267 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

I would rather not spare Loghain...but sadly that acursed Awakenings ret-con forces my hand. 
---------------

Wait, wait, what ret-con are we talking about here?


Secondly...needing a General? again he is not
needed...thats what the HNW is there for...to be the General that
Ferelden needs...someone willing to act upon threats that are real..
--------------------

The Orlesian threat is VERY real. 4 Legions amassing at the borders? Did you really think Celene sent those out of the goodness of her heart and that they would leave the moment the Blight was defeated? I think not.

---------------------
The
point I tried to make with this rant is this...I don't feel spareing
Loghain is worth the risk (without metagame knowledge) he could simply
kill you while your sleeping later out of spite...use his political ties
to undermine your athority from behind the scenes etc...theres too many
possible variables to simply assume he is only an asset and no risk to
you what so ever once he knows he isn't dieing. Not to mention my HN
thinks his honor is stained beyond redemption, he/she thinks poison and
slavery are unforgiveable crimes. While they HN's tend to be very kind
hearted and forgiveing...their mercy has limits in regards to things
like this.



Sorry for the long post...the subject of Loghain gets me riled up and I have strong opinions on him...

---------------

What would he stand to gain by killing his own Commander after becoming a Grey Warden himself and knowing the Blight to be real? Loghain can be stubborn as a mule, but he is not spiteful nor completely stupid. What political ties? He is a disgraced general, no longer a teyrn...who would support him in this after the Landsmeet? Poisoning/Sedating someone is unforgiveable? Might I assume that you always kill Zevran too then? 

Modifié par Persephone, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[TheRevanchist]

Sarah1281 wrote...

1. Because I want a full DA2 import...that includes DAO DAA GoA and WH...and thanks to that ret-con US makes no sence at all. and makes a full import impossible...I'll have to decide if I want a "default" DAO file or a "default" everything else otherwise. Just because nothing is mentioned in Awakening does not mean that import won't mean something in DA2 or beyond.

I really don't think much of anything from Awakening will carry over. There's not even a save game at the end with DA.

2. Because you are a Teyrn's son...I am pretty sure Bryce has taught his son's how to be lead men into battle and taught them war strategies...otherwise I doubt he would has trusted you with Highever castle as easily as he did (ignoreing plot nessesity)...with so little men in fact...he must trust your ability to command a great a deal...comeing from someone as experienced as him thats all I need to see.

Learning strategies is not the same as having any experience and why would him trusting you to run day-to-day operations in a castle where most of the men are gone mean he at all trusts your ability to lead men into battle? There wasn't supposed to be any fighting up in Highever. Loghain is a better general than you are by virtue of having experience and wiping the floor with the bannorn in the game. He has several personal problems that may lessen his value and trustworthiness like the ones you've mentioned but he knows what he's talking about in war...if he can find the right target.

1. Theres no save at the end of Awakening because whats the point? theres nothing more to save...the only thing left is killing the Mother and thats unavoidable...The game will simply assume that...the autosave covers everything thats needs to be covered...besides I'm pretty sure the fate of The Architect will be important later on down the road. For that choice alone do I consider DAA important.

2. I concede that he obviously know more then you...despite that fact your father says "Only a token force is remaining...and you must keep peace in the region...you know what they about mice when the cat is away...yes?" which to me says he trusts his son to lead troops if the time comes. But the fact that he DOES allow petty hatreds to cloud his judgements...IMO...makes him a bad General...not his abilitys at being one..which are good by any means. However I cannot trust a General that is ruled by emotions rather then logic and I feel his ability to command is hampered by these hatreds. Secondly we have no proof of him roflstompimg the Bannorn.

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
There only misplaced with metagameing knowledge...while I know perfectly well he isn't a souless monster that easts children in their sleep...I do find his actions unforgiveable. On top of that...while he was a good General in TST I don't really think he is in DAO...a good General prepares and acts against threats that are real...not makking paranoid judgements about hypothetical (not to mention dead wrong) enemies that MIGHT do something...the fact remains he lets his hatred blind him of being logical in terms of thinking like a General.

