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[IanPolaris]

Deztyn,



Please show me solid evidence that there is an abomination problem in places outside of Chantry control. That's the only argument I'll accept that the Chantry system is necessary. So far, I haven't seen it (and if anything the opposite has been strongly implied).



-Polaris

[BelgarathMTH]

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn,

If what you say is so, then how did the Tevinter Imperium, Ancient Elves, Dalish (both as tribes and as their own independant kdm) let alone the Rivain who actually encourage a controlled sort of possession within their own witches survive.
-Polaris

We don't know how these other cultures deal with their mages because David G. has not written a story from their point of view. He wrote his story from the point of view of Ferelden.

Trying to argue about a storyline in a work of fiction based on stories that have not been written by the author just doesn't make any sense to me.

"Well, the author didn't write these stories about cultures mentioned peripherally in the story he did write, therefore these unwritten stories prove my argument."

I just don't get how somebody could buy an argument like that or take it seriously.

[IanPolaris]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Deztyn,

If what you say is so, then how did the Tevinter Imperium, Ancient Elves, Dalish (both as tribes and as their own independant kdm) let alone the Rivain who actually encourage a controlled sort of possession within their own witches survive.
-Polaris

We don't know how these other cultures deal with their mages because David G. has not written a story from their point of view. He wrote his story from the point of view of Ferelden.

Trying to argue about a storyline in a work of fiction based on stories that have not been written by the author just doesn't make any sense to me.

"Well, the author didn't write these stories about cultures mentioned peripherally in the story he did write, therefore these unwritten stories prove my argument."

I just don't get how somebody could buy an argument like that or take it seriously.

You obviously have never heard of Forgotten Realms or Ebberon or Middle Earth or a whole host of other game worlds out there designed to be experienced.  It is reasonable to demand internal consistancy in the world and we are allowed to look at what the world presents us and assume an internal logic unless the author(s) specifically say differently.

DG has NEVER said that abominations were a problem outside of Chantry Cultures.  There is no evidence of this in game either.  Therefore my point stands.

Stop hiding this crucial point and stop hiding behind DG's skirts and draw the obvious conclusion.  All the points I've made about magic outside the Chantry have been confirmed game canon...and that means DG had a hand in it.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Skadi, the mages are allowed to keep their family connections, they just aren't allowed to live with their families. Which is partially why I say they aren't "ripped away" from their families. The other part is because some of the families don't even want their child, after it shows magical talents.

They aren't allowed to keep their family connections, except in rare cases. Family contact/relationships for mages are discouraged. Maybe rich or influential families, like Eamon or Finn's family, can get around it, but the average person, no.

Not to mention, unless under rare sanction, are mages allowed to marry and have children of their own.

[nos_astra]

It's just a theory. And the moment the world of Dragon Age is expanded your theory may or may not go up in flames and burn to ash.



You know Schrödinger's cat?

Up to the point where the authors specify the situation in other parts of Thedas any theory you can think of can become true.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
They aren't allowed to keep their family connections, except in rare cases. Family contact/relationships for mages are discouraged. Maybe rich or influential families, like Eamon or Finn's family, can get around it, but the average person, no.

They are discouraged, not impossible. Forbidden and discouraged are not the same.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Not to mention, unless under rare sanction, are mages allowed to marry and have children of their own.

So are the templars.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

It's just a theory. And the moment the world of Dragon Age is expanded your theory may or may not go up in flames and burn to ash.

You know Schrödinger's cat?
Up to the point where the authors specify the situation in other parts of Thedas any theory you can think of can become true.

Except the authors have specified.  That is my point.  The Tevinter Imperium existed for centuries certainly (perhaps even thousands of years) with no real control on magic, but we don't hear of "Abominations Gone Wild".  Likewise we don't hear of it with the Dalish, Avvar, Rivvain, etc and the authors HAVE at least described in some detail all these cultures....certainly enough that if abominations were the dire threat the Chantry poses, we should have seen evidence for it.  Quantum Uncertainty only applies if no observation has been made, but in this case observation (even indirect observation is enough) has in fact been made.

Tell you what.  If you think I'm wrong, please ask for DG's official opinion on this matter.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
They aren't allowed to keep their family connections, except in rare cases. Family contact/relationships for mages are discouraged. Maybe rich or influential families, like Eamon or Finn's family, can get around it, but the average person, no.

They are discouraged, not impossible. Forbidden and discouraged are not the same.

