267 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Why is it disgusting? He makes Maric start behaving like the king he's supposed to be instead of a star struck school boy.

[Persephone]

Mezzil wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Don't give me the Katriel apologies. Katriel committed the crime Loghain is accused of and there is NO doubt as she admits it. So she dies. Yet those who execute Loghain for the same reason, excuse Katriel's betrayal? Her death was necessary. Surely those who execute Loghain for the same reasons...???

Who cares about Katriel? It's disgusting what Loghain does to his best friend. Why this hard to understand?

I do not remember Loghain forcing Maric to kill Katriel. That was Maric's decision. He decided against mercy when it came to the woman he supposedly loved (Whatever for?) ....the woman who had betrayed him at every turn as she was an Orlesian spy. It made Maric into the king of legends Ferelden needed, rather than the naive, clumsy boy he used to be. Was it a loving thing to do? No. Was it necessary? Oh yes. And Maric never hated Loghain for it. So why should I? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh that's rich, now Loghain evily manipulated his love to marry someone she doesn't love, because he wants to see her suffer. Someone completely missed the point here.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[testing123]

Persephone wrote...
I do not remember Loghain forcing Maric to kill Katriel. That was Maric's decision. He decided against mercy when it came to the woman he supposedly loved (Whatever for?) ....the woman who had betrayed him at every turn as she was an Orlesian spy. It made Maric into the king of legends Ferelden needed, rather than the naive, clumsy boy he used to be. Was it a loving thing to do? No. Was it necessary? Oh yes. And Maric never hated Loghain for it. So why should I? 

Do you remember Loghain withholding potentially pertinent information?  I do.  I will not debate whether or not her death was necessary for Maric to become a good king, or even whether or not she deserved it.  But it is worth noting that Maric did not make his decision with full disclosure and seemed to regret it the rest of his life.  At best, it's manipulation of a man he called his 'best friend.'

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I do not remember Loghain forcing Maric to kill Katriel. That was Maric's decision. He decided against mercy when it came to the woman he supposedly loved (Whatever for?) ....the woman who had betrayed him at every turn as she was an Orlesian spy. It made Maric into the king of legends Ferelden needed, rather than the naive, clumsy boy he used to be. Was it a loving thing to do? No. Was it necessary? Oh yes. And Maric never hated Loghain for it. So why should I? 

Do you remember Loghain withholding potentially pertinent information?  I do.  I will not debate whether or not her death was necessary for Maric to become a good king, or even whether or not she deserved it.  But it is worth noting that Maric did not make his decision with full disclosure and seemed to regret it the rest of his life.  At best, it's manipulation of a man he called his 'best friend.'

Probably because he thought that had he told him, Maric would prove to be as stupid as his ancestor Calenhad, by putting his feelings above the needs of Ferelden.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Probably because he thought that had he told him, Maric would prove to be as stupid as his ancestor Calenhad, by putting his feelings above the needs of Ferelden.

Indeed, I'm not saying he didn't receive his desired outcome.  Origins is about him not receiving his desired outcome. =P

[TJPags]

Persephone wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Loghain's actions on the otherhand are screaming premeditation.  From the poisoning of Eamon to his tone of voice, and the fact that rather than say, "The battle is lost there's nothing we can do" when Cauthrien objects h basically tells her to shut up and do as she's told are telling.  Also it's not just the death of the King, it's the attempt to put himself in charge by browbeating the Queen and the Landsmeet, the torture of the nobility, poisoning Eamon (whatever his goals or reasons), freeing a maleficar, imprisoning a Templar and dooming him to madness from Lyrium withdrawl, etc.  There's a long list.

Now people have mentioned that that wasn't Gaiders intent, and perhaps it wasn't, but be it film, book, game, or song I don't give much consideration to authorial intent.  There's what they intended and there's what they made, if there's discrepency between the two I go towards what was made because it's the only thing we can be sure of.  For example there's what you say and then there's what you meant.  Sometimes we'll say something and people take it the wrong way and no assurance on our part will convince them otherwise because we could just be saying that because they responded badly.

Now to go on a slight tangent some people bring up TST in defence of Loghain and I have to ask did we read a different book?  The man's a psychopath he manipulates his best friend to kill the woman he loves, then guilts the woman he loves into a loveless marriage with him.  Maybe the Calling will make things better but going off of TST the man's twisted, correct perhaps but twisted.

