495 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwnsaur]

mynameisdanza wrote...

I just don't understand why we can't have the best of both worlds. I like the idea of the outfits specific for each character, but why not be able to change them into regular armor if we don't like it? Is there no such thing as regular armor in DA2?

+1

This is what I would love to see also. Simple and well put, thank you

[In Exile]

Pwnsaur wrote...

So.... You don't want the AI to make decisions about their own armor, and you also don't want to be able to customize it yourself? Then who the hell is going to change it then? NO ONE. That's why were getting characters with outfits that DON'T CHANGE.

My ideal is that the designers change it, and in-game this manifest as the character picking a new outfit in a store, via a dialogue.

So for example Alistair would approach you, and say that there is this fancy piece of armour he wants. You can then buy it or not, and it may lead to a debate over it. That's how I would implement the feature.

Of course, I recognize not everyone would like this. So I suggested that we have custom armour that the player can choose, but that's locked in to class and character.

You are referring to elements of innovation as streamlining. Innovation is adding ease of use in the way you were speaking. Taking something and making it better through innovation creates the things you were talking about.

No, that's streamlining. That's how I have always seen the term used.

Streamlining in reference to consumable media is NOT innovation, it is the removal of resistance. The resistance of what you ask? The resistance of being consumed by customers. Anything that 'complicates' the gaming experience in the eyes of BW is a possible point of resistance to mass consumption. So, from my perspective, streamlining IS pejorative. C'mon man.. This is basic stuff..

So what you're telling me is that I'm not using words the way you use them, so I'm wrong? How is that simple? You expect me to be able to read your mind?

Unique items? You mean the one, MAYBE 2 outfits each companion will have to choose from throughout the entire playing experience? I don't know exactly what was going on with your characters, but each one of my characters looked COMPLETELY different. Warden had the superior drakeskin outfit, Alistair had blood dragon, Oghren had Legionaire, Sten had some huge evil armor of which I found only one, etc. It was plenty unique, and what's more, it was completely MY decision. 

All leather armour is identical - there are two models for it. There are only two models of massive armour - the kind Loghain wore and the dwarf model. There is one heavy armour model, and one medium armour model.

If you think a texture swap makes unique armour, that's your business. Leliana, Zevran and a Rogue PC end up at least 2/3 identical. Ogren, Sten, Alistair and Warrior PC also end up 2/3 identical. Unless you keep Morrigain in her unique item, her, Wynne and a Mage PC wind up with identical but gender swapped armour.

And also, who the hell is petitioning for all massive plate armor? That's not the issue and I don't even know where it came from. I only had 3 people in plate, most were in leather. 

Mad Cat is. You might be shocked, but you can reply to more than 1 person.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:29 .

[In Exile]

TheMadCat wrote...

I've hiked in the winter a few times, snow adds a certain amount of beauty to a moutain range that you don't get in the spring. Is cold as hell though and you do wear thick clothes when it becomes sub-freezing. 

When I hike I go climbing, and to be honest I've never felt comfortable enough to climb in winter.

Fair enough, though in case you haven't noticed I do like my equipement looking pratical.

I'm a stickler for realism, was hard enough to swallow Origins and it looks like 2 is going to be even harder. 

I can appreciate how you feel, but I'm just the opposite.

People and creature are flesh, blood, and bone. They have the same vital areas and are sensative to the same materials. Materials seems to funiction at an identical level to our world, physics seem to be identical. I think we could agree something like getting hit in the head by a sledge hammer in Thedas would have a very similar effect to getting hit int he ehad by a sledge hammer in our world, and thus you'd take the same necessary percautions to protect against that.

The problem is HP. HP introduces such reality breaking BS I cannot actually take armour seriously. I would appreciate in a game if the mechanic was realistic.

But so long as a character can take 10 blows to the chest and not even flinch, realism has already gone out the window.

[Iakus]

crimzontearz wrote...
dude...I'm all for cool static outfits but they have to make sense. Mass Effect specified why combatants wore armor and how that armor worked and then in ME2 we have outfits like Miranda's and Jack's that don't even change when they enter vacuum....no I'm sorry that's kinda laighable. There is no reason why static outfits can't be cool and make sense

Indeed.  Mass Effect 2 is in fact the entire reason why I'm worried about static outfits in DA2 .  The outfits have to make sense.  I'd rather have boriing outfits that made sense within the game world than gaudy outfits whose only purpose is to make the character stand out.

Cool and sensible is the best of both worlds of course.

