231 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Actually...



"Finally, nearly two centuries after the first Old God rose from the earth, the Grey Wardens assembled the armies of men and dwarves at the Battle of Silent Fields. It was then that Dumat was finally slain and the First Blight ended." -Codex Entry: The First Blight, Chapter 4

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Actually...

"Finally, nearly two centuries after the first Old God rose from the earth, the Grey Wardens assembled the armies of men and dwarves at the Battle of Silent Fields. It was then that Dumat was finally slain and the First Blight ended." -Codex Entry: The First Blight, Chapter 4

I stand corrected.  Nevertheless plenty of time for Dumat to be bodily slain multiple times.....

-Polaris

[errant_knight]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually there may well have been Dumat's blood available when Dumat was slain. Apparently, Dumat's body was killed many times but to no avail in the first blight. I am guessing the first Grey Wardens discovered quite by accident that it took a Ghoul (before losing his mind) to actually defeat the archdemon for real, and the rest was discovered by trial and error. Remember that first blight lasted most of a century.

-Polaris

Imagine how disheartening that must have been, to battle the archdemon again and again, only to have it return. Once they discovered what it took, being a grey warden must have seemed like the most important thing in the world.

[Maria13]

errant_knight wrote...


I think so, myself, and he does leave if the PC dies. At the same time, he has a strong sense of duty and honor, and believes that the warden cause is a very honorable one. I'm sure he's attracted to that, and having a purpose. I've always thought that  Alistair might end up disillusioned with the wardens if he spent a long time there, though. Knowing that the wardens 'do some pretty extreme things,' and having to do them yourself are very different things, and Alistair has very clear views of right and wrong. I can't imagine Alistair choosing to burn Amaranthine, for example, or even following an order to do so--not and be able to live with himself afterwards.

Yes I think that is the essential duality in Alistair a deep sense of honour/duty which is at war with the natural desire to be happy and loved.  The first part though its end result is extremely altruistic comes from a dark place, the childhood of an unloved and superfluous bastard, a lack of self esteem and self destructive tendencies...

The second part is extremely underdeveloped but hopefully will flower once he is given the power to determine his own future either as a king or a warden. Therefore, his disappearances might actually be positive events, he has finally decided to live for himself.

Divide between the two is bridged by guilt...

[errant_knight]

Maria13 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...


I think so, myself, and he does leave if the PC dies. At the same time, he has a strong sense of duty and honor, and believes that the warden cause is a very honorable one. I'm sure he's attracted to that, and having a purpose. I've always thought that  Alistair might end up disillusioned with the wardens if he spent a long time there, though. Knowing that the wardens 'do some pretty extreme things,' and having to do them yourself are very different things, and Alistair has very clear views of right and wrong. I can't imagine Alistair choosing to burn Amaranthine, for example, or even following an order to do so--not and be able to live with himself afterwards.

Yes I think that is the essential duality in Alistair a deep sense of honour/duty which is at war with the natural desire to be happy and loved.  The first part though its end result is extremely altruistic comes from a dark place, the childhood of an unloved and superfluous bastard, a lack of self esteem and self destructive tendencies...

The second part is extremely underdeveloped but hopefully will flower once he is given the power to determine his own future either as a king or a warden. Therefore, his disappearances might actually be positive events, he has finally decided to live for himself.

Divide between the two is bridged by guilt...

At the same time, I don't think his strength of character, or his essentially positive outlook should be minimized. He's not a dark and brooding fellow by nature, which he could easily have become given his childhood and being forced into the Chantry. He sees things through his sense of humor, which is one of his strongest characteristics. He doubts himself, but is still resilient, not behaving self destructively until he's lost pretty much everything. My feeling is that he'd eventually pull himself out of that with or without outside intervention, although it would happen much more quickly if he had an honorable purpose--something he could believe in again, although I suspect that an exiled Alistair who experienced the things he did durling the blight would be more suspicious in general.

[Shinobu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So Alistair's devotion to the Warden Order is more devotion to the individuals who happen to be Wardens (Duncan and the PC) rather than the cause. In that case he would be happy staying a Warden if the PC is with him but not so happy rebuilding the Order by himself?

