231 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

klarabella wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn.

Um, you might be on to something. In his dream he says that he doesn't want to die ... I can't quite remember, he basically says he doesn't want to die a typical Grey Warden death.

That's quite interesting.

Yeah, that really smacked me upside the head once I thought about it. He says that he thought that being a grey warden would make him happy, but it didn't. He doesn't want to spend his life fighting darkspawn and end up dead in a ditch somewhere.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

errant_knight wrote...

klarabella wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn.

Um, you might be on to something. In his dream he says that he doesn't want to die ... I can't quite remember, he basically says he doesn't want to die a typical Grey Warden death.

That's quite interesting.

Yeah, that really smacked me upside the head once I thought about it. He says that he thought that being a grey warden would make him happy, but it didn't. He doesn't want to spend his life fighting darkspawn and end up dead in a ditch somewhere.

Yep. But really, how many people *would* want to end like that? It's not a happy life, and a happy life is what Alistair wants.

[sevalaricgirl]

Alistair's happiness is love. He doesn't have that with Anora, but he does with female warden if female warden romanced him so I think he'd be happy being a Grey Warden as long as she's a Grey Warden and who's to say that there isn't a Tevinter secret to assuage the calling since that's where the joining (if I'm correct) came from.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Are we seriously trying to figure out in a fantasy world how souls are destroyed? I don't know, why does the Archdemon blow up when you kill him?

Eh who cares?

[Shinobu]

Glaucon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Are we seriously trying to figure out in a fantasy world how souls are destroyed? I don't know, why does the Archdemon blow up when you kill him?
Eh who cares?

ROFL

I don't really care (not seriously care) but I thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion and help people justify their reasons for destroying Alistair's 'soul'.  But yeah, big shrug of the shoulders and move on.

Oh, thank the Maker!

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I don't know, why does the Archdemon blow up when you kill him?

That sequence was directed by Michael Bay.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Alistair's happiness is love. He doesn't have that with Anora, but he does with female warden if female warden romanced him so I think he'd be happy being a Grey Warden as long as she's a Grey Warden and who's to say that there isn't a Tevinter secret to assuage the calling since that's where the joining (if I'm correct) came from.

I don't think his happy ideal is limited to *romantic* love. You do hear him talk about the good times he had with the other Grey Wardens, and hear how he obviously enjoyed the feeling of being surrounded by friends/brothers. So while I agree that his happiness stems from love, I think it's more 'loved ones' and especially 'family'.

[Shinobu]

Glaucon wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

So I suppose a quick way of putting it is that Alistair's 'soul' is of no more value than the Ad's soul or any other member of the DA universe.  So I need not worry myself as to whether I am impacting negatively on Alistair as in the grand scheme of things Alistair is a tiny component of the whole and as such the whole will be diminished little --obviously there is a point of bifurcation somewhere.

And I'm not sure if any of that makes sense.

Hmm. Interesting. The flip side could be that the AD's soul is as important as Alistair's, therefore the DR is a moral necessity if you believe that preserving souls is more important than preserving lives (in the event Urthemiel triggers Blight 5.2).

Yeah you could see it that way.  Although the point about Holism is that the whole becomes more than the some of its parts, so trying to sum those individual components seems counter-intuitive in that respect.  So which comes first the Chicken or the Egg (physical life or corporeal life), and if one is more important than the other why bother with it in the first place?

Simple. Eggs (e.g., velociraptor eggs) came before chickens but chicken eggs came after chickens.
So if one's PC belives in Holism, the contribution of any one soul can be seen as negligible?  I'd say that part would still fall under the "good of Ferelden" column if we expand "Ferelden" to "the Universe." As far as Alistair is concerned, he may be <0.00000001% of the universe but still 100% of himself -- so while the entirety of creation may not suffer from his annihilation, I believe he would suffer from it. (Although I guess he can't "suffer" if he doesn't exist -- let's not argue about that point.)  I can accept that you don't feel that way, though. Interesting concept.

[Shinobu]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...


