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[IanPolaris]

Erika T wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd also like to point out that Rage Abominations, the "weakest" abomination there is, can take out three fully trained Templars when possessing a cat. I think that's saying something.

so how come a level 5 rogue with without any weapons can beat it on autofight? 

Pfeh.  Get mana-clash (which any mage can get as soon as level 6 or so), and you can wipe out the entire tower nearly solo.

-Polaris

[Erika T]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

(MAJOR HUGE SPOILER FOR END OF GAME - DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NEVER FINISHED)

As a brief diversion from the fireworks here (delightful, by the way - Dean, you are my hero!) --

I have a little secret to confess - I have never before this very evening finished the game! That's right, I only just now, right now, finished for the first time! I had on previous playthroughs stopped a little short of the final chapter because I wanted to try some different builds or ideas. (Respec 1.6 put an end to that problem for me.)

Here's what I did, and one of my choices directly impacts this discussion:

1)Landsmeet - intended to spare Logain, Alistair insisted that he must be executed, I let myself be talked into it, made Alistair do the deed. Used my infuence to have him spare Anora and lock her in the tower. Made Alistair king.
2)Did the Dark Ritual - made Alistair have sex with Morri since I always thought those two liked each other anyway. (I am gay to the core and would not have been able to do the deed. In a gay relationship with Zevran. Had sex with Alistair while he was inexperienced, decided he, being of royal blood, and since he was as bi as Zev, should be straight so he could have heirs. Told him I didn't love him, hardened him. I was lying, but I love Zev too, so hey, it was all for the best.)
3) Beat the Archdemon. (Epic battle on Nightmare, way cool! Only used the Redcliffe men and didn't need any other alliances.)
4) At Alistairs coronation, he offered me any boon. ASKED HIM TO FREE THE MAGES' CIRCLE.

So now, much of this discussion can take a different turn. While I believe that mages need to be policed, my loyalty to mages like First Enchanter Irving make me think that mages can and should police themselves, being trained and supervised by others who are sympathetic to them.

The main point of this post is that - it should be remembered that the player character has a way to exercise political influence at the end of the game, and if you think that mages can supervise themselves better than the Templars, you actually can make that happen in-game.

I've never been so happy and satisfied with the resolution of a story. Dragon Age is a most awesome game!

Well done for finishing DAO for the first time!  what was the epilogue like when you freed the circle?  

Are you gay in real life or just in the game?  Not sure if Im allowed to ask this, sorry if its too personal - the reason I am asking is to find out whether people play their own sexual orientation?  I am straight but seduced Leliana all the same and it was soo interesting.   And when I played my male cousland, I had sex with zev,,, 

I just had to recreate my human mage and just started the replay because my old laptop died a slow, painful death.  I will try to free the circle too, although I might have already ruined it as I pissed off Irving with Jowan.

[Erika T]

IanPolaris wrote...

Erika T wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd also like to point out that Rage Abominations, the "weakest" abomination there is, can take out three fully trained Templars when possessing a cat. I think that's saying something.

so how come a level 5 rogue with without any weapons can beat it on autofight? 

Pfeh.  Get mana-clash (which any mage can get as soon as level 6 or so), and you can wipe out the entire tower nearly solo.

-Polaris

well thats exactly my point.  mages arent THAT dangerous, not even when they turn into abominations.  Thats the point I am trying to make.  A mage with the magical power is no more deadly than a howe like twisted minded human being with soldiers at his disposal.  People just understand blades and dont understand magic, and what they dont understand, they fear.

Having said that, I am not sure that I would classify what the circle does is slavery... the mages dont have that bad a life, after all.  The elves had it worse, and the qunari mages too.  I dont think the issue is black and white. 

Anyone else supports my proposition of making the circle a boarding school like insitute? :)

[Erika T]

sorry Hanz, you've got a good point, I should have looked / asked elsewhere Im going to do that now.

[Dean_the_Young]

Erika T wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd also like to point out that Rage Abominations, the "weakest" abomination there is, can take out three fully trained Templars when possessing a cat. I think that's saying something.

so how come a level 5 rogue with without any weapons can beat it on autofight? 

Gameplay versus lore.

Duh.

[Erika T]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Erika T wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd also like to point out that Rage Abominations, the "weakest" abomination there is, can take out three fully trained Templars when possessing a cat. I think that's saying something.

so how come a level 5 rogue with without any weapons can beat it on autofight? 

Gameplay versus lore.

Duh.

There are a few instances in DAO where gameplay is not consistent with lore. Which should we accept as "reality" then? 

In gameplay, abominations are a piece of cake.  Should we accept this and say the templars are overreacting?  (funnily enough I always felt they were).  In lore, abominations are the worst thing that can happen - remember, even Duncan says "worst things than blood mages stalk these lands," or something like that and Gregoire just seems to disagree... 

[Dean_the_Young]

Erika T wrote...

There are a few instances in DAO where gameplay is not consistent with lore. Which should we accept as "reality" then? 

Lore.