I can only speak for myself but I can see much of Gaider's intent and interpretation in the character. Recruiting him and taking him back to Ostagar rounded everything up. Since I despise Eamon for his plotting against the queen, his ruthless forcing Alistair into becoming his puppet....his grand-fatherly act doesn't fool me. As far as I am concerned, sedating him was a bad idea, were I Loghain, I'd have killed him.

Don't give me the Katriel apologies. Katriel committed the crime Loghain is accused of and there is NO doubt as she admits it. So she dies. Yet those who execute Loghain for the same reason, excuse Katriel's betrayal? Her death was necessary. Surely those who execute Loghain for the same reasons...???

Loghain sacrifices the woman he loves for Ferelden's survival. A tragedy. But the marriage between Maric and Rowan was necessary. And it wasn't loveless.

Who excuses what Katriel did?  The condemnation comes from the fact that Loghain intentionally witheld information from Maric, in order to ensure the result he wanted.  Now, she deserved it, no question in my mind.  But don't you think Maric should have had all the information before making his decision?

As for Eamon and his "plot" against the queen.  This confuses me.  Should he not have loyalty to his king and his country above that of the king's wife? 

[testing123]

TJPags wrote...
But don't you think Maric should have had all the information before making his decision?

I'm curious, would your opinion be changed if you knew, without a doubt, that Maric would have pardoned her entirely were the information not withheld?

[TJPags]

jvee wrote...

TJPags wrote...
But don't you think Maric should have had all the information before making his decision?

I'm curious, would your opinion be changed if you knew, without a doubt, that Maric would have pardoned her entirely were the information not withheld?

Nope.  And here's why.

Maric is the King, he's the guy who gets to make the decision.  He should have all the information.  I would willingly argue that he should kill her, and I may just withdraw my support from him if he didn't, but I have a big problem with the decision not to tell him everything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
Maric is the King, he's the guy who gets to make the decision.  He should have all the information.  I would willingly argue that he should kill her, and I may just withdraw my support from him if he didn't, but I have a big problem with the decision not to tell him everything.

Now imagine if several nobles think the exact same way as you.
Wouldn't withholding information in order to avoid a civil war be justified?

I would agree that Maric should recieve all relevent information if he was a good king capable of making hard decisions. He is not, at least not by that point.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Maric is the King, he's the guy who gets to make the decision.  He should have all the information.  I would willingly argue that he should kill her, and I may just withdraw my support from him if he didn't, but I have a big problem with the decision not to tell him everything.

Now imagine if several nobles think the exact same way as you.
Wouldn't withholding information in order to avoid a civil war be justified?

I would agree that Maric should recieve all relevent information if he was a good king capable of making hard decisions. He is not, at least not by that point.

See, here's the thing though - you can't have it both ways.

You can't say "this is my king - this is the man I will follow, whose decisions I will obey, whose wishes I will honor" and then start by holding back information so that he makes decisions you want.  If you do that, you're not following him, you're handicapping him.

So, you give him the information.  If he decides the way you think he should, you support him.  If he doesn't, you don't support him.

Note, I'm not saying you need to actively oppose him.  And let's face it, not every decision will go your way, or the way you want.  All you can ask of any leader, or any judge, IMO, is that s/he be fair, and impartial.  If they are, you have to respect their decisions, even when they don't go your way.

If you decide they are NOT fair, and NOT impartial, then you can't respect them.  And if you can't respect them, how the HELL could you justify putting them in charge?

Note - most of the time, when I say "you" I mean any generic person, and IMO.  I'm not referring to any specifically.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well I would agree that I do not understand Loghain's fascination with Maric. It would have made a lot more sense if he just wanted to put a Therein on the throne and run the show from behind the scenes. Sadly Loghain is not smart enough for this.

In this situation, I think, once again, Loghain put Ferelden above the king and thought that withholding info from the king was in Ferelden's interests.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 décembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I would agree that Maric should recieve all relevent information if he was a good king capable of making hard decisions. He is not, at least not by that point.

So I suppose that means that you personally think that Katriel deserves death regardless of what the letter says?  In that case, doesn't the letter technically become irrelevant information (at least in your eyes)?  Otherwise, you are admitting that the letter supports a case for some form of leniency, no?

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well I would agree that I do not understand Loghain's fascination with Maric. It would have made a lot more sense if he just wanted to put a Therein on the throne and run the show from behind the scenes. Sadly Loghain is not smart enough for this.

In this situation, I think, once again, Loghain put Ferelden above the king and thought that withholding info from the king was in Ferelden's interests.

