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[KnightofPhoenix]

Nevarra is the new kid in the block. It's almost like the Prussia of Thedas and if it manages to unite with the Free Marches (who I think are ethnically the same people), it will become the Germany of Thedas. Aka its powerhouse.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 janvier 2011 - 03:44 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

We'll see how that gets expanded upon in DA2. But you are right about the comparison, and if Nevarra does unite the Free Marches under a single banner, Orlais might start learning the fine art of white hanky waving. I guess their skill with silk will come in handy after all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I had hoped that DA2 will be about us being the Bismarck of Thedas, but sadly that's not likely. Bioware can't seem to grasp politics that well to make such a game.

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevarra is the new kid in the block. It's almost like the Prussia of Thedas and if it manages to unite with the Free Marches (who I think are ethnically the same people), it will become the Germany of Thedas. Aka its powerhouse.

Care to support your characterization with evidence?  Do we actually have any reason to make such a comparison beyond idle fancy?  I'm genuinely curious why you think so.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevarra is the new kid in the block. It's almost like the Prussia of Thedas and if it manages to unite with the Free Marches (who I think are ethnically the same people), it will become the Germany of Thedas. Aka its powerhouse.

Who knows...since Hawke is "THE most important person in the entire history of Thedas and all history yet to be made ever till the end of time." They might very well cause the Free Marches to become united forever, and THEY might annex Nevarra instead of the other way around. Like Bioware has said, apparently by the end the whole world is gearing up for war. and the woman interogateing Varric, Cassandra,  is part of the Pentaghast family...the royal family of Nevarra.

Modifié par kylecouch, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:11 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I had hoped that DA2 will be about us being the Bismarck of Thedas, but sadly that's not likely. Bioware can't seem to grasp politics that well to make such a game.

Now that would be epic. Especially if we also got to wear those nifty pointy helmets. 

But it looks more like you might end up having some big impact on the qunari or something, or maybe a one-or-the-other choice type scenario, because those seem to be the most popular, for some reason.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevarra is the new kid in the block. It's almost like the Prussia of Thedas and if it manages to unite with the Free Marches (who I think are ethnically the same people), it will become the Germany of Thedas. Aka its powerhouse.

Care to support your characterization with evidence?  Do we actually have any reason to make such a comparison beyond idle fancy?  I'm genuinely curious why you think so.

Very much like Germany before unification, The Free Marches (which included Nevarra) were a collection of disunited polities that were ethnically similar (major difference is that the Free Marches are city-states). Very much like the rise of Prussia, Nevarra rose up and surpassed its peers (there is no polity similar to the Austrian Empire).

The rise of Prussia inevitably made it clash with France, which is mirrored in the Nevarra / Orlais rivalry. Nevarra's occupation of " Blasted Hills", which apparently the population doesn't like, is somewhat similar to Prussian's occupation of France's Alsace Lorraine (1870-71) that was equally unpopular. And it seems that Nevarra is Orlais' main rival.

Naturally, there are not equivalent, it would be foolish to try and draw perfect comparisions between Thedas and Europe. However the info we have, to me, show some similarity. There is a clear shift in the balance of power and similar trends repeated themselves in Europe and elsewhere. This shift, I see as similar to the rise pf Prussia and the possible unification of the Free Marches into one State.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

kylecouch wrote...

 They might very well cause the Free Marches to become united forever, and THEY might annex Nevarra instead of the other way around.

I doubt it, I don't think they are strong enough. Most unifications generally require a hegemon and I think Nevarra fullfills that role better than a recent unification of the Free Marches.

But who knows.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:26 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Very much like Germany before unification, The Free Marches (which included Nevarra) were a collection of disunited polities that were ethnically similar (major difference is that the Free Marches are city-states). Very much like the rise of Prussia, Nevarra rose up and surpassed its peers (there is no polity similar to the Austrian Empire).

The rise of Prussia inevitably made it clash with France, which is mirrored in the Nevarra / Orlais rivalry. Nevarra's occupation of " Blasted Hills", which apparently the population doesn't like, is somewhat similar to Prussian's occupation of France's Alsace Lorraine (1870-71) that was equally unpopular. And it seems that Nevarra is Orlais' main rival.

Naturally, there are not equivalent, it would be foolish to try and draw perfect comparisions between Thedas and Europe. However the info we have, to me, show some similarity. There is a clear shift in the balance of power and similar trends repeated themselves in Europe and elsewhere. This shift, I see as similar to the rise pf Prussia and the possible unification of the Free Marches into one State.

Interesting.  Thank you.  I did not know much about Nevarra beyond the fact that they were at war with Orlais.  Mind telling me where you gleaned this information?

