267 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...
Indeed however Louis XVI was still King of France during this time and the American victory is what inspired the French to revolt to begin with...which brought Napolean to power. So much of the power they lost from Napoleans defeat is still in fact intact during this time frame.

It still lost much of its colonial power after the Seven years war and if the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars are any indication, France cannot hope to match Britain at sea (even with Spanish allies). That makes any attempted invasion of the USA virtually impossible. Add that France was also suffering from the economic depression at the time.

Now from what I know, Celene, unlike Louix XVI, is actually a good ruler and her rule has been described as a renaissance. That does not imply, to me, an economic depression or weakness.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Indeed however Louis XVI was still King of France during this time and the American victory is what inspired the French to revolt to begin with...which brought Napolean to power. So much of the power they lost from Napoleans defeat is still in fact intact during this time frame.

It still lost much of its colonial power after the Seven years war and if the Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars are any indication, France cannot hope to match Britain at sea (even with Spanish allies). That makes any attempted invasion of the USA virtually impossible. Add that France was also suffering from the economic depression at the time.

Now from what I know, Celene, unlike Louix XVI, is actually a good ruler and her rule has been described as a renaissance. That does not imply, to me, an economic depression or weakness.

Indeed Celene is probably the best ruler in Thedas we know of thus far...Louis XVI is...imo...the real world version of Cailen...totaly oblivious to the needs of his people. However thankfuly Cailen got married to someone who cared about the countrys future, unlike Louis who between himself and Marie didn't really care what happend as long as they lived it up at the peoples expense. As well Spain practicly ceased to be a threat to anyone after their most "glorious" military blunder involveing the entire Spanish Navy basicly.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think KoP brought up many great points as to the advantages of Orlais vis a vis Ferelden in any question of assimilation and unity, and of the all-but-inevitable assimilation of Ferelden into the Orlesian culture.


I can only wonder how he can hope to continue and henceforth argue why this is a bad thing. :wink:

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 janvier 2011 - 02:54 .

[TheRevanchist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think KoP brought up many great points as to the advantages of Orlais vis a vis Ferelden in any question of assimilation and unity, and of the all-but-inevitable assimilation of Ferelden into the Orlesian culture.


I can only wonder how he can hope to continue and henceforth argue why this is a bad thing. :wink:

lol indeed...it does seem kind of foolhardy to defend such an bass ackwards country. Although to be fair...it is bad to Ferelden because despite such a crappy system...it's a system they personaly enjoy. Probably because lowly nobles have their King bow to them and beg them for support and they wouldn't feel nearly as important if they had to bend knee to an unquestionable Empress...no matter how effective she may be.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Because perhaps the fereldens do not wish to be assimilated.



Sure, the country is backwards in many departments. So? Perhaps the Fereldens do not wish to be assimilated for the sake of advancement. Perhaps they wish to advance in their own sweet time, under their terms, without their culture, traditions, and values being annihilated completely in the process.



We already know that Ferelden values and orlesian values are incompatible, and though orlais might be richer and more advanced, I prefer Ferelden's values of hard work, self-reliance, independance, and a more inclusive attitude towards the general populace.



And given proper leadership for ferelden, by someone who actually cares about the country, Ferelden can advance on it's own terms as well. Old, ineffecient, and silly customs and systems can be disposed of in favor of functional governance. Assimilation by Orlais is not a desirable way to move Ferelden forward.

[Addai]

kylecouch wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think KoP brought up many great points as to the advantages of Orlais vis a vis Ferelden in any question of assimilation and unity, and of the all-but-inevitable assimilation of Ferelden into the Orlesian culture.


I can only wonder how he can hope to continue and henceforth argue why this is a bad thing. :wink:

lol indeed...it does seem kind of foolhardy to defend such an bass ackwards country. Although to be fair...it is bad to Ferelden because despite such a crappy system...it's a system they personaly enjoy. Probably because lowly nobles have their King bow to them and beg them for support and they wouldn't feel nearly as important if they had to bend knee to an unquestionable Empress...no matter how effective she may be.

(husband)

It only takes a few words to justify Ferelden's independence....


Chevaliers raping anybody and anything that catches their eye.

[Giggles_Manically]

I thought you were going to say:

Poncy Orlesian nobles in Silk. mincing about.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I thought you were going to say:
Poncy Orlesian nobles in Silk. mincing about.