If you die, doesn't Warden!Alistair quit because it's 'not the same'?

From the wiki:

"If The Warden sacrifices herself to kill the Archdemon, and Alistair is in love with her and is left at the gate in the final battle, he survives but feels great grief over her loss. He eventually leaves the Grey Wardens, and travels to Duncan's birthplace to honor him. Where he goes afterward is unknown."

 
If you die and GW!Alistair was warm or better but not in love it's "Alistair returned to the Grey Wardens for a time, insisting that new recruits pay respect to (Warden)'s sacrifice and campaigning to relax some of the order's more secretive policies. But in time, he left the Wardens once more, declaring that it simply no longer felt right." If it was love it's "Alistair felt the loss of his love keenly. Although he returned to the Grey Wardens for a time, he was heard to say that it simply was not the same anymore. Much to Queen Anora's relief, he resigned from the order and left Ferelden for good."

Thanks for looking that up! I'm glad to see Alistair is not a slavish devotee of the Wardens but tries to change them for what he believes to be "the better." That ties in with what errant_knight said:

errant_knight wrote...

I think so, myself, and he does leave if the PC dies. At the same time,
he has a strong sense of duty and honor, and believes that the warden
cause is a very honorable one. I'm sure he's attracted to that, and
having a purpose. I've always thought that  Alistair might end up
disillusioned with the wardens if he spent a long time there, though.
Knowing that the wardens 'do some pretty extreme things,' and having to
do them yourself are very different things, and Alistair has very clear
views of right and wrong. I can't imagine Alistair choosing to burn
Amaranthine, for example, or even following an order to do so--not and
be able to live with himself afterwards.

As a player I'm pretty disillusioned with them, so can see this happening. It seems leaving Alistair with the Wardens is pointless unless the PC is there. (What happens to him with HNM+Anora ruling?)  As Warden Commander the PC would have the power to institute changes in the Order (in Ferelden), would listen to at least some of Alistair's advice (otherwise they wouldn't have been in a warm relationship), and would provide a stable "family" for him. Alistair could do good and feel competent/respected. There is the OGB, but if the PC is male and does the DR (sparing Alistair), I think he could be pretty content with the outcome (apart from eventually becoming a ghoul, but that will happen no matter what).

[Shinobu]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Remember that the other big thing about Alistair was his guilt at surviving Duncan at Ostagar. He believed he should have died instead, according to his words at the Gauntlet. So letting his fellow Grey Warden take the blow (a fellow Grey Warden who was his junior, no less) might not have been easy on him.

You're right. I guess that's yet another reason to spare Loghain -- no one feels guilty about being alive.

[Shinobu]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

As far as "best endings" go, that really is a matter of eprspective and what an individual thinks is the best outcome, depending upon their own goals or personal opinions on what they would like to see. I personally prefer an ending where the future is ripe for chaos and complete upheaval. the fate of ferelden, or any nation, for that matter, is not important in political terms for me. I prefer an ending left open to major upheavals in the future. Thus, Anora as sole queen is my favored route. I also like doing the DR because of the wild card it leaves open for future chaos. The elves getting beat down doesn't bother me. In the long run, it might be good for them. Eventually, they will either get rubbed out of existance, or wake up and actually do something constructive about their situations.

Interesting. Do you prefer chaos believing it to be "good for Ferelden" or for some other reason, like: it's fun, it indicates progress, it's an opportunity to have adventures/make a profit, etc.?

[nos_astra]

Shinobu wrote...
You're right. I guess that's yet another reason to spare Loghain -- no one feels guilty about being alive.

What?

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

What reason does any PC!Warden ever have for believing Riordan? I'm not saying he is lying, merely that he may be mistaken. Certainly his judgment, as shown in game, hasn't exactly been the best.

(husband)

It's basic human nature to trust authorities especially in areas where you lack experience.   When you meet Riodan you have lots and lots of hands on experience when it comes to fighting darkspawn, but when it comes to the academic side of what makes them tick you really are a babe in the woods (except for a few occasions like encountering the broodmother).

