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[Raelis25]

I'm sure this has already been discussed many times in other threads, but I couldn't find any such discussions, and I just don't have the time or patience to go through all Loghain threads on this forums.

I have a bit of a moral dilemma here and I'd like other players' input. I have never spared Loghain before but I want to. I want to get to know him as a character, and I don't believe he's an irredeemable monster, even though his crimes are heinous. And what's most important, up to this point I've been playing a character who is merciful and would give a chance for redemption to most of the criminals/shady guys he encountered. My HN spared Sten despite the fact that Sten had slaughtered an entire family, including children (so HN would have more reasons than anyone else to want Sten to rot in that cage - he'd draw parallels with his own family being slaughtered). He spared Zevran, the assasin who tried to kill him. He spared Jowan and gave him a chance to make up for all the wrongs he had done by insisting Jowan be sent into the Fade to save Connor. He spared the Blood Magein the Tower. It makes sense for him to give a similar chance to Loghain.

But at the same time can't help but feel it's be a case of massive hypocricy on my N's part to leave Loghain alive and deny his best friend Alistair a chance to get revenge. After all, my HN had zero qualms about executing Howe. And he wouldbe pissed as hell if someone suggested to him that Howe should live. Satisfying his own thrist for revenge and denying Alistair to satisfy his own - isn't it just unbelievably hypocritical?

But then again, killing Loghain after sparing the likes of Sten and Jowan would be just as hypocritical, wouldn't it?

So, all those who play as a goody-two-shoes HN, what do you do in this situation and how do you justify the chboices your character makes? Maybe reading about your experiences will help me make a decision. Seriosuly, I've been agonizing about tbis forever!

[mousestalker]

Loghain is the most respected military commander in Ferelden. He has followers who are devoted to him. He has a faction in the Landsmeet. His daughter loves him. None of the following has any impact in game, but all of it would apply to real world considerations.



If you want the absolute largest and best equipped army possible, you want to unite all of Ferelden and give it the best leadership possible, then sparing Loghain is the sensible plan, especially if he then becomes a Grey Warden. Your job as a Grey Warden is to stop the Blight. Not indulge in reprisals.



Howe was a divisive figure. He had no friends, one patron and many enemies. Killing him does not diminish your forces at all. It can only add to them.



Loghain is well regarded by many in Ferelden. His forces would not be at all enthusiastic about fighting for someone who had him killed. Some would fight, out of necessity. Some might very well scarper off to the Free Marches instead. You need his army.



From the perspective of getting the biggest and best army possible, I'd argue the best result is to have Alistair marry Anora and spare Loghain. That unites the country, settles the civil war and gets everyone pointed in the right direction. That it's not what Anora, Alistair and Loghain necessarily want is besides the point.

[Tigress M]

Despite Loghain's relationship with Howe, I believe that both the HN and DN have the most logical reasons for sparing Loghain because of all the Origins, those are the two who would most likely have a good grasp of military strategy and therefore could most easily recognize that Loghain's retreat at Ostagar was not necessarily a betrayal, but a sound strategic move.

As a HN, you would also have a very good idea of what Fereldan needs, a strong General, thereby making it easier to spare Loghain, despite his ties to your worst enemy, in light of saving Fereldan. I think to a HN, the best answer in their head would be to put Alistair on the throne and spare Loghain (don't metagame, knowing what Alistair is likely to do).

Now, I'm not real versed on how this works since I never marry Alistair to Anora, but I believe if you have hardened Alistair and gotten him to agree to marry Anora before hand, that you can spare Loghain and put A&A on the throne, although Alistair will still leave the Wardens. I'm sure someone who's more versed in this will correct me if I'm wrong.

Modifié par Tigress M, 26 décembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[ElZeeTrois]

Well, your human noble probably knows Loghain's story and how he and his family suffered at the hands of the Orlesians. The paranoia is understandable, but like the Dalish keeper he seems far too old and his hate buried to deep to let go.



I had my noble recruit him only to have him give the killing blow (I figured her cunning was high enough to decode certain tomes in the Warden cache in Denerim). She had to show him that the darkspawn were the only thing the Wardens cared about, Ferelden or Orlesian. That and I thought my noble would find it fitting that he'd be the one to end the thing that spun out of control. She promised Alistair that she'd kill him and she did, in a sort of round about way.

[mousestalker]

@Tigress M, that's exactly what happens. Plus you then get the very funny choice of convincing Loghain to do the Dark Ritual (they did an excellent job of conveying just how awkward it would be) or allowing him to immolate himself on Archie. If you don't want Loghain to live, look up what happens in the DR on Youtube.

