever? Alistair doesn't pass through the fade unto the Maker. There is no soul or spirit to go forth if Riordan told the truth. Riordan is the senior warden, so why wouldn't a pc believe him?

Because Riordan has no way of knowing. Tell me: exactly how would Riordan or any other Warden know this? No one, not even the Chantry, can prove that spirits pass through the Fade and end up at the Maker. I do think we hear something about the deceased passing through the Fade for something but are we supposed to believe that the past Wardens figured out where in the Fade someone who dies is supposed to end up, had the area that the person who killed the Archdemon watched by Fade spirits, and then confirmed he never appeared? 

We have no reason to doubt that ending the Blight kills the GW in question. We have no reason to doubt that if a non-Warden kills the Archdemon then it will respawn. Those are things that have happened in the past and we know about. What happens to the souls of the Archdemon and Warden who killed the Archdemon, however, are NOT known and CANNOT be known until after you die yourself and thus can't pass along a message. That is why you wouldn't mindlessly accept whatever the Senior Warden happens to believe as infallible truth.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Why wouldn't I believe Riordan? He is senior to me and near his calling, he has years and years experience on me, Alistair and even Loghain. I've only been a warden for a little over year. So you discount everything within the lore and what a senior warden tells you at your whim just to make your point? Also Riordan tells you he has been to Weisshaupt, and you have never been there and as far as we know Alistair has never been there. I'd assume the wardens at headquarters would know this information and have an archieve on this subject which Riordan might have had access too. Alistair had been a warden long enough to know it might not be possible for him to even have children.

Wynne is the one who tells you during Ostagar about the fade, a person's soul and the maker.  People have returned from the fade  - your warden is a prime example.  The village stuck in the fade during the black marsh quest in DAA.  Those people died yet their souls were in the fade.  The warden returned during the Broken Circle quest from the fade.

So how do you know that other wardens from the past haven't gotten stuck in the fade and they might truly know the answer to this.  How many wardens died defending againt Dumat?  I'm sure they might have run into each other in the fade and if they were somehow pulled back out of the fade like our wardens were then somebody within the warden might know this answer.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 28 décembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Sarah1281]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Why wouldn't I believe Riordan? He is senior to me and near his calling, he has years and years experience on me, Alistair and even Loghain. I've only been a warden for a little over year. So you discount everything within the lore and what a senior warden tells you at your whim just to make your point? Also Riordan tells you he has been to Weisshaupt, and you have never been there and as far as we know Alistair has never been there. I'd assume the wardens at headquarters would know this information and have an archieve on this subject which Riordan might have had access too. Alistair had been a warden long enough to know it might not be possible for him to even have children.

You may feel free to believe whatever you choose.

I am not discounting anything in the lore. At all. The Chantry tells us that there is a Maker. I don't believe that. Am I discounting lore? What about the fact that the devs refuse to tell us if there is a Maker and went out of their way to provide every possible instance of proof in the Maker with a secular explanation so that you don't know for sure and have to take it on faith.

Seriously, the charge that I'm ignoring lore is ridiculous. I accept that Riordan tells you that the soul is destroyed. That is lore. I accept that he believes this. That is lore. I could even accept that it is the official GW position which is probably also lore. That does not mean it is true. It does not mean it is false.

We have no way of knowing if it is true. How do you go about proving if a soul was destroyed or not? How would Weisshaupt? Unless someone managed to go where everyone's soul went when they died and returned after having verified that the souls of Garahel and the other three Blight enders was not there (which seems like a stretch) then they cannot prove it. It is just their opinion. It might even be right but it cannot be proven.

Pretty much everyone is a senior Warden at the point in the game. Virtually all the senior Wardens (even Duncan, had he lived, if you're accepting Word of God) wrote off Ferelden as a lost cause due to the civil war and outlawing the GW. You and Alistair did not and they were mistaken. They weren't lying about Ferelden being a lost cause. They were just wrong.

So what if Riordan has been to Weisshaupt? So what if he knows more about the Wardens then you do and so what if everyone up at Weisshaupt knows more than you do? That doesn't mean they know for sure if souls are destroyed. They probably have their reasons for thinking that souls are destroyed (the fact that the Archdemon stops reforming might be a reason to think that) but until they offer up proof, as far as anyone knows they do not have proof. You can choose to believe they have irrefutable proof but it is NOT game lore that they do have proof of this. Maybe in DA2 it will become game lore but right now it isn't.

And what in the world does Alistair knowing that GWs haver fertility problems have to do with whether or not anyone has proof that the soul of the one who kills the Archdemon dies? 

[Sarah1281]

Wynne is the one who tells you during Ostagar about the fade, a person's soul and the maker. People have returned from the fade - your warden is a prime example. The village stuck in the fade during the black marsh quest in DAA. Those people died yet their souls were in the fade. The warden returned during the Broken Circle quest from the fade.

That's because they were STUCK in the Fade. Fade spirits are supposed to pass through the Fade and end up elsewhere. Where, we don't know. People have theories, but no p roof.

So how do you know that other wardens from the past haven't gotten stuck in the fade and they might truly know the answer to this. How many wardens died defending againt Dumat? I'm sure they might have run into each other in the fade and if they were somehow pulled back out of the fade like our wardens were then somebody within the warden might know this answer.

The Fade is a very big, everchanging place. Just because no one happened to be in the Fade and witnessed the soul of Garahel or another Blight-ender show up and pass through the Fade doesn't mean it didn't happen. And who is to say that the spirits of those who died in the same place end up in the same place? We really don't have enough information on the Fade for that. The Wardens who died defeating Dumat are DEAD. Unlike us, they cannot return. Niall died because he was stuck in the Fade for too long and he could not return. Mages can only be in the Fade for so long before they die.



