499 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong. Wynne says nothing about the Darkspawn living in the black city. Reread your own post!

-Polaris

I said she *implied* they might be found in the Black City, if anywhere. Since she also said no mage would be insane enough to go check, no one knows for sure.

Please tell me you know the definition of an implication...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:10 .

[IanPolaris]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong. Wynne says nothing about the Darkspawn living in the black city. Reread your own post!

-Polaris

I said she *implied* they might be found in the Black City, if anywhere. Since she also said no mage would be insane enough to go check, no one knows for sure.

Please tell me you know the definition of an implication...

I know the definition.  Do you?  I see nothing in there that even IMPLIES the Darkspawn live in the Black City. Nothing at all.

-Polaris

Edit:  Given the Chantry Story about the "Golden City" and the creation of the darkspawn, it is far more reasonable to say that her commeont about the Black City was referring to the taint not the darkspawn.  In short, she is cautioning you that no one knows what goes on in the Black City and so no one knows who or what lives in it and that is all.  I read no implication about darkspawn in the blackcity at all.  {The fact the Taint is related to the black city is well known of course.}

Modifié par IanPolaris, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:17 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Edit: I don't believe anyone said they live there, btw (except you). Being able to find something somewhere doesn't mean it *lives* there.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:18 .

[IanPolaris]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Nor should it.  Your quotes don't show what you think they do.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IF you talk to Wynne during Ostargar, she will say that the Darkspawns do not dwell in the Fade, or that if they did, it would be inside the Black City, and no sane mage would ever go and check on that theory. Or at least she says something along those lines.

I am bolding the key statement that is wrong.  By your own admission, Wynne never actually says this so the above statement is false just as I said.

-Polaris

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IF you talk to Wynne during Ostargar, she will say that the Darkspawns do not dwell in the Fade, or that if they did, it would be inside the Black City, and no sane mage would ever go and check on that theory. Or at least she says something along those lines.

I am bolding the key statement that is wrong.  By your own admission, Wynne never actually says this so the above statement is false just as I said.

-Polaris

And I colour coded the words at the end, so you can see that Emperor noted he's paraphrasing rather than quoting.

Again, here is the quote.

PC: I don't remember encountering darkspawn in the Fade.
Wynne: They do not live there, nor would any sane mage trespass as deeply into that realm as the Black City, which lies at its heart.

Wynne is the one who uses the word.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Why are we even arguing this? I'm still waiting for you to explain your claims that non-mages can become 'aware' in the Fade and at risk of becoming abominations without magic or demons being involved.

[IanPolaris]

Shadow,



Again you are wrong. Just admit it. Wynne NEVER says anything along those lines. What you quote doesn't even imply that the Darkspawn live in the black city. In fact all the game lore says that ALL inhabitants of the fade avoid it like the plague (so Wynne would have no way of knowing if darkspawn live there or not).



Sorry, but the quote is wrong (she never says that or anything 'along those lines') because implication isn't saying....and frankly she isn't even implying it. She's rambling.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Why are we even arguing this? I'm still waiting for you to explain your claims that non-mages can become 'aware' in the Fade and at risk of becoming abominations without magic or demons being involved.

The game lore specifically states that anyone can become aware in the fade (not just mages), and you hear directly (Harrowing Sloth demon) that it's the self-aware quality that demons find 'interesting'. 

It's pat of the game lore, like it or not.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anyone can become aware yes, but mages ARE aware, which is the big difference. A non-mage can only become aware through forced means. Nowhere in-game is anyhting else stated.

In the tower, we are forced into the Fade by the Sloth Demon, and even then most of the companions aren't aware that they are dreaming, only after acted upon by an outside force do tehy realize they are in the Fade.

In the Blackmarsh the entire party is sucked into the Fade, again by an outside force.



And what's this about Dwarves not having a Fade-connection? That is entirely wrong. Dwarves DO have a connection to the Fade. Gaider said that Dwarves have a connection to the Fade, they were just "deafned" to it, which is why they don't dream. Which is why a Dwarf like Oghren can be pulled into the Fade, and dream.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Why are we even arguing this? I'm still waiting for you to explain your claims that non-mages can become 'aware' in the Fade and at risk of becoming abominations without magic or demons being involved.

