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[IanPolaris]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think a major reformation/protestant style rift in the Chantry is virtually inevitable, and yes, I think the status of magic and mages is what will drive it.

-Polaris

It could, though there are other ideological possibilities. magic is Tevinter is somehow involved in some capacity. Though I think that Tevinter itself probably prefers the attitudes of the rest of Thedas, as it gives them an advantage. Allowing less restrictions on magic, magical research, and practice allows them to develop far more powerful magic and spells, where as potential rivals of the "White" Chantry would be hobbled because of their greater restrictions.

So strangely enough, I could see Tevinter quietly supporting the Chantry line, if magic were involved. But I think there's other possibilities, and political pressures causing rifts are also more likely to generate a schizm.

Actually what I think is that it will be some combination of the two.  After all IRL history, proto-Protestant ideas had been around (and savagely suppressed) by the RC church for as long as two centuries before Martin Luther.  Martin Luther was fortunate enough to come in a time where it was in the political "self-interest" of several German Princes within the HRE to be "convinced" Luther was right and to "view with alarm" the RC's position on several things such as indulgences.

I think we may be coming to a crossroads here given that the Andrastian Divine (at least in Fereldan) is being viewed more and more as an Orlesian Tool.  As such I can see many nations that dislike Orlais (such as Fereldan to name one) being "convinced" that the official Chantry line is not true to the "original" Chant of Light (for political reasons) and presto, instant schism.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

So if we are only supposed to go with game "lore", then am I allowed to point out that almost all of the game lore (and all of th codecies) are written by the Chantry?  That will slant the information given just a wee bit doncha think?

Am I allowed to point out, that it would be in the chantry's best interest to "point and view with alarm" all instances of abominations in non-chantry lands?  We know that I am because it's already known they "point and view with alarm" any nation or instance where magic isn't solely under their control so they can send an exalted march after it (first the Dales and quite possibly Orzammar if you helped Dagna).

Given that it's the chantry that's writing the lore, doncha think that if there WERE a real abomination problem in non-chantry lands (Dalish Clans, Chasind, Avvars, etc) that we'd hear all about it over and over and over again?

Thus I say again that we have in-game empirical evidence based on the lore, that in fact abominations are not the threat (nor are non-sanctioned mages) that the Chantry wants you to believe.  Indeed based on the same lore, I think it's a very reasonable conclusion that it's actually hard to become an abomination (even if a mage) since that requires at least the partial consent of the person to "let the demon in".  I also note that mages aren't the only ones that can become abominations (a point that no one else has raised) which makes the Chantry position/excuse even more threadbare (specifically I note Amelia and Kitty....and Amelia is no mage, but that didn't stop Kitty from making her an abomination unless you stop it).

-Polaris

Why yes, yes you are. But then you should also point out that about 50% of all the "chantry written" codicies are written by Brother Genitivi, who have shown to be remarkably anti-chantry.
However you don't, which again invalidates all your claims, as you again refuses to see the situation from all angles.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why yes, yes you are. But then you should also point out that about 50% of all the "chantry written" codicies are written by Brother Genitivi, who have shown to be remarkably anti-chantry.
However you don't, which again invalidates all your claims, as you again refuses to see the situation from all angles.

No it doesn't.  It would only do so if Brother Genitivi were as anti-chantry as you claim (which I dispute).  At most he represents a "liberal wing" of the chantry AND if the key codex entries were written by him regarding magic and it's history in the chantry (but you will find that most of these are not).

Nice try at an ad hominem attack though.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

The chantry doesn't write all the codices, though. The codex is a series of notes written by the warden, i thought (some of them, it's more evident than others) as well as copying the information you pick up in various places. A lot of the books and notes were written by the chantry and/or Genetivi, but the Dalish ones were picked up in the Dalish camp, so written by the Dalish, the orzammar ones were written by the dwarves, etc.



I don't think the chantry knows much about the Dalish or dwarven culture or life.