[Big Blue Car]

You'd rather have boring outfits that make sense in the game world? Then we disagree.



If I want hard realism I'll read about the roman empire, if I want characters I give a **** about I'll play a AAA RPG.

[crimzontearz]

no, as I said you CAN have cool outfits that make sense. Look at Liara's light armor in LOTSB or Thane's alternative look (where his chest is armored too)



cool and "makes sense" are not mutually exclusive

[SultryVulcan]

iakus wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
dude...I'm all for cool static outfits but they have to make sense. Mass Effect specified why combatants wore armor and how that armor worked and then in ME2 we have outfits like Miranda's and Jack's that don't even change when they enter vacuum....no I'm sorry that's kinda laighable. There is no reason why static outfits can't be cool and make sense

Indeed.  Mass Effect 2 is in fact the entire reason why I'm worried about static outfits in DA2 .  The outfits have to make sense.  I'd rather have boriing outfits that made sense within the game world than gaudy outfits whose only purpose is to make the character stand out.

Cool and sensible is the best of both worlds of course.

Yeah...those pesky biotic abilities always make sense. I've found that biotic forcefields are superior to those bulky vacuum suits.

[Big Blue Car]

crimzontearz wrote...

no, as I said you CAN have cool outfits that make sense. Look at Liara's light armor in LOTSB or Thane's alternative look (where his chest is armored too)

cool and "makes sense" are not mutually exclusive

90% of the ME2 outfits were cool, added to the characters and made sense for the universe. Which did you find objectionable?

[Pwnsaur]

Haha, okay... No, I am not saying because you are not using a word in the same way that I do, that you are wrong. I am saying because you use the word INCORRECTLY you are wrong. Streamlining, IS, without argument, an idea of removing resistance. REMOVING. It actually has it's origins in describing a path conducive to the flow of liquid. That's literally why it had been adopted to describe 'watering down'. Not 'making better.'  That, is INNOVATION. I could care less how you 'see' it being used by others.. I am only interested in the fundamental definition of the word and it's implementation into our current subject being accurate. It's not my fault that you take your literary cues from the context in which your peers use them. If you want, I won't call it streamlining. I'll call it Bacon Bits. My opinion remains valid, and my opinion is that removing the ability to change your companions outfits is a technique of Bacon Bits. Bacon Bits, as I define it, is watering down a product to create a simpler gaming experience and thusly making more money through the consumption of your product by a more casual fan base.

I am part of the core demographic and I want the most rich, robust, and fully fleshed out gaming experience that I can get. I consider (for me) the ability to change outfits as I see fit to be more closely aligned with that ideal. That's all I will say on the matter. Give us more choices, not less.

Modifié par Pwnsaur, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:56 .

[Iakus]

Big Blue Car wrote...

You'd rather have boring outfits that make sense in the game world? Then we disagree.

If I want hard realism I'll read about the roman empire, if I want characters I give a **** about I'll play a AAA RPG.

Cool and sensible is the best of both worlds of course.

Guess we'll have to disagree then.  Though I do look to features beyond clothing to decide whether I give a "****"  about characters I do admit that if they dress like comic book superheroes or otherwise with "style over substance" it leads to a poor first impression. 

That's why I was really glad I could get Ashley out of the white-and-pink space marine armor.  And why I wished I could convince Jacob that spandex isn't bulletproof.  Here's hoping there's nothing I'll find really awful about the DA2 characters

[crimzontearz]

Miranda's, Jack's and Samara for starters.



and please sultury vulcan do not give me the BS about Biotics because Biotics can be inhibited in universe by some tech abilities that screw with the amps and biotics do not work if a character is unconscious which makes Jack's, Mirandais and Samara's unsealed uniforms pretty ridiculous. Also biotic Shields can be dropped at any time by enemy fire....



Garrus was perfect, Grunt's was acceptable, Thane's secondary was perfect, Mordin's was perfect, Kasumi's was acceptable, Zaeed was good aside for the unsealed bits, Tali of courde was good to go, Jacob was...meh I never understood if it was armor he was wearing or cloth.



Breathers were ridiculous

[Piecake]

Pwnsaur wrote...

Haha, okay... No, I am not saying because you are not using a word in the same way that I do, that you are wrong. I am saying because you use the word INCORRECTLY you are wrong. Streamlining, IS, without argument, an idea of removing resistance. REMOVING. Not 'making better.' That, is INNOVATION.

http://www.thefreedi...om/streamlining

[Pwnsaur]

From "http://www.thefreedi...m/streamlining"



"To construct or design in a form that offers the least resistance to fluid flow."