Not necessarily, I trusted him without metagaming knowledge at all. My trust was well placed.

But I really don't want to discuss this for the billionth time and quite frankly, and don't take it personally, I don't really care. I stopped caring for the game as a whole anyways, so yea. Play however you like.

Rest assured no offense taken...I can understand getting tired of the same arguments all the time...David Gaider once chined in on this argument explained his opinions of Loghains actions...they were deff a perspective I never considered...but still...no prop man.

[Raelis25]

Well, I started the thread not because I wanted to discuss Loghain's motivations for the billionth time, but because I wanted to know how other people who play a good Human Noble who's close to Alistair rationalize sparing Loghain. So if you guys don't want to discuss Loghain, by all means, don't! But tell me about your own characters' motivations in case you spared the guy! I'm really interested to know!

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I stopped caring for the game as a whole anyways, so yea.

Did the PC version kill it for you? 

[TheRevanchist]

Raelis25 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But at the
same time can't help but feel it's be a case of massive hypocricy on my
N's part to leave Loghain alive and deny his best friend Alistair a
chance to get revenge. After all, my HN had zero qualms about executing
Howe. And he wouldbe pissed as hell if someone suggested to him that
Howe should live. Satisfying his own thrist for revenge and denying
Alistair to satisfy his own - isn't it just unbelievably hypocritical?

I don't think that's hypocritical at all. No matter how you felt about
Howe (and dwarves and human mages wouldn't have known him from Adam), he
had to die. You had to get Anora out of there and he was standing in
your way. IF there had been an opportunity to spare him, if he had
surrendered and Riordan had hung around and suggested rite of
conscription which Alistair had supported and you refused to allow then
THAT would have been hypocritical. Because if it had happened, you would
have reacted like Alistair doesn't make you a hypocrite because it
didn't happen and so you didn't have to. That you wanted revenge against
Howe is only secondary here because everyone needed him to die.

You make a good point, although it doesn't really help me much because I always
thought a HN Warden is the one who'd feel a special kinship with
Alistair because they both lost their families. So if HN ended up in the
same position that Alistair did, would he/she be all reasonable and
practical and able to detach him/herself from his/her feelings if
Riordan offered to spare Howe? I have a hard time believing that. My
Warden was lucky enough to be presented with an opportunity to kill Howe
without any obstacles, with everyone cheering, but what would he have
done if he had been in Alistair's shoes? It still smacks of hypocrisy to me. ../../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png

kylecouch wrote...
The point I tried to make with this rant is this...I don't feel spareing Loghain is worth the risk (without metagame knowledge) he could simply kill you while your sleeping later out of spite...use his political ties to undermine your athority from behind the scenes etc...theres too many possible variables to simply assume he is only an asset and no risk to you what so ever once he knows he isn't dieing. Not to mention my HN thinks his honor is stained beyond redemption, he/she thinks poison and slavery are unforgiveable crimes. While they HN's tend to be very kind hearted and forgiveing...their mercy has limits in regards to things like this.

I understand where you're coming from, but did your Warden spare a child murderer, an assasin, or a Blood Mage who'd poisoned Arl Eamon? Where was the guarantee that all those people would not turn on you when it suited them? In that case you should not spare anyone because it's not worth the risk.

For the record...I almost never spare Zeveran...because many of my Wardens find that to be a big risk. (pluse my severe dislike of the character) In regard to Jowan?...I don't let him go...I tell Eamon to give him to Circle. Why? because it is not the Wardens or Eamons place to decide the fate of a blood mage in his (and my) opinion. But with regards to Sten...I must admit a defense for picking him is a lot harder to make. Mainly he releases him just so he don't die defensless in that cage to Darkspawn, because no one deserves that fate in his opinion. On top of that Sten says he personally wishs to atone for his crimes...Loghain on the other hand does not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I stopped caring for the game as a whole anyways, so yea.

Did the PC version kill it for you? 

No. I just get in that mood ever once in a while, where I don't care about much except serious stuff.

