499 réponses à ce sujet

[Cypher0020]

Going through my elf mage run, and I got to wondering....Alistair is an ex-templar, and Cullen's ok.... the templar inside the lothering chantry isn't that bad... and Gregory and Irving have that love/hate relationship....


it does suck to be in that tower all the time.... but lets look at examples like Jowan....blood magic.....imagine an army of blood mages.... or heaven help us.... abominations run amok in Ferelden.....Uthur 50x worse....

I was thinking of making my mage's request allow them to study w/o chantry supervision.... and while I don't agree with all the rules, you can't help but think.... life would probably be worse without them, no?


Will pique my interesting when I get enough money to preorder DA2.... since I heard the chantry, mages, and everyything will play into it... especially if you can be an apostate...

[Sarah1281]

Individual templars might be fine but they were planning on making Jowan a tranquil when they didn't even really believe he was a blood mage, they were planning on annulling the circle and everyone inside without even looking at the situation, and they force tranquility on anyone who does not wish to undertake the Harrowing. Hell, the Harrowing itself! The apprentices manage to not get possessed very well and no amount of training will convince a mage who wants to not to make a deal with a demon so what exactly is the point of that? Some fail and are killed and for what? They probably never would have been possessed otherwise.



What about the fact that Uldred and the others only rebelled because they are dragged from their families the minute they are discovered to be magical and only allowed to leave for an express purpose once their Harrowing is complete. What about the fact that apostates are killed for being 'maleficar' regardless of if they actually are one? What about what happened with Aneirin? He was only fourteen or so. What about the fact that templars can render mages absolutely helpless and sometimes they do abuse their prisoners, particularly female ones?



What about the fact that the Tevinter has far less restrictions on mages and we don't hear anything about out-of-control possessions? And Cullen's really not the best example, you know, since he often ends up going crazy and kills every mage he sees.

[Bigdoser]

I don't blame the templars i blame the chantry they are the ones that make people templars and fill them up with yummy chantry doctrine.

[Sarah1281]

Well, it doesn't really matter who is at fault. If the Chantry is the reason why templars snap and go on a mage-killing spree like Cullen or apostates live in fear of being raped and/or killed once they are caught then it really IS that bad.

[Bigdoser]

Honestly once a mage finishes the harrowing they should be free to leave the tower and have a badge showing they are a official mage. They should keep the blood jar(forgot what it is called) and the templars around for police just in case something happens that would be a lot better imo.

[sylvanaerie]

Yea because what happened with Connor in Redcliffe is so much better than sending the boy to the Circle to be trained how NOT to give in to demons.



Seriously, I view templars as a 'necessary evil'. Being human they aren't perfect but the alternative isn't much better. As for those few mages in the tower, they aren't the majority of the population and if restricting their freedoms keeps the general populace (who certainly can't stand against a mage/abomination gone amuck) safe, then so be it. It is regrettable what they wanted to do to Jowan but considering the mess he made of everyone's lives around him, killing him may have been a greater mercy.



As for never hearing anything about Tevinter mages going amuck, we really don't have that much information from that corner of Thedas. Perhaps DA2 may give us more info and other alternatives to the Circles.



The mage origin is full of suck (perhaps that is why I love it so much). And becoming a Grey Warden with all its attendent woes is still preferable to a life trapped in the tower, but it is hardly a bed of roses either.

[Raelis25]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Individual templars might be fine but they were planning on making Jowan a tranquil when they didn't even really believe he was a blood mage, they were planning on annulling the circle and everyone inside without even looking at the situation, and they force tranquility on anyone who does not wish to undertake the Harrowing. Hell, the Harrowing itself! The apprentices manage to not get possessed very well and no amount of training will convince a mage who wants to not to make a deal with a demon so what exactly is the point of that? Some fail and are killed and for what? They probably never would have been possessed otherwise.

What about the fact that Uldred and the others only rebelled because they are dragged from their families the minute they are discovered to be magical and only allowed to leave for an express purpose once their Harrowing is complete. What about the fact that apostates are killed for being 'maleficar' regardless of if they actually are one? What about what happened with Aneirin? He was only fourteen or so. What about the fact that templars can render mages absolutely helpless and sometimes they do abuse their prisoners, particularly female ones?