One can't become an abomination unless a demon is involved, but magic doesn't necessarily have to be involved.

If you remember the Calling, you remember there was an old Thaig where Maric and the Wardens got stuck, and a demon was luring, which forced them all into the fade when it took control of Fiona. The room they were in had the corpses of a bunch of dwarves, and one dwarf, the king or leader, still sitting on the throne. As they were investigating this (before the demon attacked) they realized that there had been something inside the dwarves tried to get away from. It turned out to be the demon, which had taken possession of the dwarven king. Since dwarves can't cast magic, nor were there any bodies of surface races present in the room, somehow, the dwarven king/leader had been possesed by a demon without the aid or involvement of magic.

Non-mages can and do become abominations. The reason mages are singled out is because they are more familiar, attractive targets than mundanes are, given their stronger connection to the Fade. Demons, like any predator, prefer prey that is easier to access and subdue. However, they can and do, on occasion, if the opportunity presents itself, take on prey other than mages.

As far as non mages being aware in the Fade, we see Sten has no problems realizing where he is. I would imagine it would be something similar to lucid dreaming, where people can awaken or become aware while dreaming. Mages do not necessarily dream "awake", the whole thing about mages is that they are the only ones who can actually enter the Fade awake in the first place, Mundanes must fall asleep and dream to get there, unless, of course, they are forced.

One does not need to be magically active to become demon dinner.

[LobselVith8]

Eber wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Heretical Sound,

I can easily see a King Alistair (Hardened) bucking the chantry and at least attempting to put the mages under crown control. I can especially see that if King Bhelen of Orzammar has done so with a circle run by First Enchanter Dagna.

It would only take one nation to force a crack to convince every king to do it just for self protection (and even now I am morally convinced that pretty much every king has a secret cadre of apostate mages...perhaps even bloodmages...that the Chantry knows nothing about).

-Polaris

That the new ruler will try to put the mages under crown control in some cases is established. The best dialogue about it is from the funeral of the PC mage. Below I quote Anora but I think Alistair's line are exactly the same (hardened or not). In the post game character fidelity is completely forgotten and it's all about who can praise the PC the most and make the player feel most satisfied. The speech Anora gives after Loghain kills the Archdemon would be the most obvious example of that, it's completly absurd how she praises the PC and makes the Warden the big hero when she could have focused on her father who's name still gives her weight, but yeah enough OT.

Anora: Knight Commander Gregoir, please step forward. Tell me what is the situation currently with the Circle of Magi?

Gregoir: Under control, though the Circle has been greatly weakened. Still there has been no further possessions.

Anora: I wish to see the Circle restored. However I understand the Veil at the tower is too weak? That being the case, I wish a new tower built--with the Chantrys aid [hear, hear!]. And it will bear the Hero's name.

Gregoir: A fine idea your majesty

Anora: And once the tower is built, Knight Commander, I am granting the New Circle autonomy. 

Gregoir: What!? But... your Majesty! I think what happened only proves--!

Anora: It proves what a  substansial contribution a mage can make. They have earned the opportunity to prove that they can watch themselves, Knight-Commander. don't you agree?

Now let's assume when Anora says "watch themselves" she means "be watched by someone under my control" and that the "let's do this to honor our great hero" is just the excuse she needs to get the Chantry, and the people, to accept her changes then it makes sense.

By the way Anora was sad and her eulogy stellar.

I agree that the eulogy that either Alistair or Anora give the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Magi is really good, but Gaider had stated in another thread that despite the proclamation made either at the funeral or the ceremony, the Circle of Magi in Ferelden isn't emancipated from the Chantry of Andraste:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

[LobselVith8]

Regarding abominations:

David Gaider wrote...

Regular people can be possessed by demons, and are still dangerous, but they are not abominations. Abominations have access to a mage's full power -- even a weak mage turned into an abomination is dangerous -- while a possessed human (or possessed anything) is only as dangerous as the demon that did the possessing.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Umm hello! The Dalish mages are few just like the apostates, and like I said they do overreact. But that doesn't mean blood mages and abominations should run wild.