[Sarah1281]

You make a good point, although it doesn't really help me much because I always thought a HN Warden is the one who'd feel a special kinship with Alistair because they both lost their families. So if HN ended up in the same position that Alistair did, would he/she be all reasonable and practical and able to detach him/herself from his/her feelings if Riordan offered to spare Howe? I have a hard time believing that. My Warden was lucky enough to be presented with an opportunity to kill Howe without any obstacles, with everyone cheering, but what would he have done if he had been in Alistair's shoes? It still smacks of hypocrisy to me.

Hypocrisy

1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.

I still don't see how a HN who would not spare Howe sparing Loghain is a hypocrite. Maybe if they felt/said that vengeance is wrong and that's why they spared him or if Howe had given you the chance to spare him. Just because you identify with Alistair's loss of what he feels is family and want Howe dead no matter what doesn't make you a hypocrite although it won't stop you from feeling like one, I guess. How does killing the unrepentant Howe make you a hypocrite for not killing the surrendering and potentially useful Loghain? It's a completely different situation. The way you're putting it, it seems like you're going to be forced to support everyone's attempt at revenge, no matter how valid or misguided, that you ever come across ever or you'll feel yourself a hypocrite since you got vengeance.

[Sarah1281]

On top of that Sten says he personally wishs to atone for his crimes...Loghain on the other hand does not.

...Yes he does. The minute you find out about the GW sacrifice he's all 'I've done so much wrong, let me try to fix it' and he doesn't drop it. He does also admit that he's wrong if you personally fight him.

[TheRevanchist]

Persephone wrote...



I would rather not spare Loghain...but sadly that acursed Awakenings ret-con forces my hand. 
---------------

Wait, wait, what ret-con are we talking about here?


Secondly...needing a General? again he is not
needed...thats what the HNW is there for...to be the General that
Ferelden needs...someone willing to act upon threats that are real..
--------------------

The Orlesian threat is VERY real. 4 Legions amassing at the borders? Did you really think Celene sent those out of the goodness of her heart and that they would leave the moment the Blight was defeated? I think not.

---------------------
The
point I tried to make with this rant is this...I don't feel spareing
Loghain is worth the risk (without metagame knowledge) he could simply
kill you while your sleeping later out of spite...use his political ties
to undermine your athority from behind the scenes etc...theres too many
possible variables to simply assume he is only an asset and no risk to
you what so ever once he knows he isn't dieing. Not to mention my HN
thinks his honor is stained beyond redemption, he/she thinks poison and
slavery are unforgiveable crimes. While they HN's tend to be very kind
hearted and forgiveing...their mercy has limits in regards to things
like this.



Sorry for the long post...the subject of Loghain gets me riled up and I have strong opinions on him...

---------------

What would he stand to gain by killing his own Commander after becoming a Grey Warden himself and knowing the Blight to be real? Loghain can be stubborn as a mule, but he is not spiteful nor completely stupid. What political ties? He is a disgraced general, no longer a teyrn...who would support him in this after the Landsmeet? Poisoning/Sedating someone is unforgiveable? Might I assume that you always kill Zevran too then? 

1.The ret con I speak of is the US ret con where they are magicly alive again with no explination what so ever.

2. Thats simply useing his paranoid logic...there is no evidence to support this possibility. We have no way of knowing Empress Celenes motives, for all we know she is nothing like her father. 4 legions of Chevalirs actually seems small to me. Considering most Blights involve the armys of every nation in Thedas. On top of that...she willingly sent her Grey Wardens to help fight the Blight but they were turned away due to Loghains paranoya...Grey Wardens are famous for being only concered with Blight...he has no reason to turn them away for any other reason then blind pessimisim and paranoia formed in his own head.

3. No 90% of the time I don't spare Zeveran. For more then just that reason.

[TheRevanchist]

Sarah1281 wrote...

On top of that Sten says he personally wishs to atone for his crimes...Loghain on the other hand does not.