If you do the DR, Alistair is still rather angry at you in the epilogue and Awakening. If Loghain dies, Alistair almost forgives you.

Modifié par mousestalker, 26 décembre 2010 - 01:34 .

[Raelis25]

mousestalker wrote...

From the perspective of getting the biggest and best army possible, I'd argue the best result is to have Alistair marry Anora and spare Loghain. That unites the country, settles the civil war and gets everyone pointed in the right direction. That it's not what Anora, Alistair and Loghain necessarily want is besides the point.

Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to go for in this play-through. It's just that it occured to me that the situations of HN and Alistair are so similar, it'd be a real betrayal of my friendship with Alistair to spare Loghain, and it does not sit well with me. OTOH, killing a man who I think is not beyond redemption (and in front of his daughter, too) does not sit well with me either. Damn you for making it so hard, Bioware!

It has also occurred to me that Alistair had no problem with a child murderer's presence in the group (didn't he even suggest we should free him because he'd be useful for our cause?), which also makes him a bit of a hypocrite. I think the only child who survived the massacre would not be too happy with my Warden's choice to free the murderer and give him a chance to be a hero...

Thank you all for your input. I realize that from a practical POV sparing Loghain is a reasonable choice. I was looking at it from a purely emotional POV.

I'm going to spare Loghain and make Alistair marry Anora, then Loghain will sacrifice himself. I like to think that eventually my Warden and Alistair will reconcile.

Modifié par Raelis25, 26 décembre 2010 - 01:39 .

[mousestalker]

For the emotional impact, I wrote a fanfic that stemmed from my sparing Loghain as a City Elf. It tore my Warden apart. She was in love with Alistair and it ruined that. She wound up skipping the DR and killing Archie.



That was an angst ridden playthrough, that was.

[Tigress M]

Raelis25 wrote...
Thank you for your input. I realize that from a practical POV sparing Loghain is a reasonable choice. I was looking at it from a purely emotional POV.

First, let me say that I am a huge Alistair fan and have been since day one.  So, when I say that as a friend of Alistair's, your job is to help him grow up, I say that with all the sincerity and respect in the world for my favorite character.  

It would not be at all out of character for your HN, who cares deeply for his friend, to do what's good for Alistair, vs what Alistair wants done.  Emotionally, it may look like you're betraying your friend, but you're not.  You're really helping him -- he just might not see it that way.  LOL

[IchikoSakura]

mousestalker wrote...

@Tigress M, that's exactly what happens. Plus you then get the very funny choice of convincing Loghain to do the Dark Ritual (they did an excellent job of conveying just how awkward it would be) or allowing him to immolate himself on Archie. If you don't want Loghain to live, look up what happens in the DR on Youtube.

If you do the DR, Alistair is still rather angry at you in the epilogue and Awakening. If Loghain dies, Alistair almost forgives you.

I didn't get the impression that he forgives you, when you were in love with him. He says something in the line of "Thank you for marring me to the daughter of my enemy, now everytime I look at her she reminds me of him."
That was the answer I got when my HNF was in love with Alistair and spaired Loghain and put A&A on the throne.

IMO there's one little plothole in the whole spairing Loghain/Alistair king outcome. And it's the lack of the "right of conscription". In all the origins stories you can be forced to become a Grey Warden, and it's said that no authorities have the right to deny the Gray Wardens a conscription. So when Alistair is king and wants to execute Loghain, why does Riordan or the PCWarden to relay on the right of conscription. You have to marry A&A whichs pisses him even more of to let Loghain live.

[Raelis25]

Tigress M wrote...

Raelis25 wrote...
Thank you for your input. I realize that from a practical POV sparing Loghain is a reasonable choice. I was looking at it from a purely emotional POV.

First, let me say that I am a huge Alistair fan and have been since day one.  So, when I say that as a friend of Alistair's, your job is to help him grow up, I say that with all the sincerity and respect in the world for my favorite character.  

It would not be at all out of character for your HN, who cares deeply for his friend, to do what's good for Alistair, vs what Alistair wants done.  Emotionally, it may look like you're betraying your friend, but you're not.  You're really helping him -- he just might not see it that way.  LOL

Yeah, I thought about this as well. I agree that not letting Aistair indulge in his thirst for revenge might be beneficial for him... With any other Warden, this rationale works perfectly (for me). But my discomfort with this situation is mostly due to the fact that HN and Ali have such similar situations. If someone told my HN that Howe should live, and he's childish for not wanting to accept it, I wouldn't want to see his reaction.  I guess there's just no chance for my Warden to come out  of this situation without feeling like a total hypocrite!