"A contour of a body constructed so as to offer minimum resistance to a fluid flow."

"To simplify."

"a contour on a body that offers the minimum resistance to a gas or liquid flowing around it"



Your point Piecake?

[Jzadek72]

TJPags wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

TJPags wrote...

She may be dressed well for swashbuckling, but, you know, we're not on a ship.  Is it so hard to imagine her putting on pants and a leather vest (sort of like she wore in DAO)?  Or is that too un-pirate-like?

She wore leather armor when she appeared in Origins, which didn't include pants, either. She had a leather kilt like everybody else who wears leather armor.

Further, swashbuckling has nothing to do with being on a ship.

See, she already has some leather armor.  Did she forget it in Denerim or something? 

I don't care about the swashbuckling semantics.  She knew how to wear armor once.  Is her thong so magical that she doesn't need it anymore?

She had red hair too, and looked uninspired, being a glorified learning manual. They're making her a companion, so she'll be designed to look good.

[In Exile]

Pwnsaur wrote...

Haha, okay... No, I am not saying because you are not using a word in the same way that I do, that you are wrong. I am saying because you use the word INCORRECTLY you are wrong. Streamlining, IS, without argument, an idea of removing resistance. REMOVING. It actually has it's origins in describing a path conducive to the flow of liquid. That's literally why it had been adopted to describe 'watering down'. Not 'making better.'  That, is INNOVATION. I could care less how you 'see' it being used by others.. I am only interested in the fundamental definition of the word and it's implementation into our current subject being accurate.

Streamlining, again, has the following definition:

• To improve the appearance or efficiency of; modernize.
• To organize.
• To simplify.

I am aware of what it means re: fluid dynamics. I am also aware of how it is used in terms of UI design. In this case, the example I gave improves the apperance and efficiency of design.

ETA:

From piecake's link:

streamlineverb rationalize, restructure, reorganize, modernize, bring
up to date, make more efficient They're
making efforts to streamline their bureaucracy.

It even gives you an example.

It's not my fault that you take your literary cues from the context in which your peers use them. If you want, I won't call it streamlining. 

I take it you're no aware how a dictionary works. In fact, this is precisely how a dictionary revises definitions. It looks at the popular use for a particular term and then incorporates it. A dictionary is does not define what a word means, it gives you a list of known uses.

I am part of the core demographic and I want the most rich, robust, and fully fleshed out gaming experience that I can get. I consider (for me) the ability to change outfits as I see fit to be more closely aligned with that ideal. That's all I will say on the matter. Give us more choices, not less.

Just what precisely is the "core demographic" and why are you a part of it any more than I am?

Modifié par In Exile, 28 décembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[Piecake]

Pwnsaur wrote...

From "http://www.thefreedictionary.com/streamlining"

"To construct or design in a form that offers the least resistance to fluid flow."
"A contour of a body constructed so as to offer minimum resistance to a fluid flow."
"To simplify."
"a contour on a body that offers the minimum resistance to a gas or liquid flowing around it"

Your point Piecake?

I find it humorous that you removed these definitions since they are the most relevant to our discusions

2. To improve the appearance or efficiency of; modernize.3. a. To organize.b. To simplify.

The definition you are using is only really used in terms of designing cars and airplanes.  Everything else uses definition 2 and 3, and since Dragon Age 2 isnt a car or an airplane, we use definition 2 and 3

[Big Blue Car]

crimzontearz wrote...

Miranda's, Jack's and Samara for starters.

...

Breathers were ridiculous

Miranda was obsessed with being a genetic creation; her way of dealing with that was to outwardly embrace it and exploit it. Her costume fits that perfectly; it shows off her figure. It could easily have kinetic shields and a hardened skin weave, and in any case Miranda is a light skirmisher who fights smart, not a meat-shield grunt like Ashley. Her costume makes perfect sense for her and ultimately highlights her insecurities as a character.

Jack has a suicidal streak or at least severe nihilism, she likely isn't concerned about personal protection. Plus heavy armour in her mind is associated with her abusers and professional militaries, the traits of which she will likely reject in any way. Her method of fighting is all out offence, so moving quickly helps more than protection. And it show off her tats, a big part of her character. It's also implied to me that she has some biotic protection not presented for balance reasons.

Edit; both these characters had extremely memorable looks, besides making sense in the universe they were great designs. If the DA2 characters have costumes as well conceived as those I'll be happy.