...Yes he does. The minute you find out about the GW sacrifice he's all 'I've done so much wrong, let me try to fix it' and he doesn't drop it. He does also admit that he's wrong if you personally fight him.

He only says that after you spare him and the revelation is told...not before...thats useing metagame arguments to decide something that happens before then...In regards to his words after you beat him in the duel however thats another matter. However thats not the same as saying "I want to redeem my actions" in my mind he is saying "your more capable then I thought"...to me he isn't sorry for his actions he simply admits your better then he preveiously thought.

[Persephone]

1) Hmmmmmmm........ You mean importing a dead Warden? 'cause if either Loghain or Alistair die in my DAO, they do not show up.

2) Nothing paranoid there. Empress Celene is a political mastermind, one only has to apply logic. As for 4 Legions, they had two legions at the Battle Of The River Dane. So hardly little. Grey Wardens only concerned for the Blight? They committed treason by plotting against a king AND allied themselves with the darkspawn in "The Calling". (Which Loghain witnessed) 

3) Wait, WHAT? Why? O_o

Modifié par Persephone, 26 décembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Sarah1281]

1.The ret con I speak of is the US ret con where they are magicly alive again with no explination what so ever.

That's not even slightly a retcon. There is no save after you do the US. If the game says no DR was done and you load your own character, that means the game assumed Alistair or Loghain died. The game is not trying to trick you or retcon ANYTHING. There is barely any continuity in Awakenings and a five-minute cameo of Alistair isn't really the end of the world. It's your fault for telling the game that when you loaded a dead character that Alistair died instead.

[Sarah1281]

kylecouch wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

On top of that Sten says he personally wishs to atone for his crimes...Loghain on the other hand does not.

...Yes he does. The minute you find out about the GW sacrifice he's all 'I've done so much wrong, let me try to fix it' and he doesn't drop it. He does also admit that he's wrong if you personally fight him.

He only says that after you spare him and the revelation is told...not before...thats useing metagame arguments to decide something that happens before then...In regards to his words after you beat him in the duel however thats another matter. However thats not the same as saying "I want to redeem my actions" in my mind he is saying "your more capable then I thought"...to me he isn't sorry for his actions he simply admits your better then he preveiously thought.

 And Sten talks about how he disgraced the qunari by losing control, not that he's wracked with guilt.

[_- Songlian -]

I actually never played a HN that sparred Loghain, regardless of any trust s/he might have placed in him afterwards and how much he was needed from a tactical point of view. I just didn't have a chance to role play a character that is able to step over their differences for the common good -- if using Loghain can indeed be seen as such.

The only PC who dumped Alistair and asked Loghain to join her was my human Blood Mage. 

Modifié par - Songlian -, 26 décembre 2010 - 06:16 .

[Raelis25]

kylecouch wrote...

But with regards to Sten...I must admit
a defense for picking him is a lot harder to make. Mainly he releases
him just so he don't die defensless in that cage to Darkspawn, because
no one deserves that fate in his opinion. On top of that Sten says he
personally wishs to atone for his crimes...Loghain on the other hand
does not.

Just out of curiosity... If Loghain had been in that cage, would you leave him to the darkspawn?

Sten
actually wants to stay in the cage - this is how he himself wishes to
atone for his crimes. But if the Warden goes out of his way to recruit
him anyway, that means he believes that Sten's heinous crime could be brushed off for the greater good. I believe the same can be applied to the Loghain situation.

As far as I know, Loghain does express remorse after you recruit him.

Sarah1281 wrote...

How does killing the unrepentant Howe make you a hypocrite for not killing the surrendering and potentially useful Loghain? It's a completely different situation. The way you're putting it, it seems like you're going to be forced to support everyone's attempt at revenge, no matter how valid or misguided, that you ever come across ever or you'll feel yourself a hypocrite since you got vengeance.

The way I saw it, the situations were very similar. The Warden and Alistair both lost their families because of the act of treachery. Both want revenge. The Warden gets to exact revenge and then deprives Alistair of the opportunity to do the same. This is why I felt it was hypocrisy - the Warden would probably hate it if someone suggested sparing Howe's life, but has no problem putting his close friend in this position.

