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Mass Effect 2 syndrome.


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#276
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Basically what you're saying is BG/BG2/NWN Icewind Dale and the like had no right to exist and are terrible games. :?


No, I'm saying doing things the way they've always done for the sake of it is a pretty terrible justification in of itself. 

Also what I'm saying is that despite the fact Bioware has made lots of party-based cRPGs they are not obligated to continue to provide them, nor should any fans of theirs feel obligated to defend or endorse every feature ever presented in their games.



*translation* I enjoy dumbed down action rpg's and think Bioware should only make those because custiomization and traditional party based crpg's are stupid and too complicated.

Might not be your meaning but thats the jist I get. Considering 98% of the industry makes those types of games, I don't understand why Bioware needs to "ME TOO" it as well. Way to ****** all over the portion of the fanbase that actually enjoys a bit of complexity to their RPG's.

#277
nightcobra

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Basically what you're saying is BG/BG2/NWN Icewind Dale and the like had no right to exist and are terrible games. :?


No, I'm saying doing things the way they've always done for the sake of it is a pretty terrible justification in of itself. 

Also what I'm saying is that despite the fact Bioware has made lots of party-based cRPGs they are not obligated to continue to provide them, nor should any fans of theirs feel obligated to defend or endorse every feature ever presented in their games.



*translation* I enjoy dumbed down action rpg's and think Bioware should only make those because custiomization and traditional party based crpg's are stupid and too complicated.

Might not be your meaning but thats the jist I get. Considering 98% of the industry makes those types of games, I don't understand why Bioware needs to "ME TOO" it as well. Way to ****** all over the portion of the fanbase that actually enjoys a bit of complexity to their RPG's.


statement: you're walking on very thin ice meatbag.

#278
Guest_Guest12345_*

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Oh Sarah, you're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters on the BSN.



I used to avoid you like the bubons. Nowadays, I've learned to roll the windows down and drive real slow past the trainwrecks that are your posts.



Please, continue.

#279
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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scyphozoa wrote...

Oh Sarah, you're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters on the BSN.

I used to avoid you like the bubons. Nowadays, I've learned to roll the windows down and drive real slow past the trainwrecks that are your posts.

Please, continue.


I aim to please or something something. God forbid not all of us want streamlining and gutting. Oh gods I'm such a bad person for not just hoping on the bandwagon of Voice Overs and gutted game systems.

#280
upsettingshorts

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

*translation* I enjoy dumbed down action rpg's and think Bioware should only make those because custiomization and traditional party based crpg's are stupid and too complicated.


No, the aspect of the party I always enjoyed was the interaction with their personalities.  I never found it difficult to gear them out - not even when I was a 13 year old who had never heard of Dungeons and Dragons and playing Baldur's Gate for the first time.  

I do enjoy customization, and the amount of time I spend on the character generator screen in all games is completely absurd, not to mention the number of unskippable cutscenes I've had to endure until I got the toon I wanted.  I just don't enjoy the same customization options that you do.  Can you not fathom the person who shrugged at the two color options you could select for armor in Baldur's Gate?

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Might not be your meaning but thats the jist I get. Considering 98% of the industry makes those types of games, I don't understand why Bioware needs to "ME TOO" it as well. Way to ****** all over the portion of the fanbase that actually enjoys a bit of complexity to their RPG's.


To me there was never anything complex about inventory management of companions. 

I do not care what the industry does.  I care about endorsing features I like, criticizing ones I don't, and ignoring ones I don't care about.  Whether or not that coincides with tradition is - to me - irrelevant.

#281
StelemiLepisti

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BioWare banned me for creating this thread and many others, they are trying to hide something obviously......

#282
crimzontearz

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


I realize that, the thing is DA2 IS a  party based CRPG. With half of the traditional elements that make up a typical party based CPRG stripped out or streamlined to the point of ridiculousness in the first place. What I'm annoyed at is people like Maria who actively encourage that type of garbage like its a good thing.


Thats without even getting into the reduction of personal roleplaying one can do because of a set protagonist and voice overs that pretty much paint a specific flow when it comes to the player's responses. Yet another ME2 element that DA really didn't need.