For anyone to say that the wardens don't know or realize that their soul is destroyed when whoever takes the killing blow is false when Riordan tells the warden and Alistair or Loghain both that the warden and AD's soul are both destroyed.  Just before Morrigan makes her offer.   Destroyed  for good, nothing left, gone for good.  No soul, no spirit nothing, unless the Maker makes it so and gives you your soul back.  I don't see how any pc can claim or RP that they didn't know.

I think Alistair's POV is that he wants to take the blow because he should have never been born to begin with, and with him taking the blow, corrects the mistake that his parents made in bringing him into the world.  I always felt that Alistair felt he was never wanted and this was in part from Isolde, Eamon, and Maric's own doing. 

His fade dream shows secretly he just wants to be a normal person, a guy with a wife and family.   He knows being a GW this was never going to happen if GW can't have children.  Unless he lied to the HNF to try and get rid of her.  He doesn't complain in marrying Anora.  Which I found odd the more I play the game.
 

Alistair's upbringing certainly left him with poor self-esteem, which plays into his volunteering to take the blow. (This is one of the main reasons I'm not fond of Eamon or Maric.)

Good point about the Fade.

[Shinobu]

errant_knight wrote...

klarabella wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn.

Um, you might be on to something. In his dream he says that he doesn't want to die ... I can't quite remember, he basically says he doesn't want to die a typical Grey Warden death.

That's quite interesting.

Yeah, that really smacked me upside the head once I thought about it. He says that he thought that being a grey warden would make him happy, but it didn't. He doesn't want to spend his life fighting darkspawn and end up dead in a ditch somewhere.

So Alistair's devotion to the Warden Order is more devotion to the individuals who happen to be Wardens (Duncan and the PC) rather than the cause. In that case he would be happy staying a Warden if the PC is with him but not so happy rebuilding the Order by himself?

[Sarah1281]

So Alistair's devotion to the Warden Order is more devotion to the individuals who happen to be Wardens (Duncan and the PC) rather than the cause. In that case he would be happy staying a Warden if the PC is with him but not so happy rebuilding the Order by himself?

If you die, doesn't Warden!Alistair quit because it's 'not the same'?

[Shinobu]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Alistair's happiness is love. He doesn't have that with Anora, but he does with female warden if female warden romanced him so I think he'd be happy being a Grey Warden as long as she's a Grey Warden and who's to say that there isn't a Tevinter secret to assuage the calling since that's where the joining (if I'm correct) came from.

I don't think his happy ideal is limited to *romantic* love. You do hear him talk about the good times he had with the other Grey Wardens, and hear how he obviously enjoyed the feeling of being surrounded by friends/brothers. So while I agree that his happiness stems from love, I think it's more 'loved ones' and especially 'family'.

Agreed! Unfortunately for him the happiest time of his life may have been following the PC (romanced or not) around during the Blight with the dysfunctional "family" of NPCs. "One good thing about the Blight..."

[Shinobu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So Alistair's devotion to the Warden Order is more devotion to the individuals who happen to be Wardens (Duncan and the PC) rather than the cause. In that case he would be happy staying a Warden if the PC is with him but not so happy rebuilding the Order by himself?

If you die, doesn't Warden!Alistair quit because it's 'not the same'?

From the wiki:

"If The Warden sacrifices herself to kill the Archdemon, and Alistair is
in love with her and is left at the gate in the final battle, he
survives but feels great grief over her loss. He eventually leaves the
Grey Wardens, and travels to Duncan's birthplace to honor him. Where he
goes afterward is unknown.
"

[errant_knight]

Shinobu wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

klarabella wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I also don't think his fade dream is meaningless. I don't think it's an accident that he's the one who's most trapped, because he's also the only one being shown something he really wants--love, acceptance, family, and surprisingly, a life that isn't spent fighting darkspawn.

Um, you might be on to something. In his dream he says that he doesn't want to die ... I can't quite remember, he basically says he doesn't want to die a typical Grey Warden death.

That's quite interesting.

Yeah, that really smacked me upside the head once I thought about it. He says that he thought that being a grey warden would make him happy, but it didn't. He doesn't want to spend his life fighting darkspawn and end up dead in a ditch somewhere.