What about the fact that the Tevinter has far less restrictions on mages and we don't hear anything about out-of-control possessions? And Cullen's really not the best example, you know, since he often ends up going crazy and kills every mage he sees.

All this is the reason why I don't hate Isolde like everyone else seems to. Sure, she's a nasty piece of work, and she is callous and selfish, but I cannot honestly blame her for not wanting to give her son up for this. She had no way of knowing that her decision to spare her son that terrible fate would backfire so spectacularly, and I cannot help but sympathize with her, **** though she is.

I don't think all templars are bad (some of them didn't have a choice, just like mages, and the fact that they are made lyrium addicts is truly chilling), but I think terrible what mages are forced to go through. I can't really blame apostates for giving the Chantry the finger.

Modifié par Raelis25, 27 décembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[Sarah1281]

[quote]sylvanaerie wrote...

Yea because what happened with Connor in Redcliffe is so much better than sending the boy to the Circle to be trained how NOT to give in to demons. [/quote] No one's saying anything about not giving mages adequate instruction. And, you know, had Isolde done that he would have been caught in the blood mage rebellion and maybe possessed there. Those were both freak occurences.


[quote]Seriously, I view templars as a 'necessary evil'. Being human they aren't perfect but the alternative isn't much better. As for those few mages in the tower, they aren't the majority of the population and if restricting their freedoms keeps the general populace (who certainly can't stand against a mage/abomination gone amuck) safe, then so be it.  [/quote]But we don't know that it IS necessary to take small children away from their homes forever and lock them in a Tower until they are shown that they can resist a forcible demon possession they are warned about in advance. Training them is but the templars often go overboard and keep even perfectly certified 'safe' mages like Wynne locked up unless someone specifically needs them for something and lets them out for a short while before it's right back to the Tower.


[quote]As for never hearing anything about Tevinter mages going amuck, we really don't have that much information from that corner of Thedas. Perhaps DA2 may give us more info and other alternatives to the Circles. [/quote]True but given how much the Chantry hates the Black Divine, if they were a nation regularly terrorized by abominations, I would think that the Chantry would freely share this information as proof of why listening to them is so essential. 
[/quote]

[TJPags]

Nah, Templars are fine in my book.

They take poor little children from their parents?  Yup - after they start showing magical powers, which need to be trained.  The option, of course, is to leave them like Connor - in the hands/training of a bumbling fool.  Or completely untrained.  Either way, clearly a danger to those around them.

They keep them locked up?  Yup - after all, how many blood mages did we run into in Origins?  I recall at least 2 separate batches - one group in the Brecilian Forest, one group in a house in the Denerim slums.  And lets' not forget how well Uldred did when conjuring demonic assistance.  Or Sophia's buddy (Avernus?).

So, sure, let's all let them run wild, untrained children being taught who knows what by who knows who, arrogant people who think they are proof against anything and can control or handle anything they come across.

Sounds good to me.

[Sarah1281]

They keep them locked up? Yup - after all, how many blood mages did we run into in Origins? I recall at least 2 separate batches - one group in the Brecilian Forest, one group in a house in the Denerim slums. And lets' not forget how well Uldred did when conjuring demonic assistance. Or Sophia's buddy (Avernus?).

And you don't think the oppressive life they're trapped in and the fact that blood magic is the only way they can stand a chance against templars contributes in any way to their decision to turn to blood magic? It was the reason for Uldred's revolt.

So, sure, let's all let them run wild, untrained children being taught who knows what by who knows who, arrogant people who think they are proof against anything and can control or handle anything they come across.

Right, because that's EXACTLY what has been said here. Training can happen without all mages being kidnapped from a young age and raised in isolation with very if any opportunities to ever leave. It can happen without the abuses of templars. And even those that believe templars are a 'necessary evil' hopefully see that there are definite abuses that need to be corrected.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

They keep them locked up? Yup - after all, how many blood mages did we run into in Origins? I recall at least 2 separate batches - one group in the Brecilian Forest, one group in a house in the Denerim slums. And lets' not forget how well Uldred did when conjuring demonic assistance. Or Sophia's buddy (Avernus?).