I don't know what was so wrong with keeping DA, DA and keeping ME, ME. They sold about the same amount of copies, I highly doubt ME2'ing up DA2 is going to bring in a ton of more sales. DA:O stood fairly well on its own as a start of a series that was throwing a bone to folks who were waiting for another Bioware RPG along the lines of BG or NWN.  The idea of that particular design direction lasting a whole one game before being striped downed and streamlined and pushed out in 18 months leaves a pretty terrible taste in my mouth.




So Bioware wanted to shift more focus on Hawke because this is his story.


Was Planescape Torment any less of an RPG because of its lack of Party customizationcompared to BG? No, it was not. It was an AWESOME rpg with depth and tactics. Dragon age 2 still has stat based customization and buffs through items...it still has tactics and gameplay depth with different skill trees class specialization, skill enhancement andspecializations AND interpersonal buffs and tactics for God's sake....it only lacks full piece be piece customization which is replaced by single upgradeable and replaceable outfits




we already argued this Sarah, you really need to wait for the game to come out. Some design choices might not be your cup of tea but the game was not dumbed downas far as we know and given what we have seen. So if you want to express your dislike go ahead it is your right but you should not spread falsehood like that.

#283
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

*translation* I enjoy dumbed down action rpg's and think Bioware should only make those because custiomization and traditional party based crpg's are stupid and too complicated.


No, the aspect of the party I always enjoyed was the interaction with their personalities.  I never found it difficult to gear them out - not even when I was a 13 year old who had never heard of Dungeons and Dragons and playing Baldur's Gate for the first time.  

I do enjoy customization, and the amount of time I spend on the character generator screen in all games is completely absurd, not to mention the number of unskippable cutscenes I've had to endure until I got the toon I wanted.  I just don't enjoy the same customization options that you do.  Can you not fathom the person who shrugged at the two color options you could select for armor in Baldur's Gate?

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Might not be your meaning but thats the jist I get. Considering 98% of the industry makes those types of games, I don't understand why Bioware needs to "ME TOO" it as well. Way to ****** all over the portion of the fanbase that actually enjoys a bit of complexity to their RPG's.


To me there was never anything complex about inventory management of companions. 

I do not care what the industry does.  I care about endorsing features I like, criticizing ones I don't, and ignoring ones I don't care about.  Whether or not that coincides with tradition is - to me - irrelevant.


Fair enough Angry, though keep in mind some of us grew up on those "traditional" CPRG's and would like at least one developer to continue making them.

#284
upsettingshorts

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Fair enough Angry, though keep in mind some of us grew up on those "traditional" CPRG's and would like at least one developer to continue making them.


I grew up specifically on Bioware RPGs - when it comes to RPGs anyway - I never played Ultima and the first Elder Scrolls I touched was Morrowind.  

Keep in mind not everyone who has been playing Bioware games for a long time liked them for the same reasons you do.

#285
ErichHartmann

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*Attempts to remain neutral*



I do appreciate the unique companion outfits. Origins had too many generic pieces (especially leather armor). But, I am disappointed BioWare chose not to solve this dilemma by spending more time on creating more diverse armor/clothing that we are free to use on any companion.

#286
soteria

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UpsettingShorts wrote...
If you want to mock my position, a more accurate way would be to say "protagonist focused!" or something.


Oh, I'm not mocking your position--I'm actually sympathetic--I'm mocking your word choice, which strongly reminded me of historical statements made by various Arab nations vis-a-vis Israel.  I guess my attempt to avoid what might be seen as a political statement obscured the reference.

In any case, "Protagonist Focused!" doesn't make for a very good rallying chant for a bloodthirsty horde. Too many syllables. Maybe I should have gone with "Angry Pants! Angry Pants! Angry..." Hmm.

Modifié par soteria, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:15 .


#287
Maria Caliban

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Having a party based CRPG is just that, controling and outfitting an enitre "party", party being the key word. ME2 didn't have much of an upgrade system at all, and what was there was pretty terrible, what with the awful planet scanning mini game if you can even call it that,  for resources and lack of info regarding what research and upgrades actually do in terms of added damage and the like.