Which is why the run around raping and abusing peasants. To  compensate for their overall lack of manlieness.

[TJPags]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think KoP brought up many great points as to the advantages of Orlais vis a vis Ferelden in any question of assimilation and unity, and of the all-but-inevitable assimilation of Ferelden into the Orlesian culture.


I can only wonder how he can hope to continue and henceforth argue why this is a bad thing. :wink:

This.^^

I read KoP's post, and it's extremely well written.  He makes some very good points.

But honestly, if the raping of commoners was taken away, I can't see this as anything but a good thing for Ferelden.  More commerce, better infrastructure, more security.

Ferelden is a backwards country.  Empires expand for reasons - they want something, usually some kind of resource.  Now, I don't know what Ferelden has, exactly, maybe it's land is very fertile, maybe it has better access to the ocean, maybe more trees, maybe gold, or stone, etc.  Who knows what it is.  Clearly, however, IMO anyway, Ferelden is not exploiting it. 

As for their traditions, their culture, I'm a little surprised that people who often seem to put down those traditions  - the independence of the Banns, the Therin bloodline, etc - call them important things.  Maybe they are to Fereldens, but none of us are.  We should be looking at this objectively.

And objectively, an alliance with Orlais, even if it means the loss of those traditions, looks like a very good thing to me.

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think that line was more there to help define Loghain as a character and not really Maric, who systematically does the opposite.

You just can't give Maric anything can you?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I am looking at it objectively. Objectively, you have the opportunity to put more progressive leadership in charge of Ferelden at the end of the game, though problems with succession are on the horizon, no matter who wins.



the rape and abuse of peasants, nor the heavily centralized absolutist power of the monarchy are not things you can remove: these are pretty basic values of the Orlesians. That the right of anyone with a higher rank to basically do what they please. And even though it is a wealthy, powerful nation at this point in history, everything I see in game suggests it is also a very decadent and frivilous culture with far less personal liberty or dignity for people not born upper class. I also got this impression from The Calling, when people like Duncan had flashbacks of their life in Orlais.



Ferelden is still a young, raw nation that has plenty of potential and adaptability for advancement. Anora's epilogue slides, if she is either solo queen or rules with a human noble, show the possibility of great cultural and social advancement on the horizon.



The Therin bloodline reverence is one of those older institutions that is going to die away, regardless, because even if Alistair lives and becomes king, the line inevitably will die with him. The Bannorn certainly needs to be dealt with, and a better system for the Landsmeet needs to come into place.



But beyond that, the other cultural and social values of Fereldens are fine as they remain, and could potentially be major boons to their development in the future. I do not see orlesian occupation/assimilation as really bringing any signifigant advantages to the life of the average Ferelden, since the average orlesian does not recieve much benefit in their own homelands.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think KoP brought up many great points as to the advantages of Orlais vis a vis Ferelden in any question of assimilation and unity, and of the all-but-inevitable assimilation of Ferelden into the Orlesian culture.


I can only wonder how he can hope to continue and henceforth argue why this is a bad thing. :wink:

This.^^

I read KoP's post, and it's extremely well written.  He makes some very good points.

But honestly, if the raping of commoners was taken away, I can't see this as anything but a good thing for Ferelden.  More commerce, better infrastructure, more security.

Ferelden is a backwards country.  Empires expand for reasons - they want something, usually some kind of resource.  Now, I don't know what Ferelden has, exactly, maybe it's land is very fertile, maybe it has better access to the ocean, maybe more trees, maybe gold, or stone, etc.  Who knows what it is.  Clearly, however, IMO anyway, Ferelden is not exploiting it. 

As for their traditions, their culture, I'm a little surprised that people who often seem to put down those traditions  - the independence of the Banns, the Therin bloodline, etc - call them important things.  Maybe they are to Fereldens, but none of us are.  We should be looking at this objectively.

And objectively, an alliance with Orlais, even if it means the loss of those traditions, looks like a very good thing to me.

(husband)


1)  ... the drive for independence, national indentity, and tradition is much more powerful then what Americans and other westerners might guess.    Back when I was a kid in the late seventies, early eightees I asked the same question to my European born and raised father.    Back before the European Union was really much of anything, I asked him

"Why don't those counteries just all band together and just be one big powerful nation like the US or the Soviety Union?

"Because they don't want to.    They want to be their own thing"   

And by and large he has been right.   I treally takes a lot to get to have different ethnic groups want to join together.   It more exception to the rule when it actually does happen.  




