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[Addai]

kylecouch wrote...

klarabella wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Secondly...how would Loghain know if there were too many Darkspawn on the field if he needed to rely on a becon to tell him when to attack?

It's not impossible. KnightofPhoenix has made a copy of the battle plan and pointed out how he would be able to see the Darkspawn coming in but not the front lines.

It's still kind of weird, considering that Ostagar was chosen as a battlefield for it's excellent, defensible position, that holding such a position would be a matter of hours or days, not one hour. It's also strange why an unbeatable horde of Darkspawn at Ostagar (something no one has ever seen in their lifetime) becomes a non-issue after it is left alone (although it spreads up to the Western Hills according to Arl Wulff).

Thats another thing that I don't get...Ostagar is like DA's Thermopoly...Leonidas sure as hell lasted longer then an hour against "a million" Persans. Theres no way in hell theres over a million Darkspawn...if there was the victory should be immpossible even with half of Thedas involved. Let alone a group of rag tag people one person gets with treatys.

(the husband)

Well one of the big factors is the boulder throwing ability of the Ogers.   Even though realism would suggest that attacking from an elavated position is superior (the mounted seige engines of the humans should have the advantage), the game writers obviously gave the darkspawn firepower superiority even though gravity was working against them.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't know if the charge was part of the plan Loghain had in mind, or if it was Cailan's bright idea. In either case, it was stupid and kind of destroys the purpose.

I think it's pretty clear that Caillan wasn't interested in strategy, and that the plan was Loghain's.

Calling it stupid kind of goes against his military genius, no?

Addai67 wrote...

 Loghain had no intention of letting Cailan leave that battle alive.  If Cailan had been smart enough to stay out of the thick of things, Loghain would have had a plan B in mind.  He wanted Cailan dead, and he got what he wanted.

(husband)

I think the game cut scenes easily give that impression but recent Word of God (David Gaider) contradicts this premise.

I've said many times - DG should have put the Loghain he wanted into the game, instead of the Loghain we got.

As someone else pointed out, DG didn't write Loghain.  And the VO notes, which tell the actor how to portray the line, tell us what Loghain was supposed to be thinking.  Now, many people argue that those aren't canon, especially in the face of what DG says.  But they sure are what they wanted the actor to convey, so there must be SOMETHING to it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I think it's pretty clear that Caillan wasn't interested in strategy, and that the plan was Loghain's.

Calling it stupid kind of goes against his military genius, no?

The fact that Cailan is uninterested in strategy does not mean, at all, that he wouldn't do something like that, just so it can look glorious. In fact, because he doesn't care about strategy, he is more likely to do stupid things like that. 

I think it's more probable that it was Cailan who came up with the idea of charging. Loghain's plan did not need, at all, that Cailan charges. Cailan not planning the strategy does not mean that he can't decide to charge on his own accord.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:33 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I think it's pretty clear that Caillan wasn't interested in strategy, and that the plan was Loghain's.

Calling it stupid kind of goes against his military genius, no?

The fact that Cailan is uninterested in strategy does not mean, at all, that he wouldn't do something like that, just so it can look glorious. In fact, because he doesn't care about strategy, he is more likely to do stupid things like that. 

I think it's more probable that it was Cailan who came up with the idea of charging. Loghain's plan did not need, at all, that Cailan charges. Cailan not planning the strategy does not mean that he can't decide to charge on his own accord.

Which charge are you talking about?  Loghain's planned pincer movement, or that charge of the dogs and soldiers with Caillan?

Because I thought you meant the former, but it seems from this post that you meant the latter.  Because I have different opinions on each.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I meant the latter. It was unnecessary and the darkspawn were charging at them anyways, they didn't need to show extra commitment. The dog charge makes sense and in some ways, acts as an alternative to Roman pilums.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[Blooddrunk1004]

The only reason i spared Loghain is because i dont want to involve anyone in Morrigan ritual.

Either you marry Alistair to Anora or rule with him if you romanced him.

Ferelden gets a good leader.

Loghain is dead so Alistair is satisfied.

