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[IanPolaris]

There is nothing illegal about refusing holy vows. Irving makes that point albeit implicitly when you complain about how Lily is just protecting the man she loves. Irving at least strongly implies that she choose to make her vows and is now violating them.



-Polaris

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...
Right.  Being made tranquil is equivalent to death since emotions are what make us human, ...

Well, I suppose mages can choose the real death to, if they wish. It's a matter of perspective.

That Alistair says does count as evidence except it is presented only as Alistair's own PoV and NOT the official rules of the Templars and Chantry.  That means it doesn't count for much.

It's part of the Codex and you love the Codex. The lack of Codex entries telling you that there can be abominations among the Tevinter magisters or Chasind shamans is evidence to you.

[Reika]

Wynne also points out that some of the chantry priests don't have any choice either, Ian. She has that story about the Revered Mother when Wynne was a teen. That priest was raised in the chantry with no choice but to become what she was.



So I don't believe Alistair was that big of an exception. I have a feeling that families in Ferelden (and likely other countries as well), dump their unwanted kids on the Chantry much like was done with the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages and renaissance.

[BlazingSpeed]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Now take this strength: Put the influence of a demon behind it that amplifies the strength, what do you have? Probably one of the most devastating forces on Thedas, Grey Wardens don't even abide by Chantry law and they still only keep one Grey Warden mage at a time to possibly minimize the risk.

Really? Whenever does anyone say anything about GWs fearing that their members will turn into abominations? Awakenings has both Anders and Velanna join you, not to mention that you might be a mage yourself. I think that, at best, the 'one mage rule' just means that the Chantry will not let you take more than one mage without having to conscript them and Duncan didn't to keep the peace and since it wasn't a Blight.

Bigdoser, they can leave after their Harrowing, with approval. I think maybe it's that lifelong supervision and needing the Circle's "rubber stamp" on your every decision that bothers you so much.

What they are allowed to do is to go on special missions (like going to Ostagar) and then they are supposed to report right back.

What about that Mage that owned Shale by the codex and Shale's conversations you can tell that he travelled around the country a lot plus he was working for Arl Eamon which meant he wasn't stuck at the circle tower for a good chunk of his life seeing that he lived in that small town doing research with "Kitty".

[IanPolaris]

Reika wrote...

Wynne also points out that some of the chantry priests don't have any choice either, Ian. She has that story about the Revered Mother when Wynne was a teen. That priest was raised in the chantry with no choice but to become what she was.

Again that's what Wynne claims, but I know of nothing that the chantry (or anyone else) does that FORCES Chantry Priests to take holy vows.  I think we need to distinquish between "force" as in "there are no other alternatives other than living in the street" and "force" as in "we will kill you if you don't".  I am using the later standard and only mages are subject to it.   Also Wynne is a chantry apologist so take her testimony with that in mind.

So I don't believe Alistair was that big of an exception. I have a feeling that families in Ferelden (and likely other countries as well), dump their unwanted kids on the Chantry much like was done with the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages and renaissance.

Yes, but even then those children weren't "forced" to take holy vows.  It was a choice between that, and losing all status and living in the street, but it was a choice.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

BlazingSpeed wrote...
What about that Mage that owned Shale by the codex and Shale's conversations you can tell that he travelled around the country a lot plus he was working for Arl Eamon which meant he wasn't stuck at the circle tower for a good chunk of his life seeing that he lived in that small town doing research with "Kitty".

Wilhelm was a Fereldan war hero who was in tight with First Enchanter Arlan and was given all sorts of special privledges that most mages wouldn't dream of having.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

Reika wrote...

Wynne also points out that some of the chantry priests don't have any choice either, Ian. She has that story about the Revered Mother when Wynne was a teen. That priest was raised in the chantry with no choice but to become what she was.

So I don't believe Alistair was that big of an exception. I have a feeling that families in Ferelden (and likely other countries as well), dump their unwanted kids on the Chantry much like was done with the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages and renaissance.