In gameplay, abominations are a piece of cake.  Should we accept this and say the templars are overreacting?  (funnily enough I always felt they were).  In lore, abominations are the worst thing that can happen - remember, even Duncan says "worst things than blood mages stalk these lands," or something like that and Gregoire just seems to disagree...

In gameplay, you're also a super-special-awsome Grey Warden who, even at level one, is regularly described as a nearly peerless warrior, the best of the best, who trounces fighters, soldiers, and opponents with years (if not decades) of experience over you.

In the Origin story.

Alas, the world is not filled up with everyone being like you, or your super-special party. The Grey Warden is Special, as is everyone else once they enter the Grey Warden's party. The Grey Warden is not the bar of how everyone else is, and what everyone else can do, even in gameplay alone.

[Cypher0020]

Ok wow. I"m gonna have to reread the pages, but wow...quite the lively debate....



New question....



what would happen to a templar in trainning if he/she was suddenly found out to have magical abilities? Then what??

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ok, if we are going for lore....



I see nothing in the lore that shows abominations causing destruction or annihilation of entire nations or even cities. isolated villages, yes. We hear hints that they are bad, but see little real examples. And if you want to get technical, with the exception of the Blights, the biggest losses of life and causes of destruction are good ol fashioned non-magical political and social unrest, or the ambitions of mad or careless leaders.



So again, the threat of abominations is pretty low in comparison to the threat of the machinations and ambitions of normal, ordinary folks.

[nos_astra]

Cypher0020 wrote...
what would happen to a templar in trainning if he/she was suddenly found out to have magical abilities? Then what??

Then he's a mage and has to go through the whole ordeal - apprenticeship and Harrowing. Although it should be rare, most people show their magical abilities during their childhood or teens.

Modifié par klarabella, 30 décembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Ok, if we are going for lore...

There is not much data on what is only Chantry propaganda and what is the true threat.

Only two things hint at how the society sees mages:
Wynne says that mage children are often killed before the Templars can come and save them (from ordinary people who are so afraid that they try to kill children).
She also says she had little control over her magic and set another child on fire.

The game makes it look people are fine with mages running about but the lore says, people have little opportunity to even see a mage in action, so what they fear are tales of the potential for destruction mages carry.

[IanPolaris]

So if we are only supposed to go with game "lore", then am I allowed to point out that almost all of the game lore (and all of th codecies) are written by the Chantry?  That will slant the information given just a wee bit doncha think?

Am I allowed to point out, that it would be in the chantry's best interest to "point and view with alarm" all instances of abominations in non-chantry lands?  We know that I am because it's already known they "point and view with alarm" any nation or instance where magic isn't solely under their control so they can send an exalted march after it (first the Dales and quite possibly Orzammar if you helped Dagna).

Given that it's the chantry that's writing the lore, doncha think that if there WERE a real abomination problem in non-chantry lands (Dalish Clans, Chasind, Avvars, etc) that we'd hear all about it over and over and over again?

Thus I say again that we have in-game empirical evidence based on the lore, that in fact abominations are not the threat (nor are non-sanctioned mages) that the Chantry wants you to believe.  Indeed based on the same lore, I think it's a very reasonable conclusion that it's actually hard to become an abomination (even if a mage) since that requires at least the partial consent of the person to "let the demon in".  I also note that mages aren't the only ones that can become abominations (a point that no one else has raised) which makes the Chantry position/excuse even more threadbare (specifically I note Amelia and Kitty....and Amelia is no mage, but that didn't stop Kitty from making her an abomination unless you stop it).

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...
So if we are only supposed to go with game "lore", then am I allowed to point out that almost all of the game lore (and all of th codecies) are written by the Chantry?  That will slant the information given just a wee bit doncha think?
-Polaris

The lore is written by the authors.

We will see more lore concerning magic in DA2.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
So if we are only supposed to go with game "lore", then am I allowed to point out that almost all of the game lore (and all of th codecies) are written by the Chantry?  That will slant the information given just a wee bit doncha think?
-Polaris

The lore is written by the authors.

We will see more lore concerning magic in DA2.

The codex entries are all written from the PoV of the Chantry and I should be allowed to say so.  It's what the authors have stated after all.  It's there in the game in black and white.

-Polaris

[BelgarathMTH]

Erika T wrote...

Well done for finishing DAO for the first time!  what was the epilogue like when you freed the circle?  

Are you gay in real life or just in the game?  Not sure if Im allowed to ask this, sorry if its too personal - the reason I am asking is to find out whether people play their own sexual orientation?  I am straight but seduced Leliana all the same and it was soo interesting.   And when I played my male cousland, I had sex with zev,,, 

I just had to recreate my human mage and just started the replay because my old laptop died a slow, painful death.  I will try to free the circle too, although I might have already ruined it as I pissed off Irving with Jowan.

Thanks for asking, Erika. I wasn't going to post in here any more, because I already got to have my say, and I didn't want to stir the pot anymore or fight with anybody any more in the argument that was going on. (Things seem to have calmed down today.)