2) From a Ferelden stand point the objections could be a simple as not wanting their language suppressed or not wanting to have to learn "the language of the empire".

Besides all the simple little things of national pride that people take seriously.    Then you get into more serious ones like the fact empires can easily rape their resources i.e. - You could easily have hordes of Orlesian lumber jacks come down and clear cut their forrests to build the next empirial project etc.




3) Increased taxes are another reason probably the biggest.   Big empires need big coffers.   Empires don't just fund advances like the ones found in the game Civilization.    They also end up buying vanity things for their monarchs, bridges to Nowhere etc.    It is easy to be skeptical that the taxes you are paying or will pay are not worth it.    Not to mention people get spoiled and will eventually take the bridges, roads and PAx Romana for granted.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I can only wonder how he can hope to continue and henceforth argue why this is a bad thing. :wink:

It is not a bad thing objectively. And in the larger scheme of things, it's not that relevent. But from a perspective of people who want Ferelden to be independent, then it's bad. From a perspective of people who think that Ferelden has other options and has some potential, it's bad. It's definitely subjective and if it did happen, I wouldn't cry a river over it. Like I said, I like Empires. I just don't like people who willingly assimilate when they don't have to. Some people have no choice, but imo, Ferelden does.

The only objective thing I can bring up is relative power vs absolute gains. I think it would be obvious that it's Orlais that is going to benefit more.

TJPags wrote...
And objectively, an alliance with Orlais, even
if it means the loss of those traditions, looks like a very good thing
to me.

That's why I point out to the crucial difference between absolute gains and relative power.
Ferelden will definitely gain something in absolute. The question is, how will its relative position be vis a vis Orlais?

That's the key, imo, to understanding international relations. If I make with you a deal that gives you a 25% extra growth, but what I am taking from you is larger and making me even more powerful, your relative position is diminishing.

Some countries have no choice and eventually bow down to international pressures (IMF). But I do think that Ferelden has other options available.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Sure, the country is backwards in many departments. So? Perhaps the Fereldens do not wish to be assimilated for the sake of advancement. Perhaps they wish to advance in their own sweet time, under their terms, without their culture, traditions, and values being annihilated completely in the process.

It can't afford to linger on.
That's the arguments I hear from my people back home. "Yea, we will develop. Someday....but on our own terms!" Yes, they better hurry if they don't want to become yesterday's news. 

I can see 3 possible fates for Ferelden (symplifying):
- Either it finally recieves proper leadership (which will probably not be a Therein, that line is better off ended) that will move the country forward.
- Assimilated or at least very influenced by its more powerful neighbor Orlais
- Regress into isolation and remain the backwater that they are.

Naturally, I believe the first outcome is the best. And I believe it's possible.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It can't afford to linger on.
That's the arguments I hear from my people back home. "Yea, we will develop. Someday....but on our own terms!" Yes, they better hurry if they don't want to become yesterday's news. 

I can see 3 possible fates for Ferelden (symplifying):
- Either it finally recieves proper leadership (which will probably not be a Therein, that line is better off ended) that will move the country forward.
- Assimilated or at least very influenced by its more powerful neighbor Orlais
- Regress into isolation and remain the backwater that they are.

Naturally, I believe the first outcome is the best. And I believe it's possible.

1 or three work for me.  If they wish to remain backwards borderline barbarians, then let them, it is what they deserve if that's their choice. However, isolationism can't last forever, and eventually leads to option number 2: assimilation but someone bigger and badder.

My point though, was not what was best for Ferelden, but reasons why Fereldens would not wish to be assimilated by Orlais. Though living like petty barbarians might not be a desirable state for us, for others, borderline barbarism is exactly what they want. Whether or not this is good for them was not my issue.

Option 1 is obviously the best chance, and certainly feasible, as Ferelden does have the potential, given the proper leadership and direction. And the Therin line will not be an issue in the future, since one way or another, it's dying completely this generation.

[TJPags]

@Skadi and Addai's husband -

yes, you both make strong points, particularly the ones about national identity.  That's strong to a lot of people.

But there are certainly taxes now in Ferelden  - we don't see it in game, but it has to be there in some form.  And not every ruler is frivolous with spending.  Sure, a lot are, but not all.