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

The chantry doesn't write all the codices, though. The codex is a series of notes written by the warden, i thought (some of them, it's more evident than others) as well as copying the information you pick up in various places. A lot of the books and notes were written by the chantry and/or Genetivi, but the Dalish ones were picked up in the Dalish camp, so written by the Dalish, the orzammar ones were written by the dwarves, etc.

I don't think the chantry knows much about the Dalish or dwarven culture or life.

Given that dwarves don't even have a fade connection, it's fair to exclude them from the discussion either way I think (as Dwarves...how Orzammar handes apostate mages is a different prosition altogether).  However, I believe my point is a sound one and should not be pooh-pooed or ignored.  If mages really were as intrinsically dangerous as the Chantry wants you to believe, we should be seeing a whole lot more evidence for this in non-Andrastian cultures.

We don't.  Draw the obvious conclusion:  The Chantry is hyping and grossly overstating the danger (viewing with alarm as it's sometimes called) for it's own ends.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The chantry doesn't write all the codices, though. The codex is a series of notes written by the warden, i thought (some of them, it's more evident than others) as well as copying the information you pick up in various places. A lot of the books and notes were written by the chantry and/or Genetivi, but the Dalish ones were picked up in the Dalish camp, so written by the Dalish, the orzammar ones were written by the dwarves, etc.

I don't think the chantry knows much about the Dalish or dwarven culture or life.

Given that dwarves don't even have a fade connection, it's fair to exclude them from the discussion either way I think (as Dwarves...how Orzammar handes apostate mages is a different prosition altogether).  However, I believe my point is a sound one and should not be pooh-pooed or ignored.  If mages really were as intrinsically dangerous as the Chantry wants you to believe, we should be seeing a whole lot more evidence for this in non-Andrastian cultures.

We don't.  Draw the obvious conclusion:  The Chantry is hyping and grossly overstating the danger (viewing with alarm as it's sometimes called) for it's own ends.

-Polaris

Again, you are assuming that these other cultures have no counter-measure at all to the abominations. We don't wether or not they do, but logic would demand that they have some sort of counter-measure, since at least the andrastian and the Qunari thinks it neccesary.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, you are assuming that these other cultures have no counter-measure at all to the abominations. We don't wether or not they do, but logic would demand that they have some sort of counter-measure, since at least the andrastian and the Qunari thinks it neccesary.

I am making no such assumption.  The fact that even the most primitive cultures and even those that actively encourage possession (Rivain) don't have the Abomination troubles (at least apparently) that the Andrastian Nations do, is evidence that the regressive doctrine of the Chantry and it's Circle isn't necessary.  If anything, other counter-measures if they exist enhance my overall point.

However, given the evidence presented in the actual game and in the various sources of game lore, it is simplier (and thus far more reasonable) to assume that mages simply aren't as dangerous (at least when it comes to abominations) as the Chantry wants you to believe.  This in no way means I don't think that mages shouldn't be trained from a young age, but the Chantry does seem to be guilty of "viewing with alarm" for it's own political gain (at least at the higher echelons).

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Since the dwarves have no mages of their own, and are pretty resistant to magic, it is unlikely they have, or need, a system to deal with abominations and out of control magic. It is only if Dagna goes to the circle, writes her book, that mages go to Orzammar.



As far as how the dwarves would react, depends on who is in charge of Orzammar. Bhelen might actually welcome them, in exchange for the magi working in service to Orzammar's armies as they battle darkspawn and reclaim old thaigs. I do not think a hard-core pragmatist like Bhelen would shun such a valuable resource. And the fact that the dwarves are the only source of lyrium, a resource the Chantry desperately needs to keep it's templars under control, I think Bhelen would certainly be able to curtail the worst objections and plans of exhalted marches by waving that trump card in their faces.



The dwarves themselves do not appear to fear magic at all. In fact, they seem to be either very curious about this "exotic" talent, or downright apathetic to it, being a surface phenomenon.