No evil babyes.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I meant the latter. It was unnecessary and the darkspawn were charging at them anyways, they didn't need to show extra commitment. The dog charge makes sense and in some ways, acts as an alternative to Roman pilums.

Ahh, yes, then I agree.  The dog charge makes perfect sense to me as a means to brak up the DS ranks, but charging the main body of his troops is kind of dumb - it limits his archers and ability to use his siege engines - because they now start hitting his own troops.  An advance from a primarily defensive position is sometimes advisable, but since they were using a basic hammer and anvil strategy, the better practice would have been to hold the line, and let the darkspawn come to them.

Apologies for the confusion on my end.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No apology needed

[Giggles_Manically]

I was giddy when watching Ostagar for the first time.



I thought it would play out like Aquae-Sexitae under Gaius Marius.

Then I saw the army charge out to fight the DS..........



Then I facepalmed and knew the battle was lost.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Then I facepalmed and knew the battle was lost.

The moment Cailan opened his mouth, I knew the battle was lost.

And I think Ostagar is similar to Vaslui. In theory.

[Dean_the_Young]

Am I the only one who blames tactical ineptness on the animators and the writers drawing up the scene, as opposed to the characters involved?

[TJPags]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Am I the only one who blames tactical ineptness on the animators and the writers drawing up the scene, as opposed to the characters involved?

Well, this is true, but . . . It's not like I get the choice of making DG a Grey Warden, is it?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Am I the only one who blames tactical ineptness on the animators and the writers drawing up the scene, as opposed to the characters involved?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Plus, if Ancient Tevinter is based on Rome or ancient Greece (I say that because the title Archon is Greek), their tactics and battle formations would be more capable of defending the chokepoint than the semi-civilized Fereldens whose charge served no purpose at all except for cinematic effect.

Yes unfortunately Bioware sucks at potraying / writing about warfare and to a lesser extent, politics.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[Gabey5]

mousestalker wrote...

Loghain is the most respected military commander in Ferelden. He has followers who are devoted to him. He has a faction in the Landsmeet. His daughter loves him. None of the following has any impact in game, but all of it would apply to real world considerations.

If you want the absolute largest and best equipped army possible, you want to unite all of Ferelden and give it the best leadership possible, then sparing Loghain is the sensible plan, especially if he then becomes a Grey Warden. Your job as a Grey Warden is to stop the Blight. Not indulge in reprisals.

Howe was a divisive figure. He had no friends, one patron and many enemies. Killing him does not diminish your forces at all. It can only add to them.

Loghain is well regarded by many in Ferelden. His forces would not be at all enthusiastic about fighting for someone who had him killed. Some would fight, out of necessity. Some might very well scarper off to the Free Marches instead. You need his army.

From the perspective of getting the biggest and best army possible, I'd argue the best result is to have Alistair marry Anora and spare Loghain. That unites the country, settles the civil war and gets everyone pointed in the right direction. That it's not what Anora, Alistair and Loghain necessarily want is besides the point.

he has 1 follower in the landsmeet if you do your job right. His forces are a small few and the masses will follow their queen, who if you do your job right, exposes him and joins the wardens. he isnt even remotely necessary

Modifié par Gabey5, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Speaking in regards to the OP:



Choosing whether or not to spare Loghain was perhaps the single most difficult choice for my Male Human Noble, for entirely personal reasons. For all that he was a more objective, less sympathetic, and even somewhat racist Ferelden national, it just struck so many emotions. My Cousland shared many views and beliefs with Loghain, but at the same time Loghain made so many mistakes, had done many crimes against the nation, and had remained allied with Howe. At the same time, Cousland and Alistair were like brothers, and he was acutely aware of the personal betrayal that would result from sparing Loghain. And a third consideration was his maneuvering, on for a variety of reasons ranging from protecting Alistair from royal politics to wanting the throne to a long-held admiration of Anora, to put himself on the throne as King-Consort.



He spared Loghain to further his ambitions and the nation of Ferelden, but intervened so that Alistair would live, and has at some level always regretted that choice.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I was giddy when watching Ostagar for the first time.