Modifié par Addai67, 30 décembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

I'm sort of befuddled with the whole 'destroy the soul' thing.  I'm happy to believe that both the AD and GW 'souls' are destroyed.  But what is really confusing the old noggin is the why of it. 

Why are both 'souls' destroyed? 

Assume for arguments sake that the Chantry version is correct.  The Chantry state that when the Tevinter Magister Lords entered the Golden City the Maker cast them out.  The Golden City was perfection and static prior to that moment but becomes transitory and corrupt after that moment.  The Tevinter Lords, now tainted, return as the first of the Dark Spawn and seek out the 'Old Gods' that spurred them on to the seat of the Maker.  Once found the 'Old God' becomes infected with this taint.  So that is the official Chantry version relating to both the taint and the Blight.  But let's stick with the taint. 

The GW is self infected with the taint via the Joining.  So the initial sequence of infections is:  The Magister Lords (the first and all subsequent Dark Spawn),  The Arch Demon (via the Dark Spawn) and then the Gray Wardens (via self infection).  We are also told by Riordan that the Joining requires a supply of AD blood but that this has been lost so no more GWs can be created.  Dumat must have been the source of the original supply of AD blood but before that it seems that the GWs simply drunk the blood of their enemy -- ritualistic no matter how you look at it. 

So the AD blood doesn't appear to be critical to destroying the AD as there was none available when Dumat is killed.

So if the 'soul' being destroyed has nothing to do with the AD's blood then it must be the taint itself regardless of its source.  But this still doesn't help explain why both the AD and the GW 'souls' are destroyed?  Annihilation is a word that comes to mind when I think of this problem.  We are told that the 'Old Gods' were pure 'evil' and yet we know that the GWs are no saints so a 'good/evil' reaction of the sort we expect from matter/anti-matter doesn't seem to apply either?

Any ideas?  Because my head is sort of stuck in a loop on this and I'd like some sleep tonight.

And just so that it remains OT:  Alistair's 'soul' cannot live with itself at all, not in the physical realm and I strongly suspect not in the corporeal realm either.  So, as a friend (even though I dislike Alistair's personality I cannot deny his loyalty and freely given friendship) I tend to see it as an act of mercy to allow him to take the final blow.

(husband)


A few thoughts.


1) It's always seemed to me that the "Soul Destroyed" saying is just an idiom for saying "You die no savings throw allowed".



2) If you are going to use the world "Soul", you should do so specifically according to the game lore and not do so according to our own collequialisms, (where the word is used often as a synonym for spirit).

"...It is said that a long time ago, the Maker created the Fade as His first world. His first children were the spirits of the Fade and the Maker believed He had made them in His own image. Yet the Maker turned away from His first children, because while they could alter their world at will, they lacked a soul, and could only copy, not create or imagine for themselves.".    Here the soul is the center of creativity and not the persons spiritual existence.



3) The idea of annhilating the persons spiritual existence would seem strange and not consistent philisophically speaking (especially neoplatonism that has influenced judeochristian tradition).   The Maker is the creator of the person, having an "old god" erase the existence of a person would be like an effect be greater than the cause (Assuming that the Maker is the supreme God and the Old God is a created being or emanation).

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

There is a disturbing psychological experiment where the subject is encouraged to apply increasingly dangerous levels of electric shock when a (planted) subject responds incorrectly to questions. Alarmingly a high number of individuals effectively would have executed the planted subject had the levels of shock been real. It is believed that they did this solely on the authority of the white coat and convincing behaviour of the controlling scientist. Weird!

I am very familiar with the "Milgrim's experiment" (having been a psych major), but that still doesn't change the fact that operating "in a state of agency" is a very normal part of human behavior.   Without it you could not receive the help of any knowledgeable authority.   Undergoing surgery for illness for instance would be impossible.    This is something Milgrim himself said back in the day of the early 1960s.   It not the state of agency that is bad but rather the inability or unwillingness to disengage when the authority very obviously does not warrant our trust.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 décembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[Maria13]

errant_knight wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...