And you don't think the oppressive life they're trapped in and the fact that blood magic is the only way they can stand a chance against templars contributes in any way to their decision to turn to blood magic? It was the reason for Uldred's revolt.

Right, because summoning demons is a great way to show people who keep you locked up for fear you may summon demons is the way to go.  Uldred was an idiot, and look what he did in a tower FULL of mages and Templars -  Killed a whole bunch, forcibly possessed another bunch.  Exactly the kind of guy I want loose in the world.

Sarah1281 wrote...

So, sure, let's all let them run wild, untrained children being taught who knows what by who knows who, arrogant people who think they are proof against anything and can control or handle anything they come across.

Right, because that's EXACTLY what has been said here. Training can happen without all mages being kidnapped from a young age and raised in isolation with very if any opportunities to ever leave. It can happen without the abuses of templars. And even those that believe templars are a 'necessary evil' hopefully see that there are definite abuses that need to be corrected.

Training can happen, sure - but by whom?  Someone like Jowan, half trained himself?  Isn't it better to have standardized training?

Is there evidence of abuses?  I don't recall any such talk - but then, my memory is shot.  And if there is abuse, is it allowed, or are those people punished?  I remember one Templar we come across who was being punished for unaccepted behavior - might be the guy trapped with the Desire Demon, not sure right now.

I think what you and I are arguing, Sarah, is the need to keep them locked up.  I don't think you really disagree with using the Tower for training purposes (of course, I could be wrong).  I'd be okay with some more freedom for them, but I do think there's need to keep an eye on them..

[sylvanaerie]

Wynne mentions it as rumors of templars abusing apostates. As far as I know there ARE no scenes in the game where templars rape and torture the mages. I never said the system was perfect but just who are you gonna get to teach these children? And how will you make them stay in one place and learn and NOT run off somewhere? Esp if they end up possessed.

[Addai]

Anytime you have an agency that uses force to subdue others, there are going to be all the human vices in play- greed, lust, ambition, envy, corruption, incompetence. But as the OP points out, some templars try to use their authority to do some good. The Chantry is not a completely evil organization and neither are the templars which are basically its enforcement wing. In fact, since they are often brainwashed from childhood and then fed lyrium which ends up creating dependency, they are the victims of the system, too.

[BelgarathMTH]

Like in any religious or police or military occupation, some Templars are saints and some are fanatics. Some are good cops, and some are corrupt. Some are defenders of nations, and some are hired killers who do what they do for the sheer pleasure of it.

I must weigh in on the opposite side of most of the opinions expressed so far, and I do so as someone who always plays a Circle Mage.

Connor's story ought to teach anyone with half a brain why the Circle is necessary, and why mage training must start in childhood.

Given the nature of the Fade and the nature of demons, any untrained child almost certainly WILL give in to the temptation to dominate others through magic. Don't you guys remember being children and the kinds of fantasies of power over others you entertained? The dispelling of the illusion of omnipotence is one of the cornerstones of healthy psychological development of any human being. Imagine a child in that psychological stage, who through magic actually HAS some semblance of omnipotence compared to everyone around him/her.

It would be like that Twighlight Zone episode where the magical boy terrorizes and controls a whole town, and eventually turns his father into a jack-in-the-box. Chilling, and horrible. If a child has that kind of power over others, the demons will come. They ALWAYS come.

This is one of the reasons why I am a Loyalist. In youth, I would have been very tempted by the Separatists and all their romantic, idealistic notions of individual freedom and erotic love. But as a mature adult experienced with life, I know that the Circle and the Templars have the right of it. Who among you would enjoy being dominated by a superpowerful child with no one able to control or discipline him/her? Once again I say, that would be the stuff of a horror movie.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 27 décembre 2010 - 11:48 .

[ejoslin]

hmmmm, Wynne was found out to be a mage when she set a child on fire. Untrained mages are pretty dangerous.

[Reika]

I don't think anyone is saying mages shouldn't be trained. They absolutely do need training.



However some (including myself) object to how the mages are treated. They're ripped from their families, essentially imprisoned all their lives (a rare few are allowed out), not allowed to get married (I know of only two, both men, it's possible there maybe more, but you don't hear about them), not allowed to keep their children should a female mage get pregnant. They're treated as if they're the most horrendous criminals in existence.