I agree about Samara. I never felt that her costume illuminated her character in any meaningful way.

The breathing gear was meh, I'd have preferred it if they have a proper sealed suit but all those missions take place in atmosphere so it's no big deal to me.

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 28 décembre 2010 - 01:21 .

[Schneidend]

TJPags wrote...

See, she already has some leather armor.  Did she forget it in Denerim or something? 

I don't care about the swashbuckling semantics.  She knew how to wear armor once.  Is her thong so magical that she doesn't need it anymore?

She was just another NPC in a game that used the same sliders and equipment for every other character in the game. The aesthetic of Dragon Age 2 is different, and so Isabela has changed as well.

If you don't like her lack of armor simply don't use her as companion.

[TJPags]

Jzadek72 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

TJPags wrote...

She may be dressed well for swashbuckling, but, you know, we're not on a ship.  Is it so hard to imagine her putting on pants and a leather vest (sort of like she wore in DAO)?  Or is that too un-pirate-like?

She wore leather armor when she appeared in Origins, which didn't include pants, either. She had a leather kilt like everybody else who wears leather armor.

Further, swashbuckling has nothing to do with being on a ship.

See, she already has some leather armor.  Did she forget it in Denerim or something? 

I don't care about the swashbuckling semantics.  She knew how to wear armor once.  Is her thong so magical that she doesn't need it anymore?

She had red hair too, and looked uninspired, being a glorified learning manual. They're making her a companion, so she'll be designed to look good.

Well, whether she looks good is subjective, and I don't want to go there.

But - she can't look good in leather armor?  It has to be thigh high boots, a dress with a slit to her hips, and a thong?

[slimgrin]

I kinda like trickin' out my party too, but at least their outfits change over the years, and I think we can customize them a little bit. Let's be honest, the visual aspect of armor customization in DA was halfhearted. It's just not what the folks at Bioware want to do, so maybe it's best they avoid it.

Modifié par slimgrin, 28 décembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Pwnsaur]

I can't believe I've managed to get myself into a debate on semantics with my very first post on this forum. It's wonderful that you guys value one part of the definition on the website more than the other. Truly. I am happy that you guys have completely ignored the first, the FIRST definition on that site. Very astute. Your debating tactics are impeccable, really they are... It's so wonderful that off the top of your head you just so happen to have written a thesis on the term streamlining and it's relation to the design characteristics of a User Interface in a story driven role playing game. We can agree to disagree on the application of the word streamlining being accurately depicted by one person or the other. Okay? Jesus christ.. Personally I find it more telling that you had to subjectively rely on an internet dictionary and I just basically quoted the definition from memory.. aaaannnywayss

I will reiterate my longstanding and yet constantly overlooked statement being;

Whatever YOU call it, I call it watering down. As in.. Oh...I don't know..a body of water eroding resistance along a path to financial compensation? Something like that..

[crimzontearz]

I disagree Big Blue Car.



Jack was a survivor. She killed before being killed' a good way not to be killed is to wear goddamn armor. Even if that was not so there are plenty of missions where the atmosphere is not just toxic but even caustic and she strolls around happily with a nipple belt. Take Tali's recruitment. Heatstrom's sun is powerful enough to literally FRY the chitinik carapace of a giant bug but she ventures our bare chested...ok, she has shields....which as I said can be taken down or downright sabotaged leavind her to become a tattooed piece of bbq ribs.



Miranda may have had daddy-made-me-too-perfect issues but she is first and foremost a soldier and an operative. I dare you to go to a marine regardless of their role and tell them to take off their vest in open field. Let me know how that goes



Take Liara's light armor, it's functional, underlines her role as a Biotic supporter as opposed to a meatshield, is sexy and enhances her curves as she has finally weened herself from her naivete....and it does not look ridiculous

[Pwnsaur]

BTW.... No more.... No more fighting.. pls.. I want to customize and you don't. Let's just leave it..

[wwwwowwww]

Why does this all seem so vaguely familiar?????????????????

[Dave of Canada]

mynameisdanza wrote...

I just don't understand why we can't have the best of both worlds. I like the idea of the outfits specific for each character, but why not be able to change them into regular armor if we don't like it? Is there no such thing as regular armor in DA2?

Because with the static outfits, they created a unique body for the character and can create unique animations for the character. Said "regular" armor wouldn't work with this because armor replaces the body model. All unique changes in the character will be changed and the animations won't play out as well.

It's like the Morrigan-changing robe problem in Origins but given to every companion in DA2.