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
Interesting.  Thank you.  I did not know much about Nevarra beyond the fact that they were at war with Orlais.  Mind telling me where you gleaned this information?

The DA Wiki. It has info that Gaider revealed a long time ago about the universe and it's not in the game itself.
It could be changed however. So who knows.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

KoP - just wanted to say I so miss your posts. Clear, meaningful, and relevant. I think I'll hang out on the DAO DAA forums for awhile again.

Really good stuff from you.

Thanks!
Let's hope DA2 has stuff to talk about, we kind of exhausted what there is to talk about in DA:O. 

[LobselVith8]

kylecouch wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevarra is the new kid in the block. It's almost like the Prussia of Thedas and if it manages to unite with the Free Marches (who I think are ethnically the same people), it will become the Germany of Thedas. Aka its powerhouse.

Who knows...since Hawke is "THE most important person in the entire history of Thedas and all history yet to be made ever till the end of time." They might very well cause the Free Marches to become united forever, and THEY might annex Nevarra instead of the other way around. Like Bioware has said, apparently by the end the whole world is gearing up for war. and the woman interogateing Varric, Cassandra,  is part of the Pentaghast family...the royal family of Nevarra.

Anything's possible. If Hawke is as important as the devs are making him out to be, then he could be the catalyst of change for the Free Marches, shifting the balance of power. I could see the possibility of an alliance between the two, or even merging since, as you said, he's supposed to be the most important person in Thedas (and what better say to showcase that than to tip the scales of power in his favor). The Free Marches and Nevarra do neighbor each other, and Nevarra has been dealing with its own issues with the Orlesian Empire, so an alliance could be of some benefit to them, especially if there's some fallout between Nevarra and Orlais because of the Circles of Magi who are meeting in Cumberland (in addition to the possibility of the Magi Warden openly asking the ruler of Ferelden for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence). It really depends on how much room we're allowed to have as Hawke, and whether we'll have any choice in making alliances or going to war with neighboring city-states and nations.

Raelis25 wrote...

I'm sure this has already been discussed many times in other threads, but I couldn't find any such discussions, and I just don't have the time or patience to go through all Loghain threads on this forums.

I have a bit of a moral dilemma here and I'd like other players' input. I have never spared Loghain before but I want to. I want to get to know him as a character, and I don't believe he's an irredeemable monster, even though his crimes are heinous. And what's most important, up to this point I've been playing a character who is merciful and would give a chance for redemption to most of the criminals/shady guys he encountered. My HN spared Sten despite the fact that Sten had slaughtered an entire family, including children (so HN would have more reasons than anyone else to want Sten to rot in that cage - he'd draw parallels with his own family being slaughtered). He spared Zevran, the assasin who tried to kill him. He spared Jowan and gave him a chance to make up for all the wrongs he had done by insisting Jowan be sent into the Fade to save Connor. He spared the Blood Magein the Tower. It makes sense for him to give a similar chance to Loghain.

Regardless of the Origin, I can see the Warden giving Loghain the same chance that Sten, Zevran, Jowan, and even Shale were given - to prove themselves and aid against the Blight. I think it might be more of an issue for a CE Warden, since there's no evidence that Loghain had anything to do with Howe attacking the Couslands (and even Gaider admitted as much).

Raelis25 wrote...

But at the same time can't help but feel it's be a case of massive hypocricy on my N's part to leave Loghain alive and deny his best friend Alistair a chance to get revenge. After all, my HN had zero qualms about executing Howe. And he wouldbe pissed as hell if someone suggested to him that Howe should live. Satisfying his own thrist for revenge and denying Alistair to satisfy his own - isn't it just unbelievably hypocritical?

There have been some great posts touching on this already, but it seems like the game puts the Warden into the position of being the Loghain to Alistair's Maric, giving you the opportunity to shape him to become the leader that Ferelden needs. How you decide to do that is ultimately up to you. Alistair has every right to hate Loghain, and his outburst at the Landsmeet is natural after having lost Duncan and the other Grey Wardens at Ostagar, but you're a Grey Warden tasked with stopping the Blight no matter the cost - even if that means using blood magic or making decisions that determine the course of an entire civilization (like Orzammar). A hardened Alistair will accept both his marriage to Anora and his responsibilities as King, and Loghain will live.

Raelis25 wrote...

But then again, killing Loghain after sparing the likes of Sten and Jowan would be just as hypocritical, wouldn't it?

So, all those who play as a goody-two-shoes HN, what do you do in this situation and how do you justify the chboices your character makes? Maybe reading about your experiences will help me make a decision. Seriosuly, I've been agonizing about tbis forever!