I think so, myself, and he does leave if the PC dies. At the same time, he has a strong sense of duty and honor, and believes that the warden cause is a very honorable one. I'm sure he's attracted to that, and having a purpose. I've always thought that  Alistair might end up disillusioned with the wardens if he spent a long time there, though. Knowing that the wardens 'do some pretty extreme things,' and having to do them yourself are very different things, and Alistair has very clear views of right and wrong. I can't imagine Alistair choosing to burn Amaranthine, for example, or even following an order to do so--not and be able to live with himself afterwards.

Yes I think that is the essential duality in Alistair a deep sense of honour/duty which is at war with the natural desire to be happy and loved.  The first part though its end result is extremely altruistic comes from a dark place, the childhood of an unloved and superfluous bastard, a lack of self esteem and self destructive tendencies...

The second part is extremely underdeveloped but hopefully will flower once he is given the power to determine his own future either as a king or a warden. Therefore, his disappearances might actually be positive events, he has finally decided to live for himself.

Divide between the two is bridged by guilt...

At the same time, I don't think his strength of character, or his essentially positive outlook should be minimized. He's not a dark and brooding fellow by nature, which he could easily have become given his childhood and being forced into the Chantry. He sees things through his sense of humor, which is one of his strongest characteristics. He doubts himself, but is still resilient, not behaving self destructively until he's lost pretty much everything. My feeling is that he'd eventually pull himself out of that with or without outside intervention, although it would happen much more quickly if he had an honorable purpose--something he could believe in again, although I suspect that an exiled Alistair who experienced the things he did durling the blight would be more suspicious in general.

You are certainly right about the sense of humour and it trumps his guilt almost every time.

[jpdipity]

To answer the OP:

I believe the best outcome for Alistair and Fereldan is to harden Alistair and place him on the throne alone.

In my opinion, it is good for Alistair to be hardened.  He is stronger and more sure of himself because of it. 

I also don't believe that Alistair is better off dead or a drunk.  That's just silly.

Lastly, like Bhelen's reason for executing Harrowmont, I believe that whoever is not on the throne needs to be executed to ensure that there is not future opposition and to force unity among those who would otherwise support "the other guy".

Marrying Alistair to Anora is a cruel thing to do to Alistair.  They may eventually grow to love one another, but she thinks so poorly of him prior to the Landsmeet and continues to push him away even later.  It is just wrong to force that union if there are other options available. 

Anora on the throne alone will execute Alistair, as she should so I won't persuade her otherwise, and Alistair is not better off dead; so, Anora cannot be on the throne.

So, the only option left is Alistair on the throne alone (or married to HNF).  Alistair may not desire the throne, but he is willing to become King because it is his duty.  Alistair will be a dutiful, reluctant King.  

Although the epilogue slides show absolutely no difference, I like to RP that hardened Alistair is even further hardened by losing his love to the Archdemon.  Much like Maric was with losing Katriel.  FEs in love with Alistair always do the US - it just seems to fit nicely.

Now, if you want to discuss what is best for Fereldan only - I don't think it matters much as long as Alistair is hardened, the epilogues all have relatively happy endings and are pretty vague.  So, if you want to exclude Alistair's well-being from the equation, I don't think it matters.

Modifié par jpdipity, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[Shinobu]

klarabella wrote...

Shinobu wrote...
You're right. I guess that's yet another reason to spare Loghain -- no one feels guilty about being alive.

What?

Oops, is my hypocrisy showing?:innocent: It's true. Destroying souls is bad and I should feel equally guilty sacrificing Loghain as Alistair... but I don't. Hmm. This must be how the Alistair-sacrificers feel.

[ejoslin]

jpdipity wrote...

To answer the OP:

I believe the best outcome for Alistair and Fereldan is to harden Alistair and place him on the throne alone.

In my opinion, it is good for Alistair to be hardened.  He is stronger and more sure of himself because of it. 

I also don't believe that Alistair is better off dead or a drunk.  That's just silly.

Lastly, like Bhelen's reason for executing Harrowmont, I believe that whoever is not on the throne needs to be executed to ensure that there is not future opposition and to force unity among those who would otherwise support "the other guy".