Children are ripped away from their parents and their parents are told to stay away.  Families have to work to get around it.   Discouraged in this case is the next best thing to forbidden.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Not to mention, unless under rare sanction, are mages allowed to marry and have children of their own.

So are the templars.

Templars are a member of a holy order who (presumably) have chosen a life of religious devotion.   The point is that there is a CHOICE involved here.  If you don't want to be a Templar, don't take the vows (and yes Alistair was a wimp in this regard).  Funny but that's far more choice in the matter than mages ever get.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

So are the templars.

Untrue. In DA2, for example, you have a templar and his wife you meet.

And templars, unlike mages, usually have the option to choose a life of service to the Chantry. There are some, like Alistair, who probably aren't given a choice, but probably most of them do so of their own free will (like Imiric). Unlike mages, who have no choice whatsoever: the Circle or get hunted down and killed/tranquiled like an animal.

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...
Except the authors have specified.  That is my point.

No, that's your interpretation of what little we do know about the world outside of Ferelden.

The authors have stated that the Codex is a collecting of  pieces of information your Warden may stumble upon that is neither complete nor unbiased. They have also stated that they can and will change things as they go along.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Except the authors have specified.  That is my point.

No, that's your interpretation of what little we do know about the world outside of Ferelden.

The authors have stated that the Codex is a collecting of  pieces of information your Warden may stumble upon that is neither complete nor unbiased. They have also stated that they can and will change things as they go along.

What we are given IS CANONICAL (edit athough admitted will have a bias in some cases) until and unless the authors have said otherwise.  If abominations outside the chantry were a problem we should have heard about it.  We haven't, so please stop hiding behind DG's skirts and draw the obvious conclusion.

Better yet, go ask DG yourself.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Given that most of the codecies are written by Chantry members, if anything we should be hearing more (not less) about "foreign abominations" because that is the Chantry Party line.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:48 .

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Untrue. In DA2, for example, you have a templar and his wife you meet.

Exactly, and Gaider was asked how this could be possible, considering that we see a templar in Origins who craves a loving family more than anything. People were under the impression that the templar vows would include vows of chastity.

Gaider clarified that templars are allowed to marry, if they can get permission. It is discouraged, though.

Feel free to ignore this.

[IanPolaris]

Yes but for the most part, Templars get to choose to be Templars. CHOOSE being the key word.]



-Polaris

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes but for the most part, Templars get to choose to be Templars. CHOOSE being the key word.

Who says they have much of a choice? Alistair had no choice.

[Reika]

Yeah, for example I wonder what happens to the non-mage kids that get taken from the mages. Somehow I doubt they're raised to live their lives outside of the Chantry.

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...
What we are given IS CANONICAL (edit athough admitted will have a bias in some cases) until and unless the authors have said otherwise.  If abominations outside the chantry were a problem we should have heard about it.  We haven't, so please stop hiding behind DG's skirts and draw the obvious conclusion.

I know that I know nothing.

The things I don't know about the world exceed what I do know about the world. Doesn't mean everything outside my scope of view does not exist.

Are you sure you still want to stick to this kind of argumentation, it makes you look incredibly narrow-minded (to put it politely).

Modifié par klarabella, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:04 .

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes but for the most part, Templars get to choose to be Templars. CHOOSE being the key word.

Who says they have much of a choice? Alistair had no choice.

That isn't entirely true.  Alistair had no choice but to go to the Chantry because he legal guardian (Arl Eamon) insisted (like a parent sending their kids to boarding school), but ultimately no one can force Alistair (or anyone else) to take Holy Vows.  It's just what other alternative would there be.....I can see why Alistair felt trapped, but he did in fact have a choice.

Mages don't get that choice and that makes all the difference.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
What we are given IS CANONICAL (edit athough admitted will have a bias in some cases) until and unless the authors have said otherwise.  If abominations outside the chantry were a problem we should have heard about it.  We haven't, so please stop hiding behind DG's skirts and draw the obvious conclusion.

I know that I know nothing.

The things I don't know about the world exceed what I do know about the world. Doesn't mean everything outside my scope of view does not exist.


Are you sure you still want to stick to this kind of argumentation, it makes you look incredibly narrow-minded, to put it politely.

All it shows, putting it nicely, is that you are ignoring game evidence that doesn't agree with your point of view.  Like I said, go ask DG if you are so sure.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...
That isn't entirely true.  Alistair had no choice but to go to the Chantry because he legal guardian (Arl Eamon) insisted (like a parent sending their kids to boarding school), but ultimately no one can force Alistair (or anyone else) to take Holy Vows.