Game mechanics don't really change anything (any more than the dialogue of Alistair and Anora change when they give the exact, same battle speech) but lore-wise, it'd be valuable to have a seasoned general at your side to help against the darkspawn armies. No matter how good of a tactician the Warden is, it doesn't hurt to have an additional voice to help command the legions of dwarves, elves, mages, and humans who are marching against the greatest threat that Ferelden has ever faced. Even though I think Alistair's rage is completely justified, I can see sparing Loghain because he is a general and commands the respect of his troops. If Loghain has sided with the Warden, then none of the troops who were under his command are going to defect. He has years of experience and can be of great assistance in the march against the darkspawn.

[masseffectexpert94]

Logain is completly to blame but you must understand that king calin was going to leave anora for the orlesian empress and logain's hatred for the orlesian's is absolote. The king was to focused on glory and logain was right to pull out but his exileing the gray is a crime that would doom ferelden had alistar riordan and the warden had failed so his death is deserved but it does make way for a stronger king.

[Mike3207]

The Human Noble path is the one that has the strongest logic to spare Loghain-especially if you plan on marrying Queen Anora. It's really a bad idea to consider executing your prospective father in law-and its to Anora's credit she will go through the marriage with Alistair in that circumstance given how strongly he pushed for the execution(as long as he doesn't kill Loghain himself).

The Human Noble path is also the one where it makes a great deal of sense to execute Alistair-especially since the Theirin line will always be a threat to take the throne. This assumes you plan to marry Anora and start your own royal line on this path. This also extends to Eamon and Redcliffe-I've decided it's best to let the undead destroy Redcliffe.It's really the only way to neutralize Eamon on this path.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 26 août 2011 - 02:08 .

[Jedimaster88]

Mike Smith wrote...

The Human Noble path is the one that has the strongest logic to spare Loghain-especially if you plan on marrying Queen Anora. It's really a bad idea to consider executing your prospective father in law-and its to Anora's credit she will go through the marriage with Alistair in that circumstance given how strongly he pushed for the execution(as long as he doesn't kill Loghain himself).

The Human Noble path is also the one where it makes a great deal of sense to execute Alistair-especially since the Theirin line will always be a threat to take the throne. This assumes you plan to marry Anora and start your own royal line on this path. This also extends to Eamon and Redcliffe-I've decided it's best to let the undead destroy Redcliffe.It's really the only way to neutralize Eamon on this path.

"Politics. Never did anyone any good"

You really want to let all those people there to die because of one man? Doesnt Redcliffe have some tactical meaning? Its right next to the border of Orlais is it not? Correct me if Im wrong because its been some time since I last played. Anyways I understand Redcliffe has so much importance that its a very bad idea to let it get destroyed.

Basically the person who marries anora, sacrifises a friend to get power, assuming you´re friendly with Alistair and you dont choose differently. Thats pretty cold. My warden would never sell his friends and allies just to get power. He doesnt care about having power and is definetely no interested in anora because she is pretty much nothing like Morrigan:).

As for Loghain. Well people have already made so many good points for both sparing and executing that I dont feel I can add anything new. Its how your warden sees things. My warden despises Loghain for what he did after ostagar and even before (referring to Eamon poisoning). He loses his faith in Loghains ablities and he just doesnt trust him after everything so he executes him. Not the perfect choise but because the game offers this or becoming a grey warden, I choose this. Maybe not the most logical thing to do but I dont care because the warden wins even without loghain.

[Mike3207]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

The Human Noble path is the one that has the strongest logic to spare Loghain-especially if you plan on marrying Queen Anora. It's really a bad idea to consider executing your prospective father in law-and its to Anora's credit she will go through the marriage with Alistair in that circumstance given how strongly he pushed for the execution(as long as he doesn't kill Loghain himself).

The Human Noble path is also the one where it makes a great deal of sense to execute Alistair-especially since the Theirin line will always be a threat to take the throne. This assumes you plan to marry Anora and start your own royal line on this path. This also extends to Eamon and Redcliffe-I've decided it's best to let the undead destroy Redcliffe.It's really the only way to neutralize Eamon on this path.

"Politics. Never did anyone any good"

You really want to let all those people there to die because of one man? Doesnt Redcliffe have some tactical meaning? Its right next to the border of Orlais is it not? Correct me if Im wrong because its been some time since I last played. Anyways I understand Redcliffe has so much importance that its a very bad idea to let it get destroyed.

Basically the person who marries anora, sacrifises a friend to get power, assuming you´re friendly with Alistair and you dont choose differently. Thats pretty cold. My warden would never sell his friends and allies just to get power. He doesnt care about having power and is definetely no interested in anora because she is pretty much nothing like Morrigan:).