That's what I thought, too. Alistrair is not that special, I always thought he's one of many. Just being the King's bastard is a bit of an exception, just like being pegged as Arl Eamon's bastard at Redcliffe is a bit of an exception.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:39 .

[IanPolaris]

klarabella wrote...
It's part of the Codex and you love the Codex. The lack of Codex entries telling you that there can be abominations among the Tevinter magisters or Chasind shamans is evidence to you.

That codex is explicitly written from Alistair's PoV.  At no time was Alistair's life threatned nor was he threatned to be lobomized if he didn't take holy vows.

Please.  Perspective.

-Polaris

[nos_astra]

IanPolaris wrote...

That codex is explicitly written from Alistair's PoV.  At no time was Alistair's life threatned nor was he threatned to be lobomized if he didn't take holy vows.

Yes, but he had the choice of becoming a lyrium addled Chantry puppet and maybe a life in (solitary) confinement. It's different but close enough to say that living at the Circle is not that unbearable when compared to other social groups in Dragon Age.

Remember, being a Warden means death, too. Yet Alistair thinks he's better off being a Warden.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

BlazingSpeed wrote...



What about that Mage that owned Shale by the codex and Shale's conversations you can tell that he travelled around the country a lot plus he was working for Arl Eamon which meant he wasn't stuck at the circle tower for a good chunk of his life seeing that he lived in that small town doing research with "Kitty".

Wilhelm was one of those rare exceptions. Very rare. Perhaps because he was in the direct service of the Guerrins (the arls/rulers of Recliffe) that strings were pulled, the right people talked to, ect. Because Arls, being nobles, do have power, wealth, and influence, more than the average person. So the Chantry could be persuaded to release a mage into the direct service of such nobility, in exchange for "generous donations" or some other special form of patronage.

Plus, it helps to remember than Wilhelm was in the service of the Guerrins during the Orlesian occupation/Ferelden rebellion, so his legal status there remains sketchy. At the time he was in service of the rebels, he had no known family, at least as far as I remember it being mentioned in Stolen Throne. perhaps his service in the rebellion helped ease the difficulty in keeping him outside of the Circle. Whatever the case, given Wilhelms employers and history, his is a story of exception.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That codex is explicitly written from Alistair's PoV.  At no time was Alistair's life threatned nor was he threatned to be lobomized if he didn't take holy vows.

Yes, but he had the choice of becoming a lyrium addled Chantry puppet and maybe a life in (solitary) confinement. It's different but close enough to say that living at the Circle is not that unbearable when compared to other social groups in Dragon Age.

Remember, being a Warden means death, too. Yet Alistair thinks he's better off being a Warden.

Alistair, at that point in the game, has also been resigned to letting others decide his fate, rather than make descisions for himself and his own best interests. Since he's not been hardened at that point, he allows others to choose for him, and he doesn't resist, either. He is easily coerced into obeying the wishes of his superiors, and continues to do so, putting other peoples plans and desires before his own, unless he becomes hardened later on.

Thus, Alistair being conscripted could have alot more to do with the fact he doesn't want to make the choice himself to leave the Chantry, but have it made for him.

[Heretical Sound]

There’s a specific point that I think needs addressing.



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Tevinter and the much of Thedas have barely been touched upon by the lore. Drawing the conclusion that problems arising from abominations and magical misuse were not issues, cannot be sustained. Our knowledge of Tevinter and others is severely limited, both in terms of present-day Thedas and historically. We simply do not know.



Record keeping in the world of Thedas is intentionally unreliable and patchy. Indeed one of the key problems for the Dalish is that they struggle to reclaim knowledge of their past. So much of it having been destroyed or lost. All that we known of the Tevinter Empire is contained in a collection of stories and myths clouded by superstition. Much of the past is simply unknown. However this does not give anybody the prerogative to fill in the blanks, let alone do so in a manner that favours their own argument.