That's not what Alistair says. He says Duncan saved him from the Chantry by using the Right of Conscription.

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That isn't entirely true.  Alistair had no choice but to go to the Chantry because he legal guardian (Arl Eamon) insisted (like a parent sending their kids to boarding school), but ultimately no one can force Alistair (or anyone else) to take Holy Vows.

That's not what Alistair says. He says Duncan saved him from the Chantry by using the Right of Conscription.

Alistair says a lot of things that aren't necessarily so.  Do I think that Alistair was lying?  Not at all.  I do think Alistair FELT trapped...being a Templar was the only skill-set he had, but what was the chantry going to do?  Hire a bloodmage and force Alistair to take his holy vows?

I think not.  You can refuse to take vows.  You can't stop being a mage.  Big difference.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

Exactly, and Gaider was asked how this could be possible, considering that we see a templar in Origins who craves a loving family more than anything. People were under the impression that the templar vows would include vows of chastity.

Gaider clarified that templars are allowed to marry, if they can get permission. It is discouraged, though.

Feel free to ignore this.

I do not ignore this. In fact, it re-enforces my observations. I was not under the impression that chastity was an enforced rule amongst templars, since not all Chantry personnel take them. Chantry Clerics are not supposed to marry, since they are "married to the maker", but chastity isn't necessarily a law or requirement, just a desired path.

It's discouraged. But then again, I have seen nothing that says templars are legally forbidden from leaving the order to pursue some other life path. The only thing I can see holding an unhappy templar back from leaving the order is his addiction to lyrium. But other than that, i don't see any statute where templars are chained for life by law.

They might be coerced to remain, but, if a templar decided enough was enough, and were willing to deal with the consequences of lyrium withdrawal, then there is nothing legally stopping them. I haven't seen anything about "illegal templars" or "templar apostates" who are hunted down and forced back into service, or killed/lobotomized on the spot.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That isn't entirely true.  Alistair had no choice but to go to the Chantry because he legal guardian (Arl Eamon) insisted (like a parent sending their kids to boarding school), but ultimately no one can force Alistair (or anyone else) to take Holy Vows.

That's not what Alistair says. He says Duncan saved him from the Chantry by using the Right of Conscription.

Alistair's case is different. He was sent there as a kid. By a foster father who was his legal guardian. he also happens to be...King Maric's bastard son, a fact that was widely known amongst his peers, and thus, the Chantry itself. They aren't going to let such a potentially useful, or potentially dangerous, individual go without a fight.

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...
Alistair says a lot of things that aren't necessarily so.

...

You can refuse to take vows. You can't stop being a mage.

You can refuse but it probably means you'll end up in prison as you know secrets you can spread.
You can stop being a mage by being made tranquil.

Also, kind of funny how something that has been stated in the game doesn't count as evidence, whereas something that has not been specifically stated counts as evidence for you.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:19 .

[IanPolaris]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That isn't entirely true.  Alistair had no choice but to go to the Chantry because he legal guardian (Arl Eamon) insisted (like a parent sending their kids to boarding school), but ultimately no one can force Alistair (or anyone else) to take Holy Vows.

That's not what Alistair says. He says Duncan saved him from the Chantry by using the Right of Conscription.

Alistair's case is different. He was sent there as a kid. By a foster father who was his legal guardian. he also happens to be...King Maric's bastard son, a fact that was widely known amongst his peers, and thus, the Chantry itself. They aren't going to let such a potentially useful, or potentially dangerous, individual go without a fight.

Agreed.  Very much a special case and even then, I see no evidence that the Chantry was going to hire a bloodmage and make Alistair take his holy vows...merely put him in a position where he feels he has no other options (true or not).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Alistair says a lot of things that aren't necessarily so.

...

You can refuse to take vows. You can't stop being a mage.

You can refuse but it probably means you'll end up in prison as you know secrets you can spread.
You can stop being a mage by being made tranquil.

Right.  Being made tranquil is equivalent to death since emotions are what make us human, so it's either do as the chantry says or die/be lobomized.  That is not a valid choice.  Alistair CAN choose not to take vows and that is not illegal.  He just doesn't have a livihood anymore if he doesn't.  That's much different.

Also, kind of funny how something that has been stated in the game doesn't count as evidence, whereas something that has not been specifically stated counts as evidence for you.

That Alistair says does count as evidence except it is presented only as Alistair's own PoV and NOT the official rules of the Templars and Chantry.  That means it doesn't count for much.

-Polaris