Otherwise you may as well be playing something like Fallout or Risen where you're just controling one character.
If people want to play action games, go play action games, do the rest of us a favor and stop encouraging Bioware to dumb their RPG's down for the masses/casual gamer. I think there's plenty of studios that do that already.


I like party-based RPGs but find them unsatisfying at times in computer games. I've played a number of PnP games like Dungeons and Dragons, Exalted, Star Trek, and GURPS Superheroes that all assume you play within a party.

When you're in a party where all the PCs are played by people, the dynamic is different. Everyone has their own interests and personality, my PC is not automatically the leader or the chosen one, and they pick their own role within the group and are smart enough to handle basic tactics, upgrades, and improving their own abilities. Even when I play a leader, I handle more top level elements while they retain quite a bit of autonomy.

We often coordinate during a fight but it's a collaborative effort.

Unfortunately, in computer games, companions are stupid. I once played a stripped down game of DnD with a young man, 15, who did not bother to read the player's handbook. His build was horrible. I had to redo his character sheet because he had managed to miscalculate or skip almost every value. He did not seem to understand why anyone would play this game, but was also oddly intense that everyone did what he said, no matter how illogical and not fitting with the game world.

Yet, when he found a trap in a hallway and then saw there were monsters beyond it, he didn't charge at the monsters, which is what Leliana does. He snuck up to the trap, disarmed it, and then waited for the heavily armored warrior to attack. During the battles, when it was his turn, he grasped that he needed to get behind the bad guys before attacking. Zevran, skilled and savvy assassin, does not get this.

At the end of the first game, he slit the throat of a goblin who was trying to sneak up on the party as they rested. The goblin had boots that added +2 to stealth. Not only was he jubilant at the find, but had anyone tried to take those boots, he would have screamed bloody murder.

I like party-based RPGs. I like the personality of the companions, their stories, and insights. I like the idea that my PC is part of a greater whole. But party-based combat in a cRPG is not 'role-playing' for me any more than controlling my Terrans in a Starcraft game is 'role-playing.' It might be fun, yes, but it's something I do because of a lack.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:18 .


#288
Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien

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ErichHartmann wrote...

*Attempts to remain neutral*



I do appreciate the unique companion outfits. Origins had too many generic pieces (especially leather armor). But, I am disappointed BioWare chose not to solve this dilemma by spending more time on creating more diverse armor/clothing that we are free to use on any companion.


So in other words you don't appreciate the unique outfits as you want to play 'dress up barbie' with all your companions instead of them having unique outfits. Your attempt at remaining neutral failed.

I'm happy with dictating what Hawke wears, I don't see the need to be 'dressing up' the others. If they feel comfortable in wearing what they are wearing in combat, thats fine by me.

Besides one slight flaw in DAO was with Morrigan. Dress her up in most the other outfits other than her own and it made talking to her at Arl Eamon's estate in Denerim laughably poor due to what she says at the start of every conversation with her there. Least we won't have that issue in DA2.

#289
ErichHartmann

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Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...


So in other words you don't appreciate the unique outfits as you want to play 'dress up barbie'
with all your companions instead of them having unique outfits. Your attempt at remaining neutral failed.

I'm happy with dictating what Hawke wears, I don't see the need to be 'dressing up' the others. If they feel comfortable in wearing what they are wearing in combat, thats fine by me.


Yes, insults make your argument more compelling. :o 
 

#290
Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien

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ErichHartmann wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...


So in other words you don't appreciate the unique outfits as you want to play 'dress up barbie'
with all your companions instead of them having unique outfits. Your attempt at remaining neutral failed.

I'm happy with dictating what Hawke wears, I don't see the need to be 'dressing up' the others. If they feel comfortable in wearing what they are wearing in combat, thats fine by me.


Yes, insults make your argument more compelling. :o 
 

You found that insulting? If so then I apologise, I was merely making an observation of what you said, because you started the post stating you liked the idea of them having unique items but then go on to say how you'd like there to be varied outfits that ALL your party members could wear, thus the outfits aren't unique are they. Thus you want to play 'dress up barbie' with your party rather than them being unique barbies.