Even Duncan claims that Blood Magic can be a dangerous thing and should be watched. And Uldred is proof enough how dangerous abominations are.

Picture the mages the tower incident if it was in Denerim.

There are Dalish clans all over Thedas, and there's even a semi-permanent settlement near the border of Rivain (another culture that has mages among them and no Chantry oversight). The Dalish clans are presided over by mages called Keepers, and mages live along nonmages. I don't see why the Chantry's method of imprisoning people for having magical ability should be kept when there are viable alternatives.

As for blood magic, Duncan admits that some Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to deal with the darkspawn.

The Water God wrote...

seeing as most of the good aligned characters support the chantry (Alistair, Wynne, Leliana) I honestly don't see how they're that corrupt. Sure they maybe overcautious with blood mages and abominations, but these things are a real threat and needs to be watched closely.

If the blood mages and abominations were allowed to run wild the government might see them as threat and exterminate all traces of magic.

Except the ancient elves of Arlathan, the emancipated elves of the Dales, the Dalish clans, the people of Rivain, and even the residents of Haven are examples that mages and nonmages can live side by side without destroying one another. Yes, the Chantry has the templars in place, but the examples I provided are alternatives to the Chantry's method, illustrating that there could be a better way than imprisoning and stripping away the rights of a person simply because they were born a mage.

[Addai]

Deztyn wrote...

I asked a pretty direct question. if you're not going to bother to read or respond to what I say, apparently even when you're quoting me, then I have no reason to continue discussing this with you. Seriously, don't even bother to answer this, unless you intend to actually, you know, answer.

What, that there are bad parents in Thedas?  I didn't answer because it's obvious that there are, and irrelevant.  The question is, do you punish the child for the rest of its life- and all children like him- because some parents might have been bad parents if they had been allowed to raise their children.   Rather than, you know, actually identifying where there is a problem and only dealing with those people.

How about you answer a question that's actually put to you?  Because a child might be raised by crackheads, does that mean you lock the child up for the rest of its life and subject it to an oppressive totalitarian prison system, then put it through a crack binge when it's older just to see if he will also become addictive, and kill him if he fails?  How about rounding up all people who show signs of addictive behavior and doing the same thing to them?

That is pretty much the Circle in a nutshell.  Just saying that the system works pretty well, that it's like some Harry Potter boarding school and only needs a few tweaks, is to obscure what is really going on.

Edit:  We also have indication from The Calling that the Circle in Orlais could actually be worse than what we see in Ferelden.  She describes her experience as the sex toy of an Orlesian lord who nearly beat her to death, then goes on to say that the Circle wasn't much different.  She considered drinking darkspawn blood a step up.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:19 .

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are Dalish clans all over Thedas, and there's even a semi-permanent settlement near the border of Rivain (another culture that has mages among them and no Chantry oversight). The Dalish clans are presided over by mages called Keepers, and mages live along nonmages. I don't see why the Chantry's method of imprisoning people for having magical ability should be kept when there are viable alternatives.

The Chasind tribes are led by shamans. And we simply don't know anything about how they deal with the dangerous side of magic. Maybe their magic is different? Maybe they have a special training? Maybe they simply consider being slaughtered by their possessed leader an honour or their clan/tribe deserved whatever happened to them?

As we have stated before, they are closely knitted social groups, maybe the danger of abuse is lower or maybe there are keepers who force their clan into submission. We don't know.

Aren't their pretty dark tales about the Dalish flying around?

Just because the subject hasn't been cleared up yet doesn't mean there isn't a downside.

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for blood magic, Duncan admits that some Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to deal with the darkspawn.

And he considers blood magic dangerous.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:44 .

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are Dalish clans all over Thedas, and there's even a semi-permanent settlement near the border of Rivain (another culture that has mages among them and no Chantry oversight). The Dalish clans are presided over by mages called Keepers, and mages live along nonmages. I don't see why the Chantry's method of imprisoning people for having magical ability should be kept when there are viable alternatives.