For consideration:

http://en.wikipedia...._from_ignorance

http://www.skepdic.com/ignorance.html

[Reika]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Alistair, at that point in the game, has also been resigned to letting others decide his fate, rather than make descisions for himself and his own best interests. Since he's not been hardened at that point, he allows others to choose for him, and he doesn't resist, either. He is easily coerced into obeying the wishes of his superiors, and continues to do so, putting other peoples plans and desires before his own, unless he becomes hardened later on.

Thus, Alistair being conscripted could have alot more to do with the fact he doesn't want to make the choice himself to leave the Chantry, but have it made for him.

Actually Alistair said he wanted to join the Wardens, Duncan had to conscript him because the Grand Cleric wasn't going to let Alistair go.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Reika wrote...


Actually Alistair said he wanted to join the Wardens, Duncan had to conscript him because the Grand Cleric wasn't going to let Alistair go.

And Alistair would not have rebelled against her descision. However, in Alistair's case, it could be that he wouldn't leave if the Grand Cleric didn't give her permission, legal or not. When you wake Eamon after the ashes and he outs forth his plan to make Alistair king, Alistair begins to protest, Eamon says a few words about duty and letting Loghain win, Alistair backs down, even though the idea of becoming king is horrifying and dreadful to him. But Eamon need only use a few words to get Alistair to accept something that he hates the idea of.

In Alistair's mind, the same could have happened. Because other than what he tells of about how he became a Grey warden, I don't see anything else stating that templars can be forced to remain in the order against their will. At that point, as far as Alistair is concerned, he allows others to decide his fate, as much as he hates it, and we see Eamon use emotional manipulation to keep Alistair in his place. 

[IanPolaris]

Heretical Sound wrote...
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Tevinter and the much of Thedas have barely been touched upon by the lore. Drawing the conclusion that problems arising from abominations and magical misuse were not issues, cannot be sustained. Our knowledge of Tevinter and others is severely limited, both in terms of present-day Thedas and historically. We simply do not know.

True, but in this case it works against the Chantry and not for it.  The recordkeeping may be sketchy, but it's good enough to record how and why (at least from the Chantry PoV) why the Exalted March against the Dales took place and how the Verses of Shartan were excluded at that time.  it's complete enough to have knowledge of the cyphers used by the early Chantry.  It's complete enough that we hear of the legendary heros and villians of lore...and if the Chantry were right, it would also mean that Abominations should be a frequent occurance and given how damaging we are told they are, that means they would show up in the codecies especially since it's in the Chantry's best interest to highlight such cases!

Thus what we have is indeed an absence of evidence that abominations are a problem outside of Chantry Control not just in history but in current cultures as well, and we know that this should not be so (except the Dwarves of course) if the Chantry were correct.

Draw the obvious conclusion.  The Chantry is hyping the danger for it's own gain.  That is, while mages do need training (obviously and never in question by anyone) the danager of mages becoming earthshaking abominations seems to be quite small and it seems that it's actually hard for a Demon to take over anyone (mage or not) unless that person deliberately gives consent....and that's not common.

In short, the entire justification for the circle is build on a LIE or at best a gross exaggeration of the true (that mages might slightly be more suspectible because they are 'aware' dreamers).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Reika wrote...

Actually Alistair said he wanted to join the Wardens, Duncan had to conscript him because the Grand Cleric wasn't going to let Alistair go.

It's also worth asking if Alistair is even of legal age.  If not, then the Grand-Cleric would indeed be his parentis locus, and would have the right to keep him there (in the Monastery).

Regardless, Skadi's point should be well taken when you hear Alistair speak of this.  There is a huge difference between, "You must stay in the tower or be killed/lobomized" and "You must stay in the monestary or be destitute".