#291
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Maria Caliban wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Having a party based CRPG is just that, controling and outfitting an enitre "party", party being the key word. ME2 didn't have much of an upgrade system at all, and what was there was pretty terrible, what with the awful planet scanning mini game if you can even call it that,  for resources and lack of info regarding what research and upgrades actually do in terms of added damage and the like.

Otherwise you may as well be playing something like Fallout or Risen where you're just controling one character.
If people want to play action games, go play action games, do the rest of us a favor and stop encouraging Bioware to dumb their RPG's down for the masses/casual gamer. I think there's plenty of studios that do that already.


I like party-based RPGs but find them unsatisfying at times in computer games. I've played a number of PnP games like Dungeons and Dragons, Exalted, Star Trek, and GURPS Superheroes that all assume you play within a party.

When you're in a party where all the PCs are played by people, the dynamic is different. Everyone has their own interests and personality, my PC is not automatically the leader or the chosen one, and they pick their own role within the group and are smart enough to handle basic tactics, upgrades, and improving their own abilities. Even when I play a leader, I handle more top level elements while they retain quite a bit of autonomy.

We often coordinate during a fight but it's a collaborative effort.

Unfortunately, in computer games, companions are stupid. I once played a stripped down game of DnD with a young man, 15, who did not bother to read the player's handbook. His build was horrible. I had to redo his character sheet because he had managed to miscalculate or skip almost every value. He did not seem to understand why anyone would play this game, but was also oddly intense that everyone did what he said, no matter how illogical and not fitting with the game world.

Yet, when he found a trap in a hallway and then saw there were monsters beyond it, he didn't charge at the monsters, which is what Leliana does. He snuck up to the trap, disarmed it, and then waited for the heavily armored warrior to attack. During the battles, when it was his turn, he grasped that he needed to get behind the bad guys before attacking. Zevran, skilled and savvy assassin, does not get this.

At the end of the first game, he slit the throat of a goblin who was trying to sneak up on the party as they rested. The goblin had boots that added +2 to stealth. Not only was he jubilant at the find, but had anyone tried to take those boots, he would have screamed bloody murder.

I like party-based RPGs. I like the personality of the companions, their stories, and insights. I like the idea that my PC is part of a greater whole. But party-based combat in a cRPG is not 'role-playing' for me any more than controlling my Terrans in a Starcraft game is 'role-playing.' It might be fun, yes, but it's something I do because of a lack.


Well rally for better AI or a better, deeper, tactics system. Rather than rally for the game to go the ME2 route of stripped down RPG mechanics. Because that doesn't even help the issues you're talking about here.

#292
Maria Caliban

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Well rally for better AI or a better, deeper, tactics system. Rather than rally for the game to go the ME2 route of stripped down RPG mechanics. Because that doesn't even help the issues you're talking about here.


I do that Sarah, but it doesn't annoy you, so I assume you ignore it.

For me, there is a minimum level of competency that I'd like to see in companions. Having me constantly sort through the inventory because Leliana is too dumb to realize that +3 dex boots are better than +2 dex boots wastes my time and is below that level of competency.

The upgrade system in ME 2 is superior because after you buy, find, or create an upgrade, your companions automatically apply it.

I don't see ME 2 as stripping down RPG mechanics as I don't see dressing others because they're not smart enough to do it themselves as an RPG mechanic. I see it as a flaw in cRPGs that some players have had to accommodate for so long, it's become an asset in their mind.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:45 .


#293
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Maria Caliban wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Well rally for better AI or a better, deeper, tactics system. Rather than rally for the game to go the ME2 route of stripped down RPG mechanics. Because that doesn't even help the issues you're talking about here.


I do that Sarah, but it doesn't annoy you, so I assume you ignore it.

For me, there is a minimum level of competency that I'd like to see in companions. Having me constantly sort through the inventory because Leliana is too dumb to realize that +3 dex boots are better than +2 dex boots wastes my time and is below that level of competency.

