Addai67 wrote...
If you're arguing from human nature, it is human nature not to want to have your children taken away and locked up for the rest of their lives, subjected to who knows what.
So we agree that humans are inherently selfish and are more likely to put their own desires over the security of the rest of the world.
As for Connor's training... it was Jowan. Enough said! Not even a full mage and hardly competent, but the best Isolde could come up with when she had to work in secret. An entirely different story from what I'm talking about.
How competent do you think the average mage teacher is likely to be when you have a limited number spread all around Thedas? And how does that change the fact that there was no or limited oversight at home? Connor had at most a few months basic training, and little day to day supervision, which was probably still more than other kids would get if they lived at home while training. Who his teacher was doesn't matter. What does matter is that a whole lot of people in Redcliffe would still be alive if there had been a templar to notice the problem with Connor.
And being raised by the Circle is any better??
Yes. If only because Circle screw ups will stay in the circle where the damage they can cause is minimized.
Just because some people are bad parents doesn't mean it's okay for an oppressive system to take children out of their homes and lock them up. As I said upthread, if mages become problem mages, that is when you deal with them. We don't lock people up because they might become criminals.
The problem is that by the time they can be identified as a problem, the potential damage they'd cause is too high. And it's not as if they're living in tiny little prison cells, tortured every day. They're surrounded by their peers, have the opportunity to study their gifts in a place where they're given food, clothing and shelter. Is it ideal? No. But better than some of the alternatives.
By your same logic, the fault of a hypothetical problem mage child lies with that individual. Not sure how you can say with a straight face that the Circle system doesn't promote abuse of power. It's almost by definition abuse of power. Or do you really think it's okay to have someone ogling you in the bathroom? Free to kill you on no more than suspicion of wrongdoing? Entirely depriving you of freedom even though you've done nothing wrong?
The difference is that even a good kid can cause a lot of damage due to ignorance. And those that do chose to harm others are absolutely responsible for their own actions. That said, one can be raised to believe that using their powers to harm others is wrong. Or they can be raised to believe that the knife ears need to die for the sake of humanity.
How did we go from templars are rapist scum and the Chantry knows it to mages need to be given more privacy? Anyway, again, I'd argue that some changes need to be made but the overall system is fine.
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Poor people are less moral, then? That somehow, they would be more willing to risk the lives and minds of their family and children to get something?
No. Poor people are more poor. If you're struggling to get by you'll be more likely to use the power you have control of to make life easier on yourself and your family. And that doesn't mean you'll see it as risking the lives and minds of your family and children. And I never said it would only be poor people tempted, Howe is the most dispicable person in the game and he's certainly not poor.
leaving a mage kid with their family is a reusable bomb? Really? The Dalish don't think so. The Rivani and other non-Andrastian nations or tribes don't think so.
Again misrepresenting or just ignoring the argument I'm actually making. Mages are much more powerful than the average person and capable of destruction on a large scale. Fact. A parent has the ability to influence and direct their children. Usually a fact. Hence, a mage child is potentially a dangerous weapon in the hands of their parents, and you want to make damn sure that parent won't use it. I don't see how you can dispute that.
And we don't know what most of the other non-Andrastian nations think. You're only making assumptions. Or did I miss the codex entry that says that they all live at home with their normal families, minimal interactions with other mages, and no one to watch them for problems? Their methods are different yes, but we don't know how different. Or if it's even possible to use their methods in place of the Circles considering they're very different cultures. The Dalish for instance are relatively small closely knit groups, what works for them won't necessarily work for all of Fereldan.
Sure, parents don't always make the best choices for their kids. But the church and state don't exactly make the best choices either, if the number of times the Rite of Annullment has been called in Andrastian nations.
About three times per country in seven hundred years? That's extreme?
the Chantry system isn't doing very well preventing abominations if they end up generating so many. We know little of Tevinter, we do know that:
1. They have been a magocracy for almost 2000 years uninterrupted. To exis"t that long with that much magic, they have to have the best damned system in Thedas for preventing abominations.
2. As a magocracy, it is noble mage families that run the place. Families. In otherwords, they remain part of their family, inherit titles, ect.
1. You can only argue that if the Chantry's system fails sometime in the 1300 years after current game time. Once again, we don't know what method they use for preventing abominations, how many abominations they still end up generating, or their method of dealing with them when they show up.
2. If their Noble families are made up of mages, that means they are being raised by mages. Which is 75% of what I'm advocating. Mage children being taught by other mages to use their abilities responsibly from a young age, without too much influence from people who don't understand magic and/or aren't capable of dealing with the problems it can create.
Despite 3 Blights, the loss of much of their empire, constant attacks by the qunari, and a few Exhalted Marches called on them by the Chantry, they are still around. Obviously, they are doing something right.
But that doesn't mean that the Chantry is doing something wrong. We don't know enough to say their system is
better, just that it hasn't completely failed. Just as the current system run by the Chantry hasn't completely failed.
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I'm arguing mostly from human rights, not human nature. Although if we get down to it, ripping families apart always leads to chaos and suffering. That is human nature 101.
There are indications that there are other mages in Dalish clans besides the keepers. Nothing that I've ever heard about that says mages are killed. That would certainly give a different tone to Lanaya saying she beat out other candidates for first, except you're just making it up I guess.