-Polaris

[Reika]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 

And Alistair would not have rebelled against her descision. However, in Alistair's case, it could be that he wouldn't leave if the Grand Cleric didn't give her permission, legal or not. When you wake Eamon after the ashes and he outs forth his plan to make Alistair king, Alistair begins to protest, Eamon says a few words about duty and letting Loghain win, Alistair backs down, even though the idea of becoming king is horrifying and dreadful to him. But Eamon need only use a few words to get Alistair to accept something that he hates the idea of.

In Alistair's mind, the same could have happened. Because other than what he tells of about how he became a Grey warden, I don't see anything else stating that templars can be forced to remain in the order against their will. At that point, as far as Alistair is concerned, he allows others to decide his fate, as much as he hates it, and we see Eamon use emotional manipulation to keep Alistair in his place. 

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the Chantry had the same emotional grip on Alistair that Eamon did. Eamon had a chance to shape Alistair at his most formative years and the best time to put the apron strings on a person.

From what I could tell, Alistair would've found a way to break free of the Chantry, even if it meant going insane. And yes, I know his comment about killing the Grand Cleric and running around in his smallclothes was a joke, but I believe there was some element of truth in it.

edit:

IanPolaris wrote...

It's also worth asking if Alistair is
even of legal age.  If not, then the Grand-Cleric would indeed be his
parentis locus, and would have the right to keep him there (in the
Monastery).

Regardless, Skadi's point should be well taken when
you hear Alistair speak of this.  There is a huge difference between,
"You must stay in the tower or be killed/lobomized" and "You must stay
in the monestary or be destitute".

-Polaris

Um, I haven't been saying that what happens to the mages is right. If you'll read previous responses of mine, I've been agreeing with your stance about what happens to mages is wrong. I'm just commenting that I think some of the templars are just as stuck.

Modifié par Reika, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Reika wrote...

I see what you're saying, but I don't think the Chantry had the same emotional grip on Alistair that Eamon did. Eamon had a chance to shape Alistair at his most formative years and the best time to put the apron strings on a person.

From what I could tell, Alistair would've found a way to break free of the Chantry, even if it meant going insane. And yes, I know his comment about killing the Grand Cleric and running around in his smallclothes was a joke, but I believe there was some element of truth in it.

You don't?  Alistair was a weak man before you harden him, and for all that he hated being sent to the Chantry, his templar training was one of the few things he loved.  Also just because you might hate going there doesn't mean that a weak willed person (and unhardened Alistair certainly is that) would feel enabled to cut the strings on his own especially against official pressure (from Arl Eamon and the Chantry) against it.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:38 .

[IanPolaris]

Reika wrote...

Um, I haven't been saying that what happens to the mages is right. If you'll read previous responses of mine, I've been agreeing with your stance about what happens to mages is wrong. I'm just commenting that I think some of the templars are just as stuck.

Except that you have to take final vows to be a Templar and you can't be forced to take Vows (or they become meaningless for what should be obvious reasons).  Therefor the Templars aren't as stuck....until they are deliberately addicted to Lyrium which is also awful in it's own right.

-Polaris

[Reika]

Ian, we don't know if they're forced into it or not. Nor do we really know what happens to templars in training who refuse to take their vows. Granted there's nothing mentioned about rogue templars, so I have a feeling their either put into solitary (which is its own kind of hell), or other unpleasant things occur.

Considering what they do to mages, I'm not afraid to think that they might do equally unpleasant things to templars that won't agree. I suspect they let Alistair go only because Duncan's Conscription was so public. I'll try to find the link, but on one of the Bioware pages, they had the story about Alistair's Conscription.

And Codex Entry on Alistair's recruitment/conscription.

Modifié par Reika, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:49 .

[IanPolaris]

Reika wrote...

Ian, we don't know if they're forced into it or not. Nor do we really know what happens to templars in training who refuse to take their vows. Granted there's nothing mentioned about rogue templars, so I have a feeling their either put into solitary (which is its own kind of hell), or other unpleasant things occur.