How do you think Maric would have felt, if he ever found out the information was withheld?

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I would agree that Maric should recieve all relevent information if he was a good king capable of making hard decisions. He is not, at least not by that point.

So I suppose that means that you personally think that Katriel deserves death regardless of what the letter says?  In that case, doesn't the letter technically become irrelevant information (at least in your eyes)?  Otherwise, you are admitting that the letter supports a case for some form of leniency, no?

It's not whether she deserves to die or not. It's that she needs to die. The risk is too great to let her live, she would be the only loose end to an embarrasing debacle.

It does invite leniency on a personal lvel. Leniency that I believe Maric cannot afford to give.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well I would agree that I do not understand Loghain's fascination with Maric. It would have made a lot more sense if he just wanted to put a Therein on the throne and run the show from behind the scenes. Sadly Loghain is not smart enough for this.

In this situation, I think, once again, Loghain put Ferelden above the king and thought that withholding info from the king was in Ferelden's interests.

How do you think Maric would have felt, if he ever found out the information was withheld?

He did  find out, didn't he?

He was mad and depressed, but that was it.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well I would agree that I do not understand Loghain's fascination with Maric. It would have made a lot more sense if he just wanted to put a Therein on the throne and run the show from behind the scenes. Sadly Loghain is not smart enough for this.

In this situation, I think, once again, Loghain put Ferelden above the king and thought that withholding info from the king was in Ferelden's interests.

How do you think Maric would have felt, if he ever found out the information was withheld?

He did  find out, didn't he?

He was mad and depressed, but that was it.

Did he?  I don't remember him finding out.  I remember that Rowan knew, and I remember Maric being upset that he had to kill Katriel, and I remember Maric being upset when Rowan died.  I don't remember him ever finding out.  But I'm not certain.

[testing123]

TJPags wrote...
Did he?  I don't remember him finding out.  I remember that Rowan knew, and I remember Maric being upset that he had to kill Katriel, and I remember Maric being upset when Rowan died.  I don't remember him ever finding out.  But I'm not certain.

Well, now I feel like a moron.  I'm quite certain Maric discovered the letter, but I'm not actually certain that he realized it was Loghain who withheld it from him.  It's been too long I suppose.

[TJPags]

jvee wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Did he?  I don't remember him finding out.  I remember that Rowan knew, and I remember Maric being upset that he had to kill Katriel, and I remember Maric being upset when Rowan died.  I don't remember him ever finding out.  But I'm not certain.

Well, now I feel like a moron.  I'm quite certain Maric discovered the letter, but I'm not actually certain that he realized it was Loghain who withheld it from him.  It's been too long I suppose.

I could be wrong.  I only read the book once, and it was several months ago, and I didn't particularly like it.  So my memory may not be correct on this.

But rather than simply having no memory one way or the other, I seem to have the memory that he did NOT find out - because I remember being kind of shocked when I found out about the letter, and wondering about it.

But again - I may not be correct, and if someone can say definitively, I'd accept being corrected here.

Yes, I'm too lazy to go find the book and find out myself.

*edit - it also wouldn't matter much to me if he did find out later - the fact that Loghain withheld the info is what I find damning.

Modifié par TJPags, 31 décembre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well I would agree that I do not understand Loghain's fascination with Maric. It would have made a lot more sense if he just wanted to put a Therein on the throne and run the show from behind the scenes. Sadly Loghain is not smart enough for this.

In this situation, I think, once again, Loghain put Ferelden above the king and thought that withholding info from the king was in Ferelden's interests.

That's the thing. maric told Loghain never to put one single person above the country. Including the king.

Loghain witholding the information was an example of that. Maric was still to emotional and lovestruck to be the king Ferelden needed at the time. Had he known everything, the idiot might have let his feelings for Katriel override what needed to be done. And his relatiship with an Orlesian elf bard/spy who betrayed the rebels....I don't think it needs to be said what that could do to an already weak and shaky alliance of the rebellion.

So yeah. Loggy actually did what Maric made him promise to, and served Ferelden, not the king.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

TJPags wrote...


As for Eamon and his "plot" against the queen.  This confuses me.  Should he not have loyalty to his king and his country above that of the king's wife? 

Above the king's wife? In case you hadn't noticed, Anora is not just the king's wife, at his death, she's the queen, the monarch, and ruler of the country. Eamon is plotting against the queen, the legit ruler of the country. He is not serving the best interests of the country by making such a blatant big for power.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
So yeah. Loggy actually did what Maric made him promise to, and served Ferelden, not the king.