But the codexes themselves are written by Chantry personnell for the most part, and Brother Genitivi is anything but "anti-Chantry". He is certainly a more liberal, cutting edge scholar, but he still believes in the Chantry as a whole. A good example of Chantry "flavor" in the codexes, is to compare the codex entries you get for the Dalish playing as a Dalish, and the ones on the Dalish for everyone else. The Dalish and the Dwarves are the only two Chantry-Free sources we have in Ferelden, so I find it best to compare versions between Chantry/non-Chantry sources, and see what they agree on. There, in between where two opposing sources agree on something, is likely to be actual fact.

[Erika T]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Erika T wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd also like to point out that Rage Abominations, the "weakest" abomination there is, can take out three fully trained Templars when possessing a cat. I think that's saying something.

so how come a level 5 rogue with without any weapons can beat it on autofight? 

I can punch the Archdemon to death, does that mean the Archdemon is pathetic and can be punched to death in real life by a mage? Doubt it.

If you'd indulge me,... Id like to see how you punch an archdemon to death.  perhaps you could upload a video to youtube for us please? 

[Erika T]

BelgarathMTH wrote...


Thanks for asking, Erika. I wasn't going to post in here any more, because I already got to have my say, and I didn't want to stir the pot anymore or fight with anybody any more in the argument that was going on. (Things seem to have calmed down today.)

But just to quickly answer your question - yes, I am gay in real life, and yes, I always play my own sexual orientation in games. I often use character editor utilities and mods in addition to doing some quick rewriting of dialogue in my imagination to make it possible for me to do so.

I probably got off-topic by mentioning it, but my on-topic point in that post was about freeing the Mages' Circle. I thought it was pretty cool to get to end the game this way, and I thought that the chance to make the choice had relevance to the thread topic.

I don't think having helped Jowan in the origin will stop you from getting that ending. Having made Alistair king is what gets you the option, and someone said that Anora would also do it. You may have to be playing a mage for the option to come up - I don't know, since I've never played anything else.

As for freeing the Circle, if you keep reading after my post, some of them kind of pooh-pooh'ed my happy ending and said that Awakenings would show that nothing changes.

That doesn't stop me from enjoying having freed the Circle. I don't have to accept Awakenings as personal canon if I don't want to. In fact, I think it's kind of interesting that multiple endings to Origins are provided, including the death of the main character as a choice, and thus, people speak about their own "personal canons". That's probably the coining of a new phrase right there, if I'm not mistaken.

My epilogue had all the possible happy outcomes - The dwarf girl (can't remember her name) becomes a mage, a new era in dwarf-mage relations begins, Zev agrees to stay with me in Denerim as I become one of Alistair's advisors, better elf-human relations, Alistair increases the rights of the Denerim elves, Bhelen makes his reforms (causing strong opposition and possibility for future dwarf storyline), etc, etc. I was left feeling extremely satisfied with my story and having a nice sense of accomplishment at having played a role in creating it.

Once again, thanks for asking.

Hello ... it looks like this subject is creating heated arguments anyhow... I dont think you should stop writing just because some people like to argue... whats wonderful about this game is that it engages us so much...  (although some people need to chill as its just fiction )

Thanks for andswering my questions.   You said your story had a happy ending - hmm i agree that most is happy, but Bhelen?  he is evil, and he kills Harrowmont on the spot, doesnt he?  The Dwarf girl is Dagna.. I just met her again ...

[BelgarathMTH]

Erika T wrote...

Thanks for andswering my questions.   You said your story had a happy ending - hmm i agree that most is happy, but Bhelen?  he is evil, and he kills Harrowmont on the spot, doesnt he?  The Dwarf girl is Dagna.. I just met her again ...