So Alistair's devotion to the Warden Order is more devotion to the individuals who happen to be Wardens (Duncan and the PC) rather than the cause. In that case he would be happy staying a Warden if the PC is with him but not so happy rebuilding the Order by himself?

I think so, myself, and he does leave if the PC dies. At the same time, he has a strong sense of duty and honor, and believes that the warden cause is a very honorable one. I'm sure he's attracted to that, and having a purpose. I've always thought that  Alistair might end up disillusioned with the wardens if he spent a long time there, though. Knowing that the wardens 'do some pretty extreme things,' and having to do them yourself are very different things, and Alistair has very clear views of right and wrong. I can't imagine Alistair choosing to burn Amaranthine, for example, or even following an order to do so--not and be able to live with himself afterwards.

[Sarah1281]

Shinobu wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So Alistair's devotion to the Warden Order is more devotion to the individuals who happen to be Wardens (Duncan and the PC) rather than the cause. In that case he would be happy staying a Warden if the PC is with him but not so happy rebuilding the Order by himself?

If you die, doesn't Warden!Alistair quit because it's 'not the same'?

From the wiki:

"If The Warden sacrifices herself to kill the Archdemon, and Alistair is
in love with her and is left at the gate in the final battle, he
survives but feels great grief over her loss. He eventually leaves the
Grey Wardens, and travels to Duncan's birthplace to honor him. Where he
goes afterward is unknown.
"

 If you die and GW!Alistair was warm or better but not in love it's "Alistair returned to the Grey Wardens for a time, insisting that new recruits pay respect to <FirstName/>'s sacrifice and campaigning to relax some of the order's more secretive policies. But in time, he left the Wardens once more, declaring that it simply no longer felt right." If it was love it's "Alistair felt the loss of his love keenly. Although he returned to the Grey Wardens for a time, he was heard to say that it simply was not the same anymore. Much to Queen Anora's relief, he resigned from the order and left Ferelden for good."

Incidentally, did anyone know that if Wynne is not warm or better when you US you get "Wynne returned to the Circle of Magi, but only for a short time. After several months, her quarters were found empty. She was gone without explanation or apology. The templars were told to look out for her, although no active search has yet been ordered." So Wynne can turn apostate and the templars don't even bother tracking her down?!?! So not fair.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Remember that the other big thing about Alistair was his guilt at surviving Duncan at Ostagar. He believed he should have died instead, according to his words at the Gauntlet. So letting his fellow Grey Warden take the blow (a fellow Grey Warden who was his junior, no less) might not have been easy on him.



@Sarah, interesting point about Wynne! I wonder if this was in preparation for Awakenings? It might have been odd to see Wynne at Amaranthine and not find the Templars on her heels.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wynne is speshul. the templars will never chase her, she's too golden and glorious!



As far as "best endings" go, that really is a matter of eprspective and what an individual thinks is the best outcome, depending upon their own goals or personal opinions on what they would like to see. I personally prefer an ending where the future is ripe for chaos and complete upheaval. the fate of ferelden, or any nation, for that matter, is not important in political terms for me. I prefer an ending left open to major upheavals in the future. Thus, Anora as sole queen is my favored route. I also like doing the DR because of the wild card it leaves open for future chaos. The elves getting beat down doesn't bother me. In the long run, it might be good for them. Eventually, they will either get rubbed out of existance, or wake up and actually do something constructive about their situations.

[errant_knight]

Can this not become another Wynne hate thread? Pretty please?

Modifié par errant_knight, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:06 .

[Sarah1281]

I think that one post mentioning new information I found in the course of looking up Alistair's ending (OT) and two comments on that information hardly means this thread is in danger of becoming another Wynne hate thread.

[IanPolaris]

Actually there may well have been Dumat's blood available when Dumat was slain. Apparently, Dumat's body was killed many times but to no avail in the first blight. I am guessing the first Grey Wardens discovered quite by accident that it took a Ghoul (before losing his mind) to actually defeat the archdemon for real, and the rest was discovered by trial and error. Remember that first blight lasted most of a century.



-Polaris