[ejoslin]

If your warden is marrying Anora, you could make it about her instead of Alistair.

[Raelis25]

No, no, I'm not marrying Anora. My Warden does not have any political aspirations whatsoever. I'd rather run away with Zev.
*sigh* It'd be so much easier if Alistair wasn't my bestest buddy in the whole world...

Modifié par Raelis25, 26 décembre 2010 - 02:00 .

[moogie1963]

hi everyone, when you start playing a human nobel you have to listen to the father at the beginning when he argues with arl howe. you can figure out that he is loyal to the king. As well as the teacher Aldous also states in the library that the couslands are royal to the king.

When you listen to nan in the kitchen she will tell you about the story from mabari. From my understanding this story is actually about honor, treason and duty. And father cousland mentioned at least twice that a Cousland will always honor their duty. So my conclusion after all the talks with everyone would be to put Alister onto the throne as he is the only one from this line of royals.

[Sarah1281]

IMO there's one little plothole in the whole spairing Loghain/Alistair king outcome. And it's the lack of the "right of conscription". In all the origins stories you can be forced to become a Grey Warden, and it's said that no authorities have the right to deny the Gray Wardens a conscription. So when Alistair is king and wants to execute Loghain, why does Riordan or the PCWarden to relay on the right of conscription. You have to marry A&A whichs pisses him even more of to let Loghain live.

You DO have the right of conscription. The thing about that is, though, that you and Riordan are the only non-Alistair Wardens in Ferelden so if King Alistair doesn't want to cooperate, good luck enforcing it. Plus, when you initially decide to spare Loghain, the way the game is set up with Alistiar trying to claim the throne means that you're not JUST choosing Loghain's fate, you're also choosing between Alistair and Anora. You don't even get the opportunity to say you want Alistair on the throne and then try to spare him and see how Alistair reacts.

But at the same time can't help but feel it's be a case of massive hypocricy on my N's part to leave Loghain alive and deny his best friend Alistair a chance to get revenge. After all, my HN had zero qualms about executing Howe. And he wouldbe pissed as hell if someone suggested to him that Howe should live. Satisfying his own thrist for revenge and denying Alistair to satisfy his own - isn't it just unbelievably hypocritical?

I don't think that's hypocritical at all. No matter how you felt about Howe (and dwarves and human mages wouldn't have known him from Adam), he had to die. You had to get Anora out of there and he was standing in your way. IF there had been an opportunity to spare him, if he had surrendered and Riordan had hung around and suggested rite of conscription which Alistair had supported and you refused to allow then THAT would have been hypocritical. Because if it had happened, you would have reacted like Alistair doesn't make you a hypocrite because it didn't happen and so you didn't have to. That you wanted revenge against Howe is only secondary here because everyone needed him to die.

[Sarah1281]

kya169 wrote...

Raelis25 wrote...

No, no, I'm not marrying Anora. My Warden does not have any political aspirations whatsoever. I'd rather run away with Zev.
*sigh* It'd be so much easier if Alistair wasn't my bestest buddy in the whole world...

 i cant stand Anora's character.  I know royalty (even though she is actually a commoner)  probably really did act in such a fashion, but she is such a witch. 

Yeah, no she's not. Her father was made a noble. Therefore, she is a noble. It's really as simple as that, no matter what rumors might say.

[TheRevanchist]

I would rather not spare Loghain...but sadly that acursed Awakenings ret-con forces my hand. Because I refuse to do the DR at all costs and would sooner spare him to die instead. However spareing Loghain imo does not really change anything...by the time the option becomes avalible all the nobles in the Landsmeet already know what kind of crap he has done recently and probably wouldn't care if he was executed...keep in mind half of those nobles were his supporters...and only one remains loyal at the end of meeting..



Secondly...needing a General? again he is not needed...thats what the HNW is there for...to be the General that Ferelden needs...someone willing to act upon threats that are real...not being paralized by threats that don't exsist. I understand his hatred for Orlias having read The Stolen Throne before I even got the game...but that is no excuse to allow that to cloud his judgement in this situation. Overall that book kind of ticked me off for a lot of reasons (mainly Maric being a horn dog) and while it was good I can never read those events again because it was just outrageous.



I also am under the impression his deeds in that book do not excuse him for his actions takin in the game. Even if his retreat at Ostagar was a good move (and thats a big damn IF imo) The rest of his actions are not so "logical". While I know many people on these forums seem to think he is some kind of evil wicked man with a hidden agenda, Arl Eamon being poisoned is a dirty move on Loghains part no matter how you slice it. So is selling innocent elves to Tevinter slavers. Sending Zeveran after you don't count because you can actually save yourself from that situation whereas the others cant.