I don't like Bhelen's ruthlessness, and I asked him not to kill Harrowmont (which he proceeds to do anyway). But I do like his politics (of reforming the caste system), and the Orzammar portion of the game gives you scene after scene about how unjust the caste system is and how much suffering it causes. So I don't think Bhelen is evil. Maybe a bit machiaveliian, but not evil.

Harrowmont is just as ruthless. He lies to the nobles and makes promises he has no intention of keeping. He supports the traditional caste system. I don't think he would support Dagna's quest or relations with the mages. 

It's possible to look at some of the issues in this thread using the dwarves' caste system as a variation on the theme of the Templars and the Mages. Since so many here are arguing against defining lives according to an accident of birth, it seems that the same people should support Bhelen and the abolishment of the dwarven caste system.

The theme of "Are Templars So Bad" could also be expressed and discussed in the context of "Is the Caste System so Bad"? 

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 31 décembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Glaucon wrote...

@BelgarathMTH

I'd go along with that notion. I'd include Feudalism and Monarchies into that debate as well. It's natural for us to apply modern political/moral/religious ideas to the DA universe but I wonder how useful it is other than for expressing our own individual belief systems. Then there is always the problem of going from how something is to how it should be in sweeping statements that offer no insights into how the desired outcome can be realised. It was said a few times above in this thread that such change can take hundreds of years. Beyond that there is always the law of unintended consequences.

Glaucon, strongly agreed. One of the things I've thought about how passionate people have gotten in this thread is that we're all applying 21st century American democratic thinking to what is supposed to be a mirror of medieval-renaissance feudal-monarchical Europe.

It's probably an error in critical thinking to say that characters, people, places, and events in this kind of story need to follow 21st century real life values. I'm just as guilty of this as everyone else here.

Perhaps when we read/play stories like Dragon Age Origins, many of us are yearning for the option for our player character heroes to become historical figures who bring democratic values to this feudal society.

I guess having debates based on the bringing of democracy to high-fantasy fictional worlds keeps our skills honed for times when we might need to have similar debates about issues in real life, which would become much more important if actual real-world injustices were being committed.

As long as everyone understands clearly that it is only an intellectual exercise, done mostly for entertainment, when we are doing it in the context of discussing fiction.

[Redcoat]

I view the Templars as the DAO equivalent of the Mutaween in Saudi Arabia - a gang of self-righteous thugs working to enforce the whim of organised religion. I don't necessarily object to their purpose (having a division of soldiers who are specially trained to fight mages is useful), but I do object to them being under the authority of a religion that is deeply prejudiced against mages. I find the notion that people should be confined or restricted simply because of a religious myth abhorrent (and I've seen no evidence that the Chantry's "mages storming the Golden City causing Darkspawn" myth is at all true). I've simply seen too much of that sort of thing in real life to let it pass.

One particularly telling moment is during the mage origin, where Greagoir confronts Jowan and says, "as Knight-Commander I hereby sentence this blood mage to death." Note that he makes no mention of Jowan breaking into the repository or attempting to escape the Circle. No, merely having knowledge of blood magic is enough for him to be put to death, and I personally detest the idea that people should be punished merely for knowing something just because that knowledge might be used to do bad things.

[BelgarathMTH]

@Redcoat, it's different because the mages really are dangerous and not always in control of their own power. Although the Chantry may be using religion as a tool, this is not a case where superstition is oppressing innocents, as in your Saudi Arabian example, or as in my favorite example, the Salem witch trials.



As for blood magic carrying the death penalty, that may be extreme, but I absolutely think it should be illegal. Blood magic is about summoning demons (which really exist) and overriding other people's free will (which I consider inherently evil).

[Erika T]

Happy new year to all the lovely people here I wonder why there are no big chantry-holidays (like xmas) in DAO. wishing you all a fabulous, DA2-filled 2011.

[IanPolaris]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

@Redcoat, it's different because the mages really are dangerous and not always in control of their own power. Although the Chantry may be using religion as a tool, this is not a case where superstition is oppressing innocents, as in your Saudi Arabian example, or as in my favorite example, the Salem witch trials.