Marrying Alistair to Anora is a cruel thing to do to Alistair.  They may eventually grow to love one another, but she thinks so poorly of him prior to the Landsmeet and continues to push him away even later.  It is just wrong to force that union if there are other options available. 

Anora on the throne alone will execute Alistair, as she should so I won't persuade her otherwise, and Alistair is not better off dead; so, Anora cannot be on the throne.

So, the only option left is Alistair on the throne alone (or married to HNF).  Alistair may not desire the throne, but he is willing to become King because it is his duty.  Alistair will be a dutiful, reluctant King.  

Although the epilogue slides show absolutely no difference, I like to RP that hardened Alistair is even further hardened by losing his love to the Archdemon.  Much like Maric was with losing Katriel.  FEs in love with Alistair always do the US - it just seems to fit nicely.

Now, if you want to discuss what is best for Fereldan only - I don't think it matters much as long as Alistair is hardened, the epilogues all have relatively happy endings and are pretty vague.  So, if you want to exclude Alistair's well-being from the equation, I don't think it matters.

Hmmm, the major problem with your argument is one of your points is incorrect except in one situation.  Anora WILL execute Alistair if Loghain survives and the warden doesn't intervene, but that is the ONLY instance where it happens.  There is no mention anywhere else that Anora executes Alistair -- in fact, the epilogues show that he survives.  I can't discard them, for sure -- it's the ending of his story, and it shows him alive, traveling, etc.  

Anora lets Alistair live if solo queen or married to the warden provided he renounces all claims to the throne.  the only time there's an uprising is if he's a drunk.  There's just no indication anywhere that she calls for Alistair's execution except in that one circumstance, and in that circumstance he is refusing to renounce his claim.  And even when he refuses to renounce his claim, Anora will still let him live if the warden requests it.  There is no reason to think that she would kill him -- nothing in game suggests that -- provided he does renounce it.

Edit: I also don't think a political marriage has anything to do with love.  That doesn't mean an empty, soulless existence, however.  Alistair as solo king will also have to marry someone he doesn't love -- someone who may not be nearly as good an administrator as Anora.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 31 décembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Shinobu]

Glaucon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

There is a disturbing psychological experiment where the subject is encouraged to apply increasingly dangerous levels of electric shock when a (planted) subject responds incorrectly to questions. Alarmingly a high number of individuals effectively would have executed the planted subject had the levels of shock been real. It is believed that they did this solely on the authority of the white coat and convincing behaviour of the controlling scientist. Weird!

I am very familiar with the "Milgrim's experiment" (having been a psych major), but that still doesn't change the fact that operating "in a state of agency" is a very normal part of human behavior.   Without it you could not receive the help of any knowledgeable authority.   Undergoing surgery for illness for instance would be impossible.    This is something Milgrim himself said back in the day of the early 1960s.   It not the state of agency that is bad but rather the inability or unwillingness to disengage when the authority very obviously does not warrant our trust.

It is disturbing to me.  When I first saw the recording of the experiment and its commentary my jaw nearly fell off.  Unwarranted deference is such a weird behaviour?

It is disturbing, but it's also human nature. The person pushing the button, in essence, feels that the "white coat" ordering him too do so 1) knows enough to know if it's safe and 2) takes responsibility for any negative outcome. This is how "good people" do bad things -- they unconsciously shift the responsibility to the "authority figure" and then "just follow orders."

I'm probably going to regret bringing this up again, OH NEVER MIND...

Modifié par Shinobu, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:31 .

[Shinobu]

So, to unofficially sum up what we have so far (correct me if I misrepresent your points):

Almost everyone favors hardening Alistair so he will no longer be the world's butt monkey.
No one believes Alistair being a bitter drunk is a good outcome for him.

Many people favor hardened Alistair marrying Anora because all Fereldens are happy (even the elves).
Those who do not marry them are split between Alistair alone and Anora alone.
- Alistair alone may find happiness with a wife of his choosing, doing "good," and being respected.
- Alistair is a "fair" king with the good of the common people at heart.
- City elves do not riot/have their Bann killed under Alistair.
On the other hand:
- Alistair has stated repeatedly that he doesn't want to be king.
- Anora is a more experienced ruler and has been doing a good job. Continuity in leadership is good.
- Elves shmelves. The greater good demands it.