But you made a very good point when you said that Loghain actually surrendered. I hadn't considered this, but it does make a big difference to me. He surrendered and he wants to make things right whereas Howe was irredeemable.

Also, I did not encourage Zathrian's thirst for vengeance, so by my own logic I'm already a hypocrite! So no point worrying about this now.

[TheRevanchist]

Persephone wrote...



1) Hmmmmmmm........ You mean importing a dead Warden? 'cause if either Loghain or Alistair die in my DAO, they do not show up.

2) Nothing paranoid there. Empress Celene is a political mastermind, one only has to apply logic. As for 4 Legions, they had two legions at the Battle Of The River Dane. So hardly little. Grey Wardens only concerned for the Blight? They committed treason by plotting against a king AND allied themselves with the darkspawn in "The Calling". (Which Loghain witnessed) 

3) Wait, WHAT? Why? O_o

2. How do you know she is a political mastermind? we know nothing about her...have never met her or know anything of sort. The Battle of River Dane was a lose for them wasn't it? so clearly 2 isnt enough. Sohia Dryden broke the rules of the Grey Wardens and many of them abandond her to her fate. I am still waiting for The Calling to be mailed to be from Amazon...so I can't argue that point yet.

3. One...I personaly hate that character...and two...my Warden can't trust someone who just tried to kill him...because nothing stops him from trying again later  (which in fact he does if you dont build his aproval)

[TheRevanchist]

Sarah1281 wrote...

1.The ret con I speak of is the US ret con where they are magicly alive again with no explination what so ever.

That's not even slightly a retcon. There is no save after you do the US. If the game says no DR was done and you load your own character, that means the game assumed Alistair or Loghain died. The game is not trying to trick you or retcon ANYTHING. There is barely any continuity in Awakenings and a five-minute cameo of Alistair isn't really the end of the world. It's your fault for telling the game that when you loaded a dead character that Alistair died instead.

No...Mr Gaider even said it is a ret-con...the Awakenings reconizes the "US flag" neither is dead in place of the Warden...he also says the DR is not made a default...everything is reconized as the US except your Warden is still alive...therefor it's a ret-con. Yes there is a save after the US is selected actually thats how the game reconizes it. Thats also how DA2 will reconize that import as Mr Gaider has said many times. "we didn't want to create an in game reason for an out of game decision the player makes when decideing to import their US Warden." However when importing my US Warden I didn't expect to freakin see my dead Warden on the damn screen...I was expecting the data to transer and make an Orlisan Warden in his place.

[TheRevanchist]

Raelis25 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

But with regards to Sten...I must admit
a defense for picking him is a lot harder to make. Mainly he releases
him just so he don't die defensless in that cage to Darkspawn, because
no one deserves that fate in his opinion. On top of that Sten says he
personally wishs to atone for his crimes...Loghain on the other hand
does not.

Just out of curiosity... If Loghain had been in that cage, would you leave him to the darkspawn?

Sten
actually wants to stay in the cage - this is how he himself wishes to
atone for his crimes. But if the Warden goes out of his way to recruit
him anyway, that means he believes that Sten's heinous crime could be brushed off for the greater good. I believe the same can be applied to the Loghain situation.

As far as I know, Loghain does express remorse after you recruit him.

Sarah1281 wrote...

How does killing the unrepentant Howe make you a hypocrite for not killing the surrendering and potentially useful Loghain? It's a completely different situation. The way you're putting it, it seems like you're going to be forced to support everyone's attempt at revenge, no matter how valid or misguided, that you ever come across ever or you'll feel yourself a hypocrite since you got vengeance.

The way I saw it, the situations were very similar. The Warden and Alistair both lost their families because of the act of treachery. Both want revenge. The Warden gets to exact revenge and then deprives Alistair of the opportunity to do the same. This is why I felt it was hypocrisy - the Warden would probably hate it if someone suggested sparing Howe's life, but has no problem putting his close friend in this position.