It is an interesting question because surely there are those who would refuse to take their final vows.  Obviously a vow you are forced to take isn't worth anything at all.  My best guess is the Chantry does everything it can to keep such people within the Chantry system including guards and such....and from the common person's PoV, Templars are righteous heros

Considering what they do to mages, I'm not afraid to think that they might do equally unpleasant things to templars that won't agree. I suspect they let Alistair go only because Duncan's Conscription was so public. I'll try to find the link, but on one of the Bioware pages, they had the story about Alistair's Conscription.

The chant of light addresses mages (or at least magic) and people in Andrastian nations are scared of Mages.  That gives the chantry much more room to do nasty things to mages then to rogue Templars (of which neither is true).  Still it is an interesting question.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Reika wrote...

And Codex Entry on Alistair's recruitment/conscription.

I see nothing in there that says that Alistair is forced to take final vows or die.  Certainly it isn't a universal truth with Templars anyway (but it is with mages).

Alistair himself even says this when you mention that your home was the circle (if a mage) when he says, "That must of been a lot like me going to the monestary except you mages don't even get a choice."

-Polaris

[Reika]

What happens to Templars that refuse is something I've always wondered about. Granted most of them would happily take their vows, but I imagine there are others like Alistair who view the lyrium addiction with horror. And obviously the addiction is a well kept secret, so what happens to those people?



And in my experience, people can use their religion as an excuse for all sorts of nasty things. And don't get me wrong, I don't believe that everyone in the Chantry are some sort of monster. The templars and revered mothers that have been used as examples probably are good examples of your average person.



But what about the ones in power such as the Divine and the Grand Clerics? What kind of people are they really?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

@Reika: It isn't so much the emotional hold of the Chantry, but the fact that it was Eamon who sent him there in the first place. To openly rebel against Chantry and tell the Grand Cleric to go stuff herself might cause disgrace or embarassment for Eamon, which, perhaps Alistair feared would cause Eamon to completely disown him, or whatever. Pure speculation on Al;istair here.



As for the powerful Clerics in the Chantry, we get an example of that in the Stolen Throne, with the Grand Cleric pretty much supporting Meghren's rule as tyrant, but just as quick to support Maric as soon as it became clear he was on the winning side, so that at least tells me something of the general mindset of the higher ranked Clergy.



And when we speak of the templars, the lyrium addiction factor also lends support to my opinion that legally, if a templar wanted to leave the order, he could. If the chantry had full legal jurisdiction over templars, and could force them to remain, like it or not, then the fear of punishment or imp[risonment, or to declare them "excommunicated" would be generally sufficent to keep them in line. Yet they still get the templars hooked on the stuff. Given their position, they would have to know lyrium addiction is not only unecessary for a templar to perform their duties, but doesn't signifigantly improve, in reality, their abilities to justify permanent, debilitating addiction.



yet they still push it on templars. Which leads me to conclude the purpose behind lyrium pushing is not to improve templars abilities, but to enforce loyalty through a pusher/addict dynamic. Alistair even hints at this, when he points out that it's also no coincidence the Chantry are the only legal suppliers of the stuff, so...



In the end, I think alot of templars remain templars, even if they want to leave and could do so, because they got that lyrium collar and chain on them. So you end up with fellows like that Knight Commander Tavish in redcliffe, who secretly do favors for the Mage's collective in return for a bit of non-Chantry sanctioned lyrium.

[Heretical Sound]

IanPolaris wrote...

Draw the obvious conclusion. 


-Polaris

I'm afraid said obvious conclusion is somewhat of a misnomer. You have simply created a false dichotomy. The absence of evidence is not automatically indicative of inexistance. Neither does it prove existance. What can be concluded is that we do not know.
It could be just as easily said there are no accounts of abominations owing to the hostility between Tevinter and the rest Thedas resulting in a policy of isolation. Cases of abominations being concealed behind the walls the Tevinter circle. Without textual or visual evidence, assertions and speculation are all that one has to go with.