And their crime? Being born a mage.



Yes, they do need training, but in all honesty I'm sure there's a much more humane way of training them than locking them up in some cold stone tower.



I've known corrections officers, some of the more chilling stories I've heard from them is what the guards do to the prisoners. And those are people who knowingly broke the law. I shudder to think of what brainwashed, drug addicted guards would be like.



Sure, some like Greagoir might be decent people, but he was awfully quick to toss away the lives without doing his supposed job of protecting mages.



As for Uldred, I don't agree with what he did, but I understand where he was coming from. And yes, Connor is the perfect example of why mages need training. And I can see where Isolde is coming from, but any sympathy with her was lost with her callous disregard of what her actions did to Redcliffe.



...And I'm getting off my soapbox now.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

It's an unfortunate expression but I like to think of Templars as a 'necessary evil'. A powerful mage turned into an abomination is a threat that cannot be allowed to exist -- Uldred exemplifies this notion to me. Do I think that the Circle via the Templars via the Chantry could be run in a more socially acceptable manner? Yes. Do I think that it should be run in a more socially acceptable manner? Yes.

Unfortunately you are relying on facts not in evidence.  The chantry wants you to believe that any unsupervised (by them) mage growing up will automatically turn into an abomination and/or blood demon.

Funny though how little evidence there is of this.  If what the chantry suggests is true, then there should be regular reports of abominations within the Dalish.  Nope not a one (except maybe Zathrien and he's very dissimiliar to your garden variety abomination).  For that matter Tevinter which permits and even sanctions blood-mage, let alone ancient Tevinter should have been rife with abominations. 

No evidence of any of that.  Heck even the Dragon Cultists and other Apostate orders should have abomination issues, but there is no evidence for that either (blood magic yes, abomination no).

Based on this, the reasonable conclusion seems to be that under normal circumstances it's HARD for a demon to possess even a mage unless that mage wants to "let it in" usually in exchange for something that mage wants (this was how Conner got into trouble).  Otherwise, it seems reasonable to think that the Chantry grossly overhypes the dangers of abominations and blood magic (even to their own Templar followers) as an excuse to have a drug-addicted private army and an excuse to persecute mages and magic of all kinds.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Connor's story ought to teach anyone with half a brain why the Circle is necessary, and why mage training must start in childhood.

Given the nature of the Fade and the nature of demons, any untrained child almost certainly WILL give in to the temptation to dominate others through magic. Don't you guys remember being children and the kinds of fantasies of power over others you entertained? The dispelling of the illusion of omnipotence is one of the cornerstones of healthy psychological development of any human being. Imagine a child in that psychological stage, who through magic actually HAS some semblance of omnipotence compared to everyone around him/her. 

I dissent.  At best you have shown (as does Wynne's story) that from a young age, mages need guidance and training.  I don't really disagree, but there is no evidence that this has to be done as though it's a medium to high security prison.  Indeed, near as I can tell given the difference in incidents within the Tower (where annulment occures about once a generation...i.e. a fairly frequent occurance) and outside with the Dalish (to name one), I strongly suspect that the very environment of the circle is creating much of the problem.

Certainly in DAO, it was the Chantry's brain-dead attitude towards magic and bloodmagic in particular that created the whole mess, giving the Libetarian rebels the perfect weapon to use against mages and templars both that could not be countered AND inspiring powerful negative emotions of want and need as well.  In combination, you might as well set up a big sign in the Fade for Demons saying, "Eat at Joes" or in this case the Circle Tower.

-Polaris

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

hmmmm, Wynne was found out to be a mage when she set a child on fire. Untrained mages are pretty dangerous.

She was an orphan and defending herself.  I do think that there should be places for mages to get training, and places specifically for orphaned or "problem" mages, but I don't see why it has to be on top-security lockdown.  IMO mages should be allowed to live with their families and go to special schools, and only be locked away if they prove criminally dangerous.  Unfortunately, it would probably take a few generations before you'd overcome the prejudice of the community on the one hand, and the fear of ostracism and repurcussions on the other that would keep mages underground.