I thought it would play out like Aquae-Sexitae under Gaius Marius.
Then I saw the army charge out to fight the DS..........

Then I facepalmed and knew the battle was lost.

I think when Cailan said Loghain was going to "bore him with strategies" was the moment I knew the fate of the country was in the hands of a terminally stupid king.

The battle scene drove it home. Sure, nice cinematics. Having your army sitting under a big bridge out in the open and charging like madmen instead of up on the hill raining down fire and projectiles?

Please tell me Loghain did not write this crap strategy. No. He just didn't. cailan must have changed everything at the last minute.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I meant the latter. It was unnecessary and the darkspawn were charging at them anyways, they didn't need to show extra commitment. The dog charge makes sense and in some ways, acts as an alternative to Roman pilums.

(husband)


Wouldn't a normal way of dealing with a charge like this to have set up a massive pike phalanx?   Something the game doesn't let you do obviously, but makes a hell of a lot more sense then what happens in the cut scene, and it would have been elementary for a general to do it. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

If Ferelden were an advanced civilzation like tevinter, perhaps. But they are more near barbarians than anything, so Loggy would have had to make do with what he had. it wasn't a unified army, like the Roman army, but one composed of the different armies of several nobles, all trained at different levels and styles.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I meant the latter. It was unnecessary and the darkspawn were charging at them anyways, they didn't need to show extra commitment. The dog charge makes sense and in some ways, acts as an alternative to Roman pilums.

(husband)


Wouldn't a normal way of dealing with a charge like this to have set up a massive pike phalanx?   Something the game doesn't let you do obviously, but makes a hell of a lot more sense then what happens in the cut scene, and it would have been elementary for a general to do it. 

Absolutely the smart way to go.  But, as you point out, the game doesn't show that - hell, I don't even remember seeing anyone with a pike-like weapon at that battle, or in the entire game.  Was there even a spear available for use? 

Clearly, Ferelden didn't have the right equipment to fight that kind of battle.  Either that or, again, the people who wrote/animated that battle scene have no idea about combat strategy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I meant the latter. It was unnecessary and the darkspawn were charging at them anyways, they didn't need to show extra commitment. The dog charge makes sense and in some ways, acts as an alternative to Roman pilums.

(husband)


Wouldn't a normal way of dealing with a charge like this to have set up a massive pike phalanx?   Something the game doesn't let you do obviously, but makes a hell of a lot more sense then what happens in the cut scene, and it would have been elementary for a general to do it. 

Yes. That or a Roman formation. The problem is, Fereldans used longswords which is virtually hopeless in formation fighting, unlike the Roman gladius. So their best bet was a pike phalanx, at least in the first few rows to deal with the charge (which would have already been weakened by the mabaris).

Plus they had magic. Morrigan, in the deleted Circle scene where we could expose her to the Templars, can create a wall of fire. Can none of the Circle Mages do something similar?

Ugh, they are useless.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:44 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I haven't seen any tower shields or anything similar in game, and definitely no pikes, spears, halberds, ect, though everyone keeps talking about pike twirling.



In fact, fereldens are amazingly limited in their array of available weapons. No real daggers (daggers are more like short swords) no flails, no morningstars, no slings or throwing weapons, no polearms, ect. They have a bit more variety in armor, but not alot.

[DPSSOC]

Sorry missed a few days playing catch-up

Raelis25 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I've seen people bring up sparing Sten and Zev and Jowan but that's on a completely different scale. Sten murdered a family; tragic but not unforgivable.

I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea that...

 
Most people are uncomfortable with most of my ideas so I'm used to it.  As for your concern for me it's a matter of utility.  Sten killed 8 (I think) farmers, the nation will go on without so much as a hiccup.  Loghain murdered 1 king and we see what that ended up causing.  So Sten's crime is more acceptable (to me) because the victims are, sad to say, insignificant.  Their deaths change nothing.  Furthermore he committed 1 crime (as far as we're made aware when we meet him) and then waited to be captured.  In one moment Sten lost control and afterward submitted himself to justice, willing to accept whatever punishment the people saw fit.  It was tragic and terrible and I'm sure if I could empathize with people I'd feel very sorry for the survivor but it was one mistake with minimal impact.