Not to mention he stole Jowan from a Templar...while that might not seem like much the Chantry takes that very seriously and is simply another sign of his folly. my HN honors the traditions of the Couslands and is fiercely loyal to the royal line..and therefor Alistair always becomes King (cept for my 1 Prince Consort toon...but the marriage wasn't political for him cuz be likes Anora.) He also reconizes Anora's astounding ability to rule so he has them get married. He hardens Alistair to help him grow up as many here sugest doing. However I don't feel spareing Loghain does this IMO. Hardened Alistair and Anora is the best outcome possible in those regards. The ONLY reason Loghain survives in my universe is because I hate the DR and that damn Awakening ret-con more then him.



The point I tried to make with this rant is this...I don't feel spareing Loghain is worth the risk (without metagame knowledge) he could simply kill you while your sleeping later out of spite...use his political ties to undermine your athority from behind the scenes etc...theres too many possible variables to simply assume he is only an asset and no risk to you what so ever once he knows he isn't dieing. Not to mention my HN thinks his honor is stained beyond redemption, he/she thinks poison and slavery are unforgiveable crimes. While they HN's tend to be very kind hearted and forgiveing...their mercy has limits in regards to things like this.



Sorry for the long post...the subject of Loghain gets me riled up and I have strong opinions on him...

[Sarah1281]

I would rather not spare Loghain...but sadly that acursed Awakenings ret-con forces my hand. Because I refuse to do the DR at all costs and would sooner spare him to die instead.

How so? If you do the US then just don't import. If you killed Alistair, the import remembers this. It's not like much carries over anyway, just the monarch and a brief mention of the Orzammar king as well as if you were married to/mistress of Alistair.

Secondly...needing a General? again he is not needed...thats what the HNW is there for...to be the General that Ferelden needs...someone willing to act upon threats that are real...not being paralized by threats that don't exsist.

Yeah, everyone knows that the Warden is there. Unfortunately, the Warden has never even had control of Highever let alone any experience as a general which is kind of why Anora brings that up in the first place so you really are not a general of Loghain's caliber for all you may be able to let go of the past more.

Edit: It's not like either you or Loghain are actually called upon to act like a general in the slightest, but that's not something you know at the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

With the game being childishly simplistic about warfare, then no, Loghain is not really needed. Nor are all the armies you gather for that matter. But that's metagaming.

In the context of a real war, it is far more reasonable to have a general of Loghain's caliber on your side, if you trust him enough. If you don't, then oh well. Your suspicions would be misplaced, but understandably so.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[TheRevanchist]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I would rather not spare Loghain...but sadly that acursed Awakenings ret-con forces my hand. Because I refuse to do the DR at all costs and would sooner spare him to die instead.

How so? If you do the US then just don't import. If you killed Alistair, the import remembers this. It's not like much carries over anyway, just the monarch and a brief mention of the Orzammar king as well as if you were married to/mistress of Alistair.

Secondly...needing a General? again he is not needed...thats what the HNW is there for...to be the General that Ferelden needs...someone willing to act upon threats that are real...not being paralized by threats that don't exsist.

Yeah, everyone knows that the Warden is there. Unfortunately, the Warden has never even had control of Highever let alone any experience as a general which is kind of why Anora brings that up in the first place so you really are not a general of Loghain's caliber for all you may be able to let go of the past more.

Edit: It's not like either you or Loghain are actually called upon to act like a general in the slightest, but that's not something you know at the Landsmeet.

1. Because I want a full DA2 import...that includes DAO DAA GoA and WH...and thanks to that ret-con US makes no sence at all. and makes a full import impossible...I'll have to decide if I want a "default" DAO file or a "default" everything else otherwise.  Just because nothing is mentioned in Awakening does not mean that import won't mean something in DA2 or beyond.

2. Because you are a Teyrn's son...I am pretty sure Bryce has taught his son's how to be lead men into battle and taught them war strategies...otherwise I doubt he would has trusted you with Highever castle as easily as he did (ignoreing plot nessesity)...with so little men in fact...he must trust your ability to command a great a deal...comeing from someone as experienced as him thats all I need to see. 

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

With the game being childishly simplistic about warfare, then no, Loghain is not really needed. Nor are all the armies you gather for that matter. But that's metagaming.

In the context of a real war, it is far more reasonable to have a general of Loghain's caliber on your side, if you trust him enough. If you don't, then oh well. Your suspicions would be misplaced, but understandably so.