I will admit that it is entirely possible (if unlikely) that Weisshaupt has proof that they are right. Until we see any evidence of this proof, however, then it is not game lore that Riordan is right about it.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Sarah. And you can't take anything out of the lore and prove that Riordan didn't know what he was talking about. Personally, I think you just like to play the devil with people's discussions.



I provided you with a possilbe explanation with your warden getting stuck in the fade twice! Not once but twice even if you're not a mage if a pc has played all of the content. So the possibility does exist that other wardens could have gotten stuck in the fade and figured out the warden who took the killing blow, their soul was never seen in the fade and was never found thus possibly being destroyed forever. These wardens could have escaped from the fade the same as our wardens and reported this with the other four blights and complied a history at Wessihaupt. All I'm saying is that Riordan said what he said for a reason. Alistair/Loghain replies that a warden just dies, Riordan replies a soul is destroyed forever. Even a load screen tells you that Riordan has told you a warden's soul will be destroyed to kill the arch demon, so you also ignore load screens! That is lore regardless if you believe the chantry or not, regardless of your origin especially if you play as dwarf and don't believe the chantry. Even the dwarves recognize something happens when a dwarf dies and their ancestors will watch over them even though dwarves don't acknowledge the fade. Yet if you take Oghren in Awakenings or Sigurn they too get stuck in the fade.



Alistair knowing about a GW's fertility also shows him being senior to you, he had discussions with other wardens and what their lives were like, the ones killed at Ostagar; Alistair has been a warden and lived with the other wardens where you didn't. Alistair had information that even you as a warden didn't have when playing as a female warden. Thus it shows that Riordan being senior might have information that you, Alistair, and even Loghain won't have in making his statement that a warden's soul is destroyed forever.

[Sarah1281]

[quote]@ Sarah. And you can't take anything out of the lore and prove that Riordan didn't know what he was talking about. Personally, I think you just like to play the devil with people's discussions. [/quote] And I am not claiming that you can prove that Riordan is wrong. You cannot prove it one way or another. It's also very rude to say that and it's not true. I don't pick a position just to **** with people. When I post something it is because I honestly believe that, regardless of whether or not other people agree with me. [/quote]
 
[quote]I provided you with a possilbe explanation with your warden getting stuck in the fade twice! [/quote]I know that people can get stuck in the Fade. I don't see how this is relevant. Dead spirits do not STAY in the Fade, they pass through it. It is theoretically possible that Wardens could have gotten stuck in the Fade and managed to ask someone about the Warden who died. The problem is, however, that the Fade is big. I already mentioned that it is big and it never stays the same. They would not find the Warden there regardless of if their soul was still there unless they did it very shortly after the death because they only linger in the Fade for a little while (or are supposed to). By this logic, you could do the US and then, if your soul isn't destroyed, make sure to find a mage and tell them that you're who you are and hope they believe you thus proving that your soul wasn't destroyed but I still don't see how you can prove that it was destroyed.

Do you propose that everyone who dies goes to the same section of the Fade? Do you propose that you can figure out where someone will end up in the Fade based on when or where or even how they died? Do you propose there must have been someone else there to witness this in the Fade? It is possibly, I guess, but I doubt it and until we do have more than 'Well, this might have maybe happened' then we do not know that you are right and we do not know that I am right. We don't know yes or no here.

Yes, I also ignore loading screens! That is because I do not consider them lore! I see them as summing up what people said! We disagree on the canonity of loading screens!

Riordan says what he does because he believes it to be true and wants you to have all the facts that he does (true or not). Oh, you are NOT trying to tell me when dwarves die they pass through the Fade! That is absolutely not true. Everyone acknowledges that dwarves are not connected to the Fade. They can be manually and unnaturally taken there by a demon or by whatever the First Warden did but that is not the same as them going naturally and dwarves do not go through there once they die.

Okay, so Alistair talked to other Wardens who never told him about GWs having to sacrifice himself so it's still not relevant. Rhiordan DOES have more information and I am not disputing that. I am not even claiming that there is proof that Riordan is wrong! I am claiming that if there is proof that Riordan and the Wardens are right, we have not seen it or been told it so I am free to think (WITHOUT IGNORING LORE) that they are mistaken no matter how senior they might be.

Now, I am done discussing this because you are seriously pissing me off. Nothing on these forums offends me like being told I don't really believe something but just want to be playing devil's advocate and that I am ignoring lore and you have said both. Just so I don't get a 'Oh, you just had to have the last word' post, feel free to take the last word. I have tried to explain my position but instead of accepting that we disagree but have perfectly valid opinions on the matter, you think I'm ignoring lore and just trying to pick a fight.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 28 décembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[Addai]

OMG are we still talking about an unproveable metaphysical concept? If a Warden's soul really is destroyed, no one's ever talking to that person again so there's no way the Wardens could know for sure that's what happens. It's a supposition, a metaphor, or Riordan talking out of his arse.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Sarah, well you pissed me off along time ago in regards to my position but I stuck with the dicussion nonetheless. So what!



What is your position now on this topic?. First you said you didn't believe the chantry and what they had to say about the maker and the fade and now here you are agreeing that we've all been in the fade and that we might all acutally pass through the fade and that we can even escape out of it. The wonder of it in trying to get you to just possibly agree.



You sure are a funny one Sarah.