Loghain's actions on the otherhand are screaming premeditation.  From the poisoning of Eamon to his tone of voice, and the fact that rather than say, "The battle is lost there's nothing we can do" when Cauthrien objects h basically tells her to shut up and do as she's told are telling.  Also it's not just the death of the King, it's the attempt to put himself in charge by browbeating the Queen and the Landsmeet, the torture of the nobility, poisoning Eamon (whatever his goals or reasons), freeing a maleficar, imprisoning a Templar and dooming him to madness from Lyrium withdrawl, etc.  There's a long list.

Now people have mentioned that that wasn't Gaiders intent, and perhaps it wasn't, but be it film, book, game, or song I don't give much consideration to authorial intent.  There's what they intended and there's what they made, if there's discrepency between the two I go towards what was made because it's the only thing we can be sure of.  For example there's what you say and then there's what you meant.  Sometimes we'll say something and people take it the wrong way and no assurance on our part will convince them otherwise because we could just be saying that because they responded badly.

Now to go on a slight tangent some people bring up TST in defence of Loghain and I have to ask did we read a different book?  The man's a psychopath he manipulates his best friend to kill the woman he loves, then guilts the woman he loves into a loveless marriage with him.  Maybe the Calling will make things better but going off of TST the man's twisted, correct perhaps but twisted.

[Persephone]

DPSSOC wrote...

Loghain's actions on the otherhand are screaming premeditation.  From the poisoning of Eamon to his tone of voice, and the fact that rather than say, "The battle is lost there's nothing we can do" when Cauthrien objects h basically tells her to shut up and do as she's told are telling.  Also it's not just the death of the King, it's the attempt to put himself in charge by browbeating the Queen and the Landsmeet, the torture of the nobility, poisoning Eamon (whatever his goals or reasons), freeing a maleficar, imprisoning a Templar and dooming him to madness from Lyrium withdrawl, etc.  There's a long list.

Now people have mentioned that that wasn't Gaiders intent, and perhaps it wasn't, but be it film, book, game, or song I don't give much consideration to authorial intent.  There's what they intended and there's what they made, if there's discrepency between the two I go towards what was made because it's the only thing we can be sure of.  For example there's what you say and then there's what you meant.  Sometimes we'll say something and people take it the wrong way and no assurance on our part will convince them otherwise because we could just be saying that because they responded badly.

Now to go on a slight tangent some people bring up TST in defence of Loghain and I have to ask did we read a different book?  The man's a psychopath he manipulates his best friend to kill the woman he loves, then guilts the woman he loves into a loveless marriage with him.  Maybe the Calling will make things better but going off of TST the man's twisted, correct perhaps but twisted.

I can only speak for myself but I can see much of Gaider's intent and interpretation in the character. Recruiting him and taking him back to Ostagar rounded everything up. Since I despise Eamon for his plotting against the queen, his ruthless forcing Alistair into becoming his puppet....his grand-fatherly act doesn't fool me. As far as I am concerned, sedating him was a bad idea, were I Loghain, I'd have killed him.

Don't give me the Katriel apologies. Katriel committed the crime Loghain is accused of and there is NO doubt as she admits it. So she dies. Yet those who execute Loghain for the same reason, excuse Katriel's betrayal? Her death was necessary. Surely those who execute Loghain for the same reasons...???

Loghain sacrifices the woman he loves for Ferelden's survival. A tragedy. But the marriage between Maric and Rowan was necessary. And it wasn't loveless.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Persephone wrote...

I can only speak for myself but I can see much of Gaider's intent and interpretation in the character. Recruiting him and taking him back to Ostagar rounded everything up. Since I despise Eamon for his plotting against the queen, his ruthless forcing Alistair into becoming his puppet....his grand-fatherly act doesn't fool me. As far as I am concerned, sedating him was a bad idea, were I Loghain, I'd have killed him.

This just deserves much fist bump-age.