The upgrade system in ME 2 is superior because after you buy, find, or create an upgrade, your companions automatically apply it.

I don't see ME 2 as stripping down RPG mechanics as I don't see dressing others because they're not smart enough to do it themselves as an RPG mechanic. I see it as a flaw in cRPGs that some players have had to accommodate for so long, it's become an asset in their mind.


Active customization is an aspect yes not a flaw. . Some of us enjoy it and aren't annoyed or too lazy to swap out gear. ME2 has no armor upgrade system for companions at all, you're stuck from start til end watching Miranda in a skin tight **** outfit fight the entire game for example. Yet I'm supposed to believe this is a good thing because her looking like a ****, somehow "defines her personality"

What you're asking for isn't going to happen, because in some ways it defeats the whole point of controling a party. Like I suggested don't like controlling and making choices for mindless companions, play rpg's that aren't party based. Its really that simple.

#294
BeasBreakfast

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how do I go about getting the cerberus code if i lost it...I had the game before i was able to log on and my son lost the card that came in the case? any answers?

#295
Brockololly

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Maria Caliban wrote...
The upgrade system in ME 2 is superior because after you buy, find, or create an upgrade, your companions automatically apply it.


Somewhat related, but I hate upgrades like that which are just blanket upgrades with no drawbacks. It just makes things so boring as you quickly get overpowered. I'd love it if "upgrades" were more like Fallout style perks where they may boost something but they had some tangible drawback too. Such that you need to actually think for yourself about applying upgrades and not just think of them as an instant win. Maybe have some sort of almost Madden style "recommended play" option for those that don't want to bother with upgrades and inventory tinkering, but leave the manual option there as well.

In some respects the weapon upgrades were like that in ME2, as not all new weapons were technically across the board upgrades, but of course there was barely any way in the game to tell what exactly the weapons were doing.

Modifié par Brockololly, 28 décembre 2010 - 05:03 .


#296
Stinkface27

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Oh good, another "Dragon Effect" thread!

#297
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Brockololly wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
The upgrade system in ME 2 is superior because after you buy, find, or create an upgrade, your companions automatically apply it.


Somewhat related, but I hate upgrades like that which are just blanket upgrades with no drawbacks. It just makes things so boring as you quickly get overpowered. I'd love it if "upgrades" were more like Fallout style perks where they may boost something but they had some tangible drawback too. Such that you need to actually think yourself about applying upgrades and not just think of them as an instant win.

In some respects the weapon upgrades were like that in ME2, as not all new weapons were technically across the board upgrades, but of course there was barely any way in the game to tell what exactly the weapons were doing.




Agreed Brock, making it so the player actually has to decide on pros and possible cons of ugrades would be a big plus. And in some senses add a touch of replayability as well.

And you touch on my biggest pet peeve with ME2, lack of feedback on upgrades as to wtf they actually improve.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 28 décembre 2010 - 05:06 .


#298
tonnactus

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Maria Caliban wrote...


For me, there is a minimum level of competency that I'd like to see in companions. Having me constantly sort through the inventory because Leliana is too dumb to realize that +3 dex boots are better than +2 dex boots wastes my time and is below that level of competency.

The upgrade system in ME 2 is superior because after you buy, find, or create an upgrade, your companions automatically apply it.


Then why garrus is so dumb to equip a geth pulse rifle instead of the mattock or vindicator...

Modifié par tonnactus, 28 décembre 2010 - 05:06 .


#299
upsettingshorts

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Mass Effect 2 weapons are usually not direct upgrades though some are.

Maria is talking about these.

#300
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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tonnactus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...


For me, there is a minimum level of competency that I'd like to see in companions. Having me constantly sort through the inventory because Leliana is too dumb to realize that +3 dex boots are better than +2 dex boots wastes my time and is below that level of competency.

The upgrade system in ME 2 is superior because after you buy, find, or create an upgrade, your companions automatically apply it.


Then why garrus is so dumb to equip a geth pulse rifle instead of the mattock or vindicator...


Because the AI in ME2 is just as bad if not worse, but because they have a "distinct unique look" its ok.