For common people, what they want is food on the table, a roof over their head, and the knowledge that they won't lose those things.   If that roof gets bigger, if the food gets a little better, to them, that's a good thing.  And if you consider the economic benefits of being part of an empire can grant, that's good. 

Example - you raise sheep for their wool.  You sell it to the weaver in town, who makes cloaks, and sells them in the next town over.  Sure, you make a little money.  But now sell those cloaks instead to the merchant who will carry them to the Andefels on those roads empires build.  The Anderfels is cold, and doesn't have as many sheep.  They pay more.  Eventually, you make more.

You have a small boat, and you fish a few hundred feet off the coast.  You catch your meals, you sell a few extra fish to other people in the village.  Now you have access to better wood, or more wood.  You build a bigger boat.  You now fish a few miles off the coast.  You catch 5 times as many fish.  You sell a lot more.  You make more money.  Your children have better clothes, better food, they build more boats, etc.

Empires are not always bad, is what I'm saying.  And the little people don't play the Game of Thrones ™, or Daes Daemar™. 

Two other points - Skadi, Ferelden is 400 some years old.  That may be young for nations in Europe, but I'm from the USA - that's not a young country, to me. 

Addai's husband - sure, language is nice.  But offer someone more money, and I bet they'll be willing to learn a new language.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]TJPags wrote...


For common people, what they want is food on the table, a roof over their head, and the knowledge that they won't lose those things.   If that roof gets bigger, if the food gets a little better, to them, that's a good thing.  And if you consider the economic benefits of being part of an empire can grant, that's good.  [/quote]

Except they do lose those things under Orlesian rule. In Ferelden, you have freeholders: commoners who own their own land and wealth. Orlais does not, and made it a special point to strip land and property rights from the freeholders. Orlesian culture and law does not recognize property rights of mere peasants. Their roofs would more likely become hovels, their status reduced to serfs or tenant farmers, if lucky. And it is highly unlikely that food on their tables would increase, as a result.



[/i]Two other points - Skadi, Ferelden is 400 some years old.  That may be young for nations in Europe, but I'm from the USA - that's not a young country, to me.  [/quote]

I'm from the US as well. By the standards of the rest of the world, 400 years is not that old. In fact, the house I live in is older than that. Many countries were that old before they rose to a position of prominence and power.

[KnightofPhoenix]

400 is a baby nation for us.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Except they do lose those things under Orlesian rule. In Ferelden, you have freeholders: commoners who own their own land and wealth. Orlais does not, and made it a special point to strip land and property rights from the freeholders. Orlesian culture and law does not recognize property rights of mere peasants. Their roofs would more likely become hovels, their status reduced to serfs or tenant farmers, if lucky. And it is highly unlikely that food on their tables would increase, as a result.

Freeholders are not necessarily commoners. (Where did I read that again?)

And I thought it was established that Celene is not dumb. If she wants to expand her empire she'll make sure the new land is not going back into rebellion. She planned to get her hands on Ferelden using politics rather than invading.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 janvier 2011 - 09:43 .

[TJPags]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

TJPags wrote...


For common people, what they want is food on the table, a roof over their head, and the knowledge that they won't lose those things.   If that roof gets bigger, if the food gets a little better, to them, that's a good thing.  And if you consider the economic benefits of being part of an empire can grant, that's good. 

Except they do lose those things under Orlesian rule. In Ferelden, you have freeholders: commoners who own their own land and wealth. Orlais does not, and made it a special point to strip land and property rights from the freeholders. Orlesian culture and law does not recognize property rights of mere peasants. Their roofs would more likely become hovels, their status reduced to serfs or tenant farmers, if lucky. And it is highly unlikely that food on their tables would increase, as a result.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Two other points - Skadi, Ferelden is 400 some years old.  That may be young for nations in Europe, but I'm from the USA - that's not a young country, to me. 

I'm from the US as well. By the standards of the rest of the world, 400 years is not that old. In fact, the house I live in is older than that. Many countries were that old before they rose to a position of prominence and power.

I'm not sure I knew that about the land rights.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I didn't.  That may revise my thinking.

And yes, 400 is not old for Europe - still, it's old to me.    (yes, I'm being Amero-centric now )

Modifié par TJPags, 01 janvier 2011 - 08:46 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@TJPags: In The Stolen Throne, as well as some in game information, we learn that Fereldens have more property rights. And when the Orlesians came, they found such an idea offensive, and directly targeted freeholders with impossible taxes to drive off their lands, which in turn were given to the local lord. In fact, this is part of Loghain's own story: his father resisted the taxes and attempts by orlesians to seize his land, and they retaliated by raping and murdering Loggy's mother in front of him, then taking the land anyway. In Orlais, there are no freeholders, only lords and wealthy aristocrats entitled to land and property ownership.