Many people spare Loghain and refuse the Dark Ritual so that he can redeem himself.
- It's good for Ferelden morale to have a Hero redeemed.
- Alistair and the Warden get to live.

Of those who don't spare Loghain, there is a split between those who do the DR and those who don't:
Those who don't:
- Alistair/Warden wants to die. The loss of his/her soul, if it occurs, does not diminsh the Universe unduly.
- Alistair would not be happy siring a bastard and giving said child to Morrigan.
- DR is a possible source of EVIL.

Those who do the dark ritual:
- The Warden/Alistair are more useful alive than dead. Possibly destroying souls is bad.
- Male Wardens can spare Alistair from doing the DR.
- The DR is a possible source of GOOD.
- If BAD, the Warden can kick its butt later.

Also:
Many people are Communists when young but grow out of it.
Some people consider Utilitarianism bad.
A negative hypothesis cannot be proven.
Dwarves can be forced to enter the Fade but it freaks them out.

Modifié par Shinobu, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:57 .

[jpdipity]

ejoslin wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

To answer the OP:

I believe the best outcome for Alistair and Fereldan is to harden Alistair and place him on the throne alone.

In my opinion, it is good for Alistair to be hardened.  He is stronger and more sure of himself because of it. 

I also don't believe that Alistair is better off dead or a drunk.  That's just silly.

Lastly, like Bhelen's reason for executing Harrowmont, I believe that whoever is not on the throne needs to be executed to ensure that there is not future opposition and to force unity among those who would otherwise support "the other guy".

Marrying Alistair to Anora is a cruel thing to do to Alistair.  They may eventually grow to love one another, but she thinks so poorly of him prior to the Landsmeet and continues to push him away even later.  It is just wrong to force that union if there are other options available. 

Anora on the throne alone will execute Alistair, as she should so I won't persuade her otherwise, and Alistair is not better off dead; so, Anora cannot be on the throne.

So, the only option left is Alistair on the throne alone (or married to HNF).  Alistair may not desire the throne, but he is willing to become King because it is his duty.  Alistair will be a dutiful, reluctant King.  

Although the epilogue slides show absolutely no difference, I like to RP that hardened Alistair is even further hardened by losing his love to the Archdemon.  Much like Maric was with losing Katriel.  FEs in love with Alistair always do the US - it just seems to fit nicely.

Now, if you want to discuss what is best for Fereldan only - I don't think it matters much as long as Alistair is hardened, the epilogues all have relatively happy endings and are pretty vague.  So, if you want to exclude Alistair's well-being from the equation, I don't think it matters.

Hmmm, the major problem with your argument is one of your points is incorrect except in one situation.  Anora WILL execute Alistair if Loghain survives and the warden doesn't intervene, but that is the ONLY instance where it happens.  There is no mention anywhere else that Anora executes Alistair -- in fact, the epilogues show that he survives.  I can't discard them, for sure -- it's the ending of his story, and it shows him alive, traveling, etc.  

Anora lets Alistair live if solo queen or married to the warden provided he renounces all claims to the throne.  the only time there's an uprising is if he's a drunk.  There's just no indication anywhere that she calls for Alistair's execution except in that one circumstance, and in that circumstance he is refusing to renounce his claim.  And even when he refuses to renounce his claim, Anora will still let him live if the warden requests it.  There is no reason to think that she would kill him -- nothing in game suggests that -- provided he does renounce it.

Edit: I also don't think a political marriage has anything to do with love.  That doesn't mean an empty, soulless existence, however.  Alistair as solo king will also have to marry someone he doesn't love -- someone who may not be nearly as good an administrator as Anora.  

Sorry, I wasn't clear and I think given the circumstances I mentioned, he is executed, but I could be wrong.

1 - I mentioned that whoever is not on the throne needs to be executed - the whole Bhelen/Harrowmont reference.  So, the warden would not intervene to prevent his execution.
2 - It is in Alistair's best interest to always be hardened because it makes him grow as a character.  Although not all my wardens harden him - they are not looking out for his best interests either.  In reference of the Alistair's best interest, he should be hardened in my opinion. 