But just to quickly answer your question - yes, I am gay in real life, and yes, I always play my own sexual orientation in games. I often use character editor utilities and mods in addition to doing some quick rewriting of dialogue in my imagination to make it possible for me to do so.

I probably got off-topic by mentioning it, but my on-topic point in that post was about freeing the Mages' Circle. I thought it was pretty cool to get to end the game this way, and I thought that the chance to make the choice had relevance to the thread topic.

I don't think having helped Jowan in the origin will stop you from getting that ending. Having made Alistair king is what gets you the option, and someone said that Anora would also do it. You may have to be playing a mage for the option to come up - I don't know, since I've never played anything else.

As for freeing the Circle, if you keep reading after my post, some of them kind of pooh-pooh'ed my happy ending and said that Awakenings would show that nothing changes.

That doesn't stop me from enjoying having freed the Circle. I don't have to accept Awakenings as personal canon if I don't want to. In fact, I think it's kind of interesting that multiple endings to Origins are provided, including the death of the main character as a choice, and thus, people speak about their own "personal canons". That's probably the coining of a new phrase right there, if I'm not mistaken.

My epilogue had all the possible happy outcomes - The dwarf girl (can't remember her name) becomes a mage, a new era in dwarf-mage relations begins, Zev agrees to stay with me in Denerim as I become one of Alistair's advisors, better elf-human relations, Alistair increases the rights of the Denerim elves, Bhelen makes his reforms (causing strong opposition and possibility for future dwarf storyline), etc, etc. I was left feeling extremely satisfied with my story and having a nice sense of accomplishment at having played a role in creating it.

Once again, thanks for asking.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 30 décembre 2010 - 07:54 .

[Dave of Canada]

Erika T wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd also like to point out that Rage Abominations, the "weakest" abomination there is, can take out three fully trained Templars when possessing a cat. I think that's saying something.

so how come a level 5 rogue with without any weapons can beat it on autofight? 

I can punch the Archdemon to death, does that mean the Archdemon is pathetic and can be punched to death in real life by a mage? Doubt it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

There is not much data on what is only Chantry propaganda and what is the true threat.

Only two things hint at how the society sees mages:
Wynne says that mage children are often killed before the Templars can come and save them (from ordinary people who are so afraid that they try to kill children).
She also says she had little control over her magic and set another child on fire.

The game makes it look people are fine with mages running about but the lore says, people have little opportunity to even see a mage in action, so what they fear are tales of the potential for destruction mages carry.

I know the stories from that aspect. The attacking of mages by the population that fears them. Based on ignorance and superstition, which is generally supported and encouraged by the Chantry. The Chantry could easily explain that mages need not be feared, so long as they are properly trained, and people would be less fearful of having mages in their families, or turning over children to the Chantry, if the stigma of magic wwas understood better. The Chantry has great power, probably more than the crown, in influencing and educating people.

Wynne also said that people blame all sorts of things (dead babies, crop failures, ect) on mages, even where no magic is present. Thus, it is possible that many tales of the work of abominations or maleficar are either exaggerated, or misidentified, in cases where there were no obvious mages or abominations present.

[nos_astra]

But things have taken on a life of their own. I doubt the Chantry can erase the mistrust towards mages that has developed over more than a thousand years by simply telling them the opposite.

It's like telling them the sky is not blue or the earth is not flat.

Modifié par klarabella, 30 décembre 2010 - 09:46 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It's not impossible over a couple generations, though. Although in doing so, the Chantry would lose their monopoly on magic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It's not impossible over a couple generations, though. Although in doing so, the Chantry would lose their monopoly on magic.

I don't think change will come from within the Chantry until there are external pressures for that. As it stands, they have nothing to gain with change and a lot to lose.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It's not impossible over a couple generations, though. Although in doing so, the Chantry would lose their monopoly on magic.

I don't think change will come from within the Chantry until there are external pressures for that. As it stands, they have nothing to gain with change and a lot to lose.

Yeah, they would. Or, a major internal rift. The Chantry's power and influence is big and widespread. Eventually, an inevitable conflict between power of state/power of church is going to come into being. Which could prove pretty disasterous if it develops during an especially tense time with non-Chantry entities, such as Tevinter or the qunari.

[IanPolaris]

I think a major reformation/protestant style rift in the Chantry is virtually inevitable, and yes, I think the status of magic and mages is what will drive it.



-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think a major reformation/protestant style rift in the Chantry is virtually inevitable, and yes, I think the status of magic and mages is what will drive it.

-Polaris

It could, though there are other ideological possibilities. magic is Tevinter is somehow involved in some capacity. Though I think that Tevinter itself probably prefers the attitudes of the rest of Thedas, as it gives them an advantage. Allowing less restrictions on magic, magical research, and practice allows them to develop far more powerful magic and spells, where as potential rivals of the "White" Chantry would be hobbled because of their greater restrictions.

So strangely enough, I could see Tevinter quietly supporting the Chantry line, if magic were involved. But I think there's other possibilities, and political pressures causing rifts are also more likely to generate a schizm.