The Chasind tribes are led by shamans. And we simply don't know anything about how they deal with the dangerous side of magic. Maybe their magic is different? Maybe they have a special training? Maybe they simply consider being slaughtered by their possessed leader an honour or their clan/tribe deserved whatever happened to them?

As we have stated before, they are closely knitted social groups, maybe the danger of abuse is lower or maybe there are keepers who force their clan into submission. We don't know.

Aren't their pretty dark tales about the Dalish flying around?

Just because the subject hasn't been cleared up yet doesn't mean there isn't a downside.

No more dark than the ones about the humans who enslaved them, raped them, and destroyed their homeland, except it's clearly evident that the Dalish don't practice human sacrifice based on the Dalish clans that we do encounter in DA:O, and the Dalish story-tellers say that it was the humans who started the war, so it's really not an issue that's going to be resolved anytime soon.

Regarding mages and societies, I don't see how the example of the chasid diminishes from the evidence that mages can reside with nonmages and the world is still standing. We know the ancient elves and the emancipated elves of Arlathan and the Dales were lead by mages, as the Dalish clans are governed by mages and mimic the old ways of their previous societies. We know Rivain has mages who seem to allow spirits to have a symbiotic relationship with them, possibly in the same fashion that Wynne has with her own spirit. We know Father Eirik presided over the Haven Chantry (that's been around for hundreds of years as a Cult of Andraste), and Kolgrim may have been a mage because he knew what happened to the ashes without ever having entered the temple. Obviously, there are societies that don't have templars and are still standing.

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for blood magic, Duncan admits that some Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to deal with the darkspawn.

And he considers blood magic dangerous.

Isn't that the case why mages should be properly instructed on the use of their abilities? Duncan recognizes the potential danger of all magic being dangerous if a mage lacks control, but recognizes how vital it is against the darkspawn armies, who use their own brand of magic. I don't see anyone here saying that mages shouldn't be taught the proper use of their magical abilities, only that mages shouldn't be imprisoned for having magical ability.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Regarding mages and societies, I don't see how the example of the chasid diminishes from the evidence that mages can reside with nonmages and the world is still standing.

The point is: We don't know why the world is still standing. Are mages among the Chasind or Dalish more responsible, deeply altruistic beings who never would abuse their immense powers for their own benefits? What if they do?
Is their training superior to anything the Chantry-controlled world knows?

So far this is simply a plot hole and we don't know how and why these societies work and at what cost.

Modifié par klarabella, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:08 .

[maxernst]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Regarding mages and societies, I don't see how the example of the chasid diminishes from the evidence that mages can reside with nonmages and the world is still standing.

The point is: We don't know why the world is still standing. Are mages among the Chasind or Dalish more responsible, deeply altruistic beings who never would abuse their immense powers for their own benefits? What if they do?
Is their training superior to anything the Chantry-controlled world knows?

So far this is simply a plot hole and we don't know how and why these societies work and at what cost.

It's also worth noting that all of these societies are ruled by mages.  With the possible exception of Anderfels and Rivain (which we know little about), we know of no societies where political power is actually shared between mages and non-mages.  Either mages rule and everyone else is a second-class citizen, or mages are kept under the thumb of the non-magical authority by some means.

And if Zathrian is any indication, the Dalish are hardly poster-boys for responsible use of magic.

[nos_astra]

Velanna is another example for how Dalish mages can abuse their powers.

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Regarding mages and societies, I don't see how the example of the chasind diminishes from the evidence that mages can reside with nonmages and the world is still standing.

The point is: We don't know why the world is still standing. Are mages among the Chasind or Dalish more responsible, deeply altruistic beings who never would abuse their immense powers for their own benefits? What if they do?
Is their training superior to anything the Chantry-controlled world knows?

So far this is simply a plot hole and we don't know how and why these societies work and at what cost.

Their training is different, this is made clear when a Dalish Warden tells Morrigan that her people also practice magic that allows them to change shape as she can.

Plot hole? How is it a plot hole that there are alternatives to the Chantry that illustrate that mages and nonmages can co-exist? The only reason that the Chantry of Andraste, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi exist is because Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established them along with the Orlesian