Given the fact that Alistair is hardened and my Warden refuses to intervene, I believe Anora executes Alistair because hardened Alistair doesn't renounce the crown.  I could be wrong - can't say I've ever truly explored that option myself.

As far as the political marriage goes - Anora shows a great deal of disgust for Alistair which I don't think is a productive relationship whether political or romantic.  So, in his best interest, he would be better off alone or with someone else.  He runs the country fine on his own; so, I am not concerned about him finding an administrator equal to Anora.

Modifié par jpdipity, 01 janvier 2011 - 04:51 .

[ejoslin]

jpdipity wrote...


Sorry, I wasn't clear and I think given the circumstances I mentioned, he is executed, but I could be wrong.

1 - I mentioned that whoever is not on the throne needs to be executed - the whole Bhelen/Harrowmont reference.  So, the warden would not intervene to prevent his execution.
2 - It is in Alistair's best interest to always be hardened because it makes him grow as a character.  Although not all my wardens harden him - they are not looking out for his best interests either.  In reference of the Alistair's best interest, he should be hardened in my opinion. 

Given the fact that Alistair is hardened and my Warden refuses to intervene, I believe Anora executes Alistair because hardened Alistair doesn't renounce the crown.  I could be wrong - can't say I've ever truly explored that option myself.

As far as the political marriage goes - Anora shows a great deal of disgust for Alistair which I don't think is a productive relationship whether political or romantic.  So, in his best interest, he would be better off alone or with someone else.  He runs the country fine on his own; so, I am not concerned about him finding an administrator equal to Anora.

The only time Alistair is executed is if he does not renounce his claim to the throne.  If you kill Loghain, Anora gives Alistair a chance to renounce his claim, which he does.  And as long as he does, the subject never comes up. And if he is romancing the warden, you hear about how he continues to live in his epilogue.

Anora does have some nice things to say about Alistair if they're getting married.

Hardening Alistair isn't great for him if you want to leave him as a gray warden.  I don't see unhardened Alistair as a bad thing if he is not king.  His sweetest "I love you" is if you do his personal quest at a point where when it's done, he's in love and you don't harden him.

Edit; Hardened Alistair renounces his claim to the throne as long as Loghain is dead.

The thing is, if you spare Loghain, Alistair will not relinquish his claim to the throne if you make Anora solo queen, hardened or not, because he wants the throne in order to kill Loghain.  If you kill Loghain, Alistair is not nearly as forceful about wanting the throne and relinquishes all his rights to it when Anora asks.

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 janvier 2011 - 05:02 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Anora lets Alistair live if solo queen or married to the warden provided he renounces all claims to the throne.  the only time there's an uprising is if he's a drunk.  There's just no indication anywhere that she calls for Alistair's execution except in that one circumstance, and in that circumstance he is refusing to renounce his claim.  And even when he refuses to renounce his claim, Anora will still let him live if the warden requests it.  There is no reason to think that she would kill him -- nothing in game suggests that -- provided he does renounce it.

That's not really true.  He's just saying he wants to leave, and as Anora well knows, he never wanted the throne to begin with.  He even says "I want nothing to do with any of you."  But she never even gives him a chance to renounce his claim in that instance.  It's just my guess, but I'd say Anora would prefer to execute Alistair in any case but that is the only case where she feels politically secure enough to do it.  Otherwise she assumes the Warden would back Alistair over her, but in this case she sees the Warden taking Loghain's side and hers for the throne.  The game sort of plays with this idea by having her say "they've taken her to Fort Drakon" (in the case of a female Warden) and Eamon corrects her, saying they need to get Alistair out, too.

Edit: I also don't think a political marriage has anything to do with love.  That doesn't mean an empty, soulless existence, however.  Alistair as solo king will also have to marry someone he doesn't love -- someone who may not be nearly as good an administrator as Anora.  

Not necessarily.  At least when he's made solo king, he'll have a chance to pick someone he likes better than Anora.  It will always have to be a political choice, but doesn't have to be a woman he dislikes and who doesn't respect him.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 janvier 2011 - 05:03 .