But you made a very good point when you said that Loghain actually surrendered. I hadn't considered this, but it does make a big difference to me. He surrendered and he wants to make things right whereas Howe was irredeemable.

Also, I did not encourage Zathrian's thirst for vengeance, so by my own logic I'm already a hypocrite! So no point worrying about this now.

Well...honestly I think you have here...because I honestly don't know what I would do there. It sure as hell would be a lot harder for me to decide then Sten thats for sure. But like I said....he don't think he is a soulless child eating monster...he is simply a dispicable person...much like Sten...but honestly I hate the Qunari people anyway for their views on the world but thats another topic. Thinking about it I don't really know why I ever let Sten out. Actually my first playthrough I didn't...I left him in the cage believe it or not...and I wasn't even aware of Leliana's exsistnce...-.- Honestly though when I play I have these moments where my characters morals are forgotton and I pick things simply because of metagaming...Sten is one of those things...for some reason it never occures to me to think like my character about Sten...I simply grab him because he is good DPS...yet I dont even use him in 90% of the game...so I wonder why I do that either. Though I am glade I did...because after explaining the Qunari culture to me I have learned to hate them...so DA2 will be most enjoyable for me. I am also glade I did save Loghain for the sole reason of learning about Anora as a child and such...for those strings of knowledge alone and I glade...from a story standpoint...no...however now that I think it about it...I don't think Sten is ever leaving that cage again...because I never even paid attention as to why I let him out...writing this I found out why...so realisticly I think he's stayin there.

If it came to this however he would probably let him out of cage if for no other reason so he could defend himself from Darkspawn. But he sure as hell wouldn't take him with him.

Btw...stoping Zathrian does not make you a hypocrite...because Zathrian is punishing people who had nothing to do with what happen to him...those that suffer were not even alive when the tragety occured. Whereas Howe and Loghain are the main instigators of their respective paths of revenge and are in fact still alive to ensure revenge is carried out. Zathrian also got his revenge long ago...he simply took it too far.

Modifié par kylecouch, 26 décembre 2010 - 07:04 .

[TheRevanchist]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I stopped caring for the game as a whole anyways, so yea.

Did the PC version kill it for you? 

No. I just get in that mood ever once in a while, where I don't care about much except serious stuff.

Like David Xanatos?

[testing123]

 I'm going to try to return to the original point of the thread, though I feel any attempts are futile now.

Sarah has already made the crucial point on your feelings of hypocrisy.  Howe was never given the opportunity to be spared, nor did he even surrender.  The comparison to the Landsmeet is therefore invalid.  As for reasons why your 'goody two shoes' human noble would want to spare Loghain, you may need to get a bit creative with your own backstory since it isn't explicitly stated in the game.

Your father fought alongside Loghain in the rebellion.  Unlike any other origin, the human noble is the best equipped to have an understanding of Loghain's history.  You are the most likely to actually regard Loghain as a hero rather than some guy everyone else talked about.  In short, you are most likely to understand what he was before he was turned into your antagonist.  Like I said, that doesn't really come across in the game, but based on your origin it is fair to assume that you would have this information.  You've already said that your character spares his enemies and turns them into allies, Loghain would be more of a known quantity to your warden than any other origin.

One last note, Alistair is going to hate you.  You are supposed to feel bad.  This is your hardening moment.  You've just made a choice at great cost to yourself, presumably for the good of Ferelden.  Alistair will throw stinging accusations at you and you will take it because you made the right choice.  At least when the Landsmeet is over, everyone will still be alive. 

[TheRevanchist]

jvee wrote...

 I'm going to try to return to the original point of the thread, though I feel any attempts are futile now.

Sarah has already made the crucial point on your feelings of hypocrisy.  Howe was never given the opportunity to be spared, nor did he even surrender.  The comparison to the Landsmeet is therefore invalid.  As for reasons why your 'goody two shoes' human noble would want to spare Loghain, you may need to get a bit creative with your own backstory since it isn't explicitly stated in the game.