As for Loghain. Well people have already made so many good points for both sparing and executing that I dont feel I can add anything new. Its how your warden sees things. My warden despises Loghain for what he did after ostagar and even before (referring to Eamon poisoning). He loses his faith in Loghains ablities and he just doesnt trust him after everything so he executes him. Not the perfect choise but because the game offers this or becoming a grey warden, I choose this. Maybe not the most logical thing to do but I dont care because the warden wins even without loghain.

Redcliffe doesn't actually get destroyed, but most of the people in it do die. You do get a letter in Act 2 of DA2 saying that Redcliffe is back to normal. I did do it once for my canon playthrough, but I don't know if I could do it again. It's a hard thing seeing the former citizens as zombies, no matter how much I hate Eamon.

About sacrificing a friend-well I did tell Alistair I was going to support Anora for the throne. If he wants to claim the throne knowing that, then he should be prepared to deal with the consequences of his actions. My Warden didn't care about power either, he is more about duty. He felt it was his duty to marry Anora to do what is best for Ferelden.

Regaring an invasion of Orlais-there's no mention about a invasion of Orlais under Anora and M Cousland. It could mean there won't be an invasion or that we don't hear about it-either one.

Modifié par Mike Smith, 27 août 2011 - 02:04 .

[Jedimaster88]

Mike Smith wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Mike Smith wrote...

The Human Noble path is the one that has the strongest logic to spare Loghain-especially if you plan on marrying Queen Anora. It's really a bad idea to consider executing your prospective father in law-and its to Anora's credit she will go through the marriage with Alistair in that circumstance given how strongly he pushed for the execution(as long as he doesn't kill Loghain himself).

The Human Noble path is also the one where it makes a great deal of sense to execute Alistair-especially since the Theirin line will always be a threat to take the throne. This assumes you plan to marry Anora and start your own royal line on this path. This also extends to Eamon and Redcliffe-I've decided it's best to let the undead destroy Redcliffe.It's really the only way to neutralize Eamon on this path.

"Politics. Never did anyone any good"

You really want to let all those people there to die because of one man? Doesnt Redcliffe have some tactical meaning? Its right next to the border of Orlais is it not? Correct me if Im wrong because its been some time since I last played. Anyways I understand Redcliffe has so much importance that its a very bad idea to let it get destroyed.

Basically the person who marries anora, sacrifises a friend to get power, assuming you´re friendly with Alistair and you dont choose differently. Thats pretty cold. My warden would never sell his friends and allies just to get power. He doesnt care about having power and is definetely no interested in anora because she is pretty much nothing like Morrigan:).

As for Loghain. Well people have already made so many good points for both sparing and executing that I dont feel I can add anything new. Its how your warden sees things. My warden despises Loghain for what he did after ostagar and even before (referring to Eamon poisoning). He loses his faith in Loghains ablities and he just doesnt trust him after everything so he executes him. Not the perfect choise but because the game offers this or becoming a grey warden, I choose this. Maybe not the most logical thing to do but I dont care because the warden wins even without loghain.

Redcliffe doesn't actually get destroyed, but most of the people in it do die. You do get a letter in Act 2 of DA2 saying that Redcliffe is back to normal. I did do it once for my canon playthrough, but I don't know if I could do it again. It's a hard thing seeing the former citizens as zombies, no matter how much I hate Eamon.

About sacrificing a friend-well I did tell Alistair I was going to support Anora for the throne. If he wants to claim the throne knowing that, then he should be prepared to deal with the consequences of his actions. My Warden didn't care about power either, he is more about duty. He felt it was his duty to marry Anora to do what is best for Ferelden.

Regaring an invasion of Orlais-there's no mention about a invasion of Orlais under Anora and M Cousland. It could mean there won't be an invasion or that we don't hear about it-either one.

Just because we dont hear anything about that uncertain invasion, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. My guess is that those "some orlesians" dont care who is on the throne. If they want to try retake Ferelden, they will propably do so no matter who rules it. Then again Celene doesnt seem to be agreeing with those "some" so we will just have to see what happens.

Because we hear about the invasion when Alistair is king, doesnt mean Alistair messed up or something although the fact of him disagreeing with the chantry might have some part. Not that it bothers me much. I like what Alistair does as king. Change is what is needed in many ways so what Alistair and Anora accomplish together will just bring that. I say go for it.

Alistair seems to be more travelling kind of person than Anora so its possible that is the reason we hear about the invasion. Why its not mentioned with M Cousland? Well to that I cant answer. Maybe he just has other important business or something.