Also, there is more social mobility in Ferelden as a result. Orlais might be wealthy, but access and opportunity to take part in it is far more limited than in Ferelden. And snce I personally believe that opportunity for advancement and social/economic mobility are important factors in a viable culture, it is one of my reasons for believing ferelden has the potential and capability to advance.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

@Skadi and Addai's husband -

yes, you both make strong points, particularly the ones about national identity.  That's strong to a lot of people.

But there are certainly taxes now in Ferelden  - we don't see it in game, but it has to be there in some form.  And not every ruler is frivolous with spending.  Sure, a lot are, but not all.

For common people, what they want is food on the table, a roof over their head, and the knowledge that they won't lose those things.   If that roof gets bigger, if the food gets a little better, to them, that's a good thing.  And if you consider the economic benefits of being part of an empire can grant, that's good. 

Example - you raise sheep for their wool.  You sell it to the weaver in town, who makes cloaks, and sells them in the next town over.  Sure, you make a little money.  But now sell those cloaks instead to the merchant who will carry them to the Andefels on those roads empires build.  The Anderfels is cold, and doesn't have as many sheep.  They pay more.  Eventually, you make more.

You have a small boat, and you fish a few hundred feet off the coast.  You catch your meals, you sell a few extra fish to other people in the village.  Now you have access to better wood, or more wood.  You build a bigger boat.  You now fish a few miles off the coast.  You catch 5 times as many fish.  You sell a lot more.  You make more money.  Your children have better clothes, better food, they build more boats, etc.

Empires are not always bad, is what I'm saying.  And the little people don't play the Game of Thrones ™, or Daes Daemar™. 

Two other points - Skadi, Ferelden is 400 some years old.  That may be young for nations in Europe, but I'm from the USA - that's not a young country, to me. 

Addai's husband - sure, language is nice.  But offer someone more money, and I bet they'll be willing to learn a new language.

(husband)


Well there are othere considerations.


(FALLOUT, NEW VEGAS SPOILER AHEAD!!)



1) The tax situation I would compare to what happens in New Vegas if you side with the NCR.    You pay signiicantly more taxes.   Most shop keepers etc, however get more increased trade, so they come out a bit ahead.    Somepeople, like retired people loose out big time.    Because they are not buying or selling they are just living on their fixed income,    They are actually forced out of their native land by the taxes.







2) You also would be subject to more goverment regulation.    And after studying certain aspects of US history, like what happened during the New Deal.   I'm a bit skeptical how positive that would be.    Because for every regulation that is good for the overall good.   i.e. - lets not dump waste in the rivers that people drink out of, make beer from etc.    You actually find many that negatively impact growth and business.     (Lawmakers often don't really understand aspects of business and can just arbitrarily pass laws that they think will help. 

So I would think Ferelden being absorbed by Orlai could easily result in a situation that happened to the (US) Colonies under British rule.   Where...

A) They had taxation without representation.   (nobody in Parliament came from the Colonies. They had no say when it came to taxes and other policies).

All the tariffs, taxes, and Protectionism greatly ate into their profits (Colonists could only buy and sell to British merchants.   They paid low prices for their goods and had to buy British products like tea at premium prices resulting in protests like the Boston Tea PArty.

When all was said and done it eventually became hardly worth it to be a colonist in North America.    (Before this happened,   it was worth it, but people had to completely leave behind everrthing they had in Europe and start over and work their ass off.   If they were willing to do this though they could make a great living.   Essentially become a middle class farmer/ merchant equivalent of a Lord just through working the Laizze Faire enviroment and taking advantage of land that is largely a blank slate.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 janvier 2011 - 09:27 .

[TheRevanchist]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

@Skadi and Addai's husband -

yes, you both make strong points, particularly the ones about national identity.  That's strong to a lot of people.

But there are certainly taxes now in Ferelden  - we don't see it in game, but it has to be there in some form.  And not every ruler is frivolous with spending.  Sure, a lot are, but not all.

For common people, what they want is food on the table, a roof over their head, and the knowledge that they won't lose those things.   If that roof gets bigger, if the food gets a little better, to them, that's a good thing.  And if you consider the economic benefits of being part of an empire can grant, that's good. 