Your father fought alongside Loghain in the rebellion.  Unlike any other origin, the human noble is the best equipped to have an understanding of Loghain's history.  You are the most likely to actually regard Loghain as a hero rather than some guy everyone else talked about.  In short, you are most likely to understand what he was before he was turned into your antagonist.  Like I said, that doesn't really come across in the game, but based on your origin it is fair to assume that you would have this information.  You've already said that your character spares his enemies and turns them into allies, Loghain would be more of a known quantity to your warden than any other origin.

One last note, Alistair is going to hate you.  You are supposed to feel bad.  This is your hardening moment.  You've just made a choice at great cost to yourself, presumably for the good of Ferelden.  Alistair will throw stinging accusations at you and you will take it because you made the right choice.  At least when the Landsmeet is over, everyone will still be alive. 

Excellent points...I always play under the impression that my HN knows these things, which of course makes his acts in the game even more awful to my Warden. Afterall Loghain fought Orlais so Ferelden would not be slaves to them...yet he turns around and sells Fereldens to Tevinter like it's nothing. Thats how my Warden sees this.

But yes...it's suppose to be a hard choice regarding your friendship like he said. It's mainly whats more important to you...your friendship with Alistair or the possibility of Loghain being useful as a General.

[Raelis25]

jvee wrote...

 I'm going to try to return to the original point of the thread, though I feel any attempts are futile now.

Sarah has already made the crucial point on your feelings of hypocrisy.  Howe was never given the opportunity to be spared, nor did he even surrender.  The comparison to the Landsmeet is therefore invalid.  As for reasons why your 'goody two shoes' human noble would want to spare Loghain, you may need to get a bit creative with your own backstory since it isn't explicitly stated in the game.

Your father fought alongside Loghain in the rebellion.  Unlike any other origin, the human noble is the best equipped to have an understanding of Loghain's history.  You are the most likely to actually regard Loghain as a hero rather than some guy everyone else talked about.  In short, you are most likely to understand what he was before he was turned into your antagonist.  Like I said, that doesn't really come across in the game, but based on your origin it is fair to assume that you would have this information.  You've already said that your character spares his enemies and turns them into allies, Loghain would be more of a known quantity to your warden than any other origin.

One last note, Alistair is going to hate you.  You are supposed to feel bad.  This is your hardening moment.  You've just made a choice at great cost to yourself, presumably for the good of Ferelden.  Alistair will throw stinging accusations at you and you will take it because you made the right choice.  At least when the Landsmeet is over, everyone will still be alive. 

Thank you. You and Sarah both have made great points. I can reconcile the decision to spare Loghain now with my Warden's sense of morality, and I'm going to give him a chance to redeem himself, even it's going to hurt like hell to lose Alistair... He really is my character's best friend.

[testing123]

Raelis25 wrote...
Thank you. You and Sarah both have made great points. I can reconcile the decision to spare Loghain now with my Warden's sense of morality, and I'm going to give him a chance to redeem himself, even it's going to hurt like hell to lose Alistair... He really is my character's best friend.

No problem.  I love Alistair as well.  Probably the first time in a game where I actually felt like I had a brother by the end of it.

kylecouch wrote...
Afterall Loghain fought Orlais so Ferelden would not be slaves to them...yet he turns around and sells Fereldens to Tevinter like it's nothing. Thats how my Warden sees this. 

It is ironic isn't it?  Nothing in the game signifies how twisted his ideology has made him like that decision.  Though no one could accuse him of not following his own logic to its bitter end.

[Persephone]

jvee wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Afterall Loghain fought Orlais so Ferelden would not be slaves to them...yet he turns around and sells Fereldens to Tevinter like it's nothing. Thats how my Warden sees this. 

It is ironic isn't it?  Nothing in the game signifies how twisted his ideology has made him like that decision.  Though no one could accuse him of not following his own logic to its bitter end.

In that he is no different than most of Ferelden. Watch how elves are treated. The Alienage being purged is acceptable. Women being abducted to be raped&killed...no one interferes or cares. Watch how Nan treats the servants at Castle Cousland.