So whatever Loghain thinks is right or necessary becomes right and neceassary?

Am I allowed to manipulate people, lie and kill so I get what I want, too? What qualifies Loghain to be above everyone and everything that he gets to decide the fate of his country without repercussions?

And why do you think any other possibility couldn't have led to a positive outcome, maybe an even better outcome?

What if Maric had known everything? What if he had decided to spare her, but sent her away as a reaction for the betrayal? What if he had grown and matured without Loghain's intervention? Maybe he had grown into someone different? Maybe he would have been a better father to Cailan, a better husband to Rowan? Maybe he would have decided differently about Alistair? To kill someone you loved because you are under the influence of a friend who has no qualms to use you and tries to mould you into what he think you should be?

Woah, no. Not the kind of person I would trust.

Modifié par klarabella, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:18 .

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Above the king's wife? In case you hadn't noticed, Anora is not just the king's wife, at his death, she's the queen, the monarch, and ruler of the country.

Popular fanon (and much more logical) is the idea Anora was the queen-consort only (something that fits her story about how she only could rule in Cailan's shadow). I see the time between Cailan's death and the Landsmeet as an interregnum.

Everything else just seems idiotic and only makes Anora look weak and incompetent. Why would she let her father rule, especially if she's not convinced he's doing the right thing?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

So whatever Loghain thinks is right or necessary becomes right and neceassary?

In this case, Loghain was right.

Am I allowed to manipulate people, lie and kill so I get what I want, too? What qualifies Loghain to be above everyone and everything that he gets to decide the fate of his country without repercussions?

Loghain did not lie, manipulate, ect, to get what he wanted. It was certainly not in Loghain's personal interest for Maric to kill Katriel, but it was for national interest that he do so. Ferelden's future was far more important than the ill-fated love-affair of a boy king. Even Maric agreed.

And why do you think any other possibility couldn't have led to a positive outcome, maybe an even better outcome?

What other realistic outcome? That Maric carry on Katriel, or simply banish her? I don't think so. Unless, of course, Ferelden independance is not as important as a boy king indulging himself at the expense of what's right.

What if Maric had known everything? What if he had decided to spare her, but sent her away as a reaction for the betrayal? What if he had grown and matured without Loghain's intervention? Maybe he had grown into someone different? Maybe he would have been a better father to Cailan, a better husband to Rowan? Maybe he would have decided differently about Alistair? To kill someone you loved because you are under the influence of a friend who has no qualms to use you and tries to mould you into what he think you should be?

Sent her away? Are you serious? In case you forgot, she was a treacherous spy for the enemy, whose betrayal cost the lives of hundreds at West Hill, and almost cost the rebellion. And yet, you think it would be a better chouice to send her away without punishment?

Now, what kind of message does that send? That treason is not really that serious a crime, so long as it's the king's lover that commits these crimes? It sends a message that the king is dangerously soft. Something Maric can't afford to be. It is standard practice by any monarch, would be or otherwise, the lay down the law and punish offenses against the crown. Not to "let them go". It sends the message that the king is soft on enemies of the rebellion, and by the standards of Ferelden, it makes him weak. The nobles will not follow a weak, sentimental king. Without the nobles and their armies, well....in that case, I'd suggest learning to speak Orlesian and find out what Meghren wants for Christmas.

Maric is the king, the only uniting force for a successful rebellion. What he might want personally is a moot point: he is the king, it is his duty to put the needs of Ferelden above his own. This includes behaving as a king should. Like...executing traitors? Even if he was nailing said traitor?

That Maric would have matured on his own, given time, is also moot. They don't have time. The rebellion can't wait for a boy king to "find himself" and frolick around with bimbos while he figures out if he wants to be king or not, negelcting his duty and putting the whole rebellion on hold.

And personally, without a swift kick to his posterior that Loghain delivered, Maric would not have "matured" or grown up. The fact that he even started the relationship with Katriel shows he was still mentally an adolescent being ruled by his loins and heart rather than head. Furthermore, he even considered marrying her and making her queen. Yeah. Brilliant idea. An Orlesian elf as future queen of a country that hates both elves and Orlesians. Not even adding the fact that she was a spy.

Woah, no. Not the kind of person I would trust.

If we are talking about boy-king Maric, then I'd agree. He'd be as disasterous a ruler as Cailan, or an unhardened Alistair.