Anyone with power might be dangerous.  By the same logic all nobles in Fereldan should be locked away too.  What's worse, there is very compelling in-game evidence that the Chantry is deliberately hyping (viewing with alarm) perhaps a slight increased chance a mage might become an abomination over anyone else (we know in game that demons can possess anyone....mage or non-mage) in order to fan the flames of fear to justify the system.

In short, while I agree that mages do need training and guidance from an early age, I strongly dissent and question just how "dangerous" mages really as.  As I keep saying before when you keep pulling out this chestnut, "Evidence would be nice"

As for blood magic carrying the death penalty, that may be extreme, but I absolutely think it should be illegal. Blood magic is about summoning demons (which really exist) and overriding other people's free will (which I consider inherently evil).

It's not onl unjust but absolutely stupid on any pragmatic level.  If bloodmagic is outlawed then only outlaws will have bloodmagic.  When you also consider that bloodmagic is potentially more powerful than all other forms of magic, that's a big, big mistake.  [Uldred should be proof enough of that.]  I've said many times before that I have no problems with bloodmagic being strictly regulated, but at least a small cadre of trusted mages should have bloodmagic if for no other reason than the combat criminal mages who have it.

As for Jowan, punish him for his crimes, but not for what he is.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Erika T wrote...

Happy new year to all the lovely people here I wonder why there are no big chantry-holidays (like xmas) in DAO. wishing you all a fabulous, DA2-filled 2011.

Apparently there is an equivalent of Chistmas (at least if you have all the expansions) based on the winter solstice I think.

-Polaris

[BelgarathMTH]

Happy New Year to you, too, Erika!

[BelgarathMTH]

CONTAINS AWAKENINGS SPOILERS

Well, I've been playing Awakenings for the first time over yesterday and today, and I think it's given me some new insight into this discussion.

A lot of the posters are probably Anders fans. I've only just gotten to know him well enough to see the connection.

I've gotten up to the part where we meet Wynne and find out about the Libertarians' latest move, and then gone into the warehouse thinking to find phylacteries, only to be forced to kill some out-of-control fanatical templars.

I was confused at first by Anders' comment about the Libertarians - "I hate Chantry control as much as the next mage, but they (the Libertarians) can't just up and leave! This is madness!"

Then it dawned on me that the comment was meant to be sarcasm. I think that the voice actor didn't get it quite right - there wasn't enough in his tone to indicate the sarcasm.

As to my already having had the Mages' Circle freed at the end of Origins, this is simply a case of the Awakenings writers not providing for all the possible endings of Origins, something people have been complaining about since Awakenings was released.

I think what will happen is that the writers of all the future installments are going to do some "backward continuity", which is a term used in soap opera writing to mean making an unwanted storyline go away by having a flashback or dialogue that adds new backstory that totally changes what was previously written.

That is, in a nutshell, they will write future installments with one story that assumes only one possible outcome of Origins, and the one they are using for Awakenings assumes that the player character didn't die and did not assume the throne, Alistair is king (with or without Anora I haven't seen yet in the new story), and the Mages' Circle was not freed by the player.

Oh well. I'm going along with Awakenings' story for now so I can play the game. I'm just doing it for fun and entertainment, after all.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 31 décembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Thanks, Hanz. I'm already figuring out that Awakenings is a very flawed and unpolished game. I'm trying to enjoy it for what it is. Entertaining with nothing better to do until DA2 comes out.

I didn't even take Sighrun into my party. I thought maybe the game was going to force her on me in order to go into the Deep Roads, but no, so I stuck with my original three companions.

Thanks for the bug warnings. I may or may not finish at this point. I'm already a bit less into it than I was into Origins. My current plan is to try again tomorrow and then we'll see.

Anyway, back on topic, I do think the character of Anders has something to contribute to the discussion about Templars, or would have if he were written and programmed a little more thoroughly.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:22 .