Example - you raise sheep for their wool.  You sell it to the weaver in town, who makes cloaks, and sells them in the next town over.  Sure, you make a little money.  But now sell those cloaks instead to the merchant who will carry them to the Andefels on those roads empires build.  The Anderfels is cold, and doesn't have as many sheep.  They pay more.  Eventually, you make more.

You have a small boat, and you fish a few hundred feet off the coast.  You catch your meals, you sell a few extra fish to other people in the village.  Now you have access to better wood, or more wood.  You build a bigger boat.  You now fish a few miles off the coast.  You catch 5 times as many fish.  You sell a lot more.  You make more money.  Your children have better clothes, better food, they build more boats, etc.

Empires are not always bad, is what I'm saying.  And the little people don't play the Game of Thrones ™, or Daes Daemar™. 

Two other points - Skadi, Ferelden is 400 some years old.  That may be young for nations in Europe, but I'm from the USA - that's not a young country, to me. 

Addai's husband - sure, language is nice.  But offer someone more money, and I bet they'll be willing to learn a new language.

(husband)


Well there are othere considerations.


(FALLOUT, NEW VEGAS SPOILER AHEAD!!)



1) The tax situation I would compare to what happens in New Vegas if you side with the NCR.    You pay signiicantly more taxes.   Most shop keepers etc, however get more increased trade, so they come out a bit ahead.    Somepeople, like retired people loose out big time.    Because they are not buying or selling they are just living on their fixed income,    They are actually forced out of their native land by the taxes.







2) You also would be subject to more goverment regulation.    And after studying certain aspects of US history, like what happened during the New Deal.   I'm a bit skeptical how positive that would be.    Because for every regulation that is good for the overall good.   i.e. - lets not dump waste in the rivers that people drink out of, make beer from etc.    You actually find many that negatively impact growth and business.     (Lawmakers often don't really understand aspects of business and can just arbitrarily pass laws that they think will help. 

So I would think Ferelden being absorbed by Orlai could easily result in a situation that happened to the (US) Colonies under British rule.   Where...

A) They had taxation without representation.   (nobody in Parliament came from the Colonies. They had no say when it came to taxes and other policies).

All the tariffs, taxes, and Protectionism greatly ate into their profits (Colonists could only buy and sell to British merchants.   They paid low prices for their goods and had to buy British products like tea at premium prices resulting in protests like the Boston Tea PArty.

When all was said and done it eventually became hardly worth it to be a colonist in North America.    (Before this happened,   it was worth it, but people had to completely leave behind everrthing they had in Europe and start over and work their ass off.   If they were willing to do this though they could make a great living.   Essentially become a middle class farmer/ merchant equivalent of a Lord just through working the Laizze Faire enviroment and taking advantage of land that is largely a blank slate.

Indeed all very good points to consider in this situation.

[blothulfur]

Is it weird that I see Orlais as being the backward nation that may be about to slide into regression, She has too many large undefendable borders, she is relying too much on her knighthood as a military superweapon when loghain showed what strategy and tactics can achieved when weilded by "lesser" men, her renaissance sounds a lot like the stewart rule in britain where the king beggared his nation funding pointless wars and buying every piece of art from across the known world and the dominance of it's chantry may be challenged by the fact that the ashes of andraste lie in ferelden where she was born.

Ferelden meanwhile has easily defended borders, a trading monopoly with the finest craftsmen and only lyrium producers in thedas, has a reborn sense of her place in the world thanks to being the only country to ever defeat a blight on her own and at least in my playthrough has a competent queen in anora legitimised by alistairs bloodline and soon to rule solely when the king must go to his calling.

Oh and even if alistair can't put an heir on the throne due to his diminished child bearing capability, there should be plenty of eager young blonde lads who'll do the job (and suffer horrible accidents afterwards), both my human and dwarven nobles plan to strengthen ferelden considerably before they are called to orzammar though for very different reasons.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I wouldn't say orlais was Backwards for those reasons, but more in the early evening years of its power and influence. While we hear Celene is spondoring a rennisance in the arts, Orlesian society tends to be rather decadent and corrupt, which usually follows the decline of empires. I think orlais will be around for years to come, but I think it's power and influence could be on a slow wane.



Something that ferelden really needs to take advantage of, even if the fruits might take a few generations to bear.