There only misplaced with metagameing knowledge...while I know perfectly well he isn't a souless monster that easts children in their sleep...I do find his actions unforgiveable. On top of that...while he was a good General in TST I don't really think he is in DAO...a good General prepares and acts against threats that are real...not makking paranoid judgements about hypothetical (not to mention dead wrong) enemies that MIGHT do something...the fact remains he lets his hatred blind him of being logical in terms of thinking like a General.

[Sarah1281]

1. Because I want a full DA2 import...that includes DAO DAA GoA and WH...and thanks to that ret-con US makes no sence at all. and makes a full import impossible...I'll have to decide if I want a "default" DAO file or a "default" everything else otherwise. Just because nothing is mentioned in Awakening does not mean that import won't mean something in DA2 or beyond.

I really don't think much of anything from Awakening will carry over. There's not even a save game at the end with DA.

2. Because you are a Teyrn's son...I am pretty sure Bryce has taught his son's how to be lead men into battle and taught them war strategies...otherwise I doubt he would has trusted you with Highever castle as easily as he did (ignoreing plot nessesity)...with so little men in fact...he must trust your ability to command a great a deal...comeing from someone as experienced as him thats all I need to see.

Learning strategies is not the same as having any experience and why would him trusting you to run day-to-day operations in a castle where most of the men are gone mean he at all trusts your ability to lead men into battle? There wasn't supposed to be any fighting up in Highever. Loghain is a better general than you are by virtue of having experience and wiping the floor with the bannorn in the game. He has several personal problems that may lessen his value and trustworthiness like the ones you've mentioned but he knows what he's talking about in war...if he can find the right target.

[Raelis25]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But at the
same time can't help but feel it's be a case of massive hypocricy on my
N's part to leave Loghain alive and deny his best friend Alistair a
chance to get revenge. After all, my HN had zero qualms about executing
Howe. And he wouldbe pissed as hell if someone suggested to him that
Howe should live. Satisfying his own thrist for revenge and denying
Alistair to satisfy his own - isn't it just unbelievably hypocritical?

I don't think that's hypocritical at all. No matter how you felt about
Howe (and dwarves and human mages wouldn't have known him from Adam), he
had to die. You had to get Anora out of there and he was standing in
your way. IF there had been an opportunity to spare him, if he had
surrendered and Riordan had hung around and suggested rite of
conscription which Alistair had supported and you refused to allow then
THAT would have been hypocritical. Because if it had happened, you would
have reacted like Alistair doesn't make you a hypocrite because it
didn't happen and so you didn't have to. That you wanted revenge against
Howe is only secondary here because everyone needed him to die.

You make a good point, although it doesn't really help me much because I always
thought a HN Warden is the one who'd feel a special kinship with
Alistair because they both lost their families. So if HN ended up in the
same position that Alistair did, would he/she be all reasonable and
practical and able to detach him/herself from his/her feelings if
Riordan offered to spare Howe? I have a hard time believing that. My
Warden was lucky enough to be presented with an opportunity to kill Howe
without any obstacles, with everyone cheering, but what would he have
done if he had been in Alistair's shoes? It still smacks of hypocrisy to me. [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

kylecouch wrote...
The point I tried to make with this rant is this...I don't feel spareing Loghain is worth the risk (without metagame knowledge) he could simply kill you while your sleeping later out of spite...use his political ties to undermine your athority from behind the scenes etc...theres too many possible variables to simply assume he is only an asset and no risk to you what so ever once he knows he isn't dieing. Not to mention my HN thinks his honor is stained beyond redemption, he/she thinks poison and slavery are unforgiveable crimes. While they HN's tend to be very kind hearted and forgiveing...their mercy has limits in regards to things like this.

I understand where you're coming from, but did your Warden spare a child murderer, an assasin, or a Blood Mage who'd poisoned Arl Eamon? Where was the guarantee that all those people would not turn on you when it suited them? In that case you should not spare anyone because it's not worth the risk.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...
There only misplaced with metagameing knowledge...while I know perfectly well he isn't a souless monster that easts children in their sleep...I do find his actions unforgiveable. On top of that...while he was a good General in TST I don't really think he is in DAO...a good General prepares and acts against threats that are real...not makking paranoid judgements about hypothetical (not to mention dead wrong) enemies that MIGHT do something...the fact remains he lets his hatred blind him of being logical in terms of thinking like a General.

Not necessarily, I trusted him without metagaming knowledge at all. My trust was well placed.

But I really don't want to discuss this for the billionth time and quite frankly, and don't take it personally, I don't really care. I stopped caring for the game as a whole anyways, so yea. Play however you like.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:41 .