The system as it is is not only inhumane, it just focuses the problem by providing a breeding ground for abominations.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[Sarah1281]

Given the nature of the Fade and the nature of demons, any untrained child almost certainly WILL give in to the temptation to dominate others through magic. Don't you guys remember being children and the kinds of fantasies of power over others you entertained? The dispelling of the illusion of omnipotence is one of the cornerstones of healthy psychological development of any human being. Imagine a child in that psychological stage, who through magic actually HAS some semblance of omnipotence compared to everyone around him/her.

Proof of this? In addition to the fact that people keep missing about EVERYONE AGREEING SOME TRAINING IS NECESSARY, they won't know HOW to dominate others without some form of training and being dominated over is not the only remedy to this problem you see.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

hmmmm, Wynne was found out to be a mage when she set a child on fire. Untrained mages are pretty dangerous.

She was an orphan and defending herself.  I do think that there should be places for mages to get training, and places specifically for orphaned or "problem" mages, but I don't see why it has to be on top-security lockdown.  IMO mages should be allowed to live with their families and go to special schools, and only be locked away if they prove criminally dangerous.  Unfortunately, it would probably take a few generations before you'd overcome the prejudice of the community on the one hand, and the fear of ostracism and repurcussions on the other that would keep mages underground.

The system as it is is not only inhumane, it just focuses the problem by providing a breeding ground for abominations.

I'm not so sure it's the equivelant of a maximum security prison.  A prison, perhaps.  I don't see mages being kept in solitary, I don't see torture devices, I don't really see anything bad.

I see a communal setting where people can be around others with their own gifts.  Sure, the ones who backed Uldred didn't seem to like it, but those seemed to be the ones who wanted to practice blood magic.  Which is, you know, forbidden.  So, can they really be trusted?

[Dave of Canada]

When a lone child abomination is enough to cause the destruction of an entire castle filled with guards and the village, you've got to realize that the templars are just trying to protect the people.

You see groups of mages out there (as mentioned above) without abominations but if they do become one, who sufers from it? The commonfolk, the abomination would slaughter civilians and raze villages before anything can be done about it. A lone guard is (most likely) no match to the demon's magics and you have to rely on the templar's anti-magic training to deal with them.

What if there's none around? What if the demon "controls" the people? What if the demon makes more people possessed? You'd have a minor army ready to destroy a lot before any sense of defense could build up.

The Circle is a heavy risk, as proven in the Broken Circle questline where demons took over all the mages and took over the templar but only the Chantry and the Circle suffered for this. A defense was able to be mobilized (the Rite) and was on-route to deal with the problem before it hurt the people.

Though I find their cruelty and brutal judgment on the mages harsh, that's more the problem of an individual than the organization as a whole and if they were all more lenient than the mages would abuse it to get their way.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:50 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

By and large, the Templars are a means to control mages. Whether or not individual Templars are good/bad/apathetic people is the same deal as anyone else in the world.

Are Templars necessary?

There must have been methods to protect from demon possession in the past (read: Tevinter still in power), but the fact is that the Chantry (and most non-mages, I imagine) don't want to return to the days when mages ruled. Mages are enormously powerful, and seeing one wander around in Thedas is probably akin to one of us seeing a random guy wandering our streets with a semi-automatic in hand. They *have* the power to gun people down at will, if they want to.

Templars are seen as the alternative to letting mages govern themselves. Neither system is perfect, but which has the least potential for harming the population at large?

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 28 décembre 2010 - 01:05 .

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

I'm not so sure it's the equivelant of a maximum security prison.  A prison, perhaps.  I don't see mages being kept in solitary, I don't see torture devices, I don't really see anything bad.

I see a communal setting where people can be around others with their own gifts.  Sure, the ones who backed Uldred didn't seem to like it, but those seemed to be the ones who wanted to practice blood magic.  Which is, you know, forbidden.  So, can they really be trusted?

A communal setting with bars on the doors is a prison.  The Harrowing or forced Tranquility is torture IMO.  They aren't even allowed outside, though as of WH we learned that was because of Anders' escape attempts.  Mages can also be slaughtered without any due process, simply upon suspicion of being possessed.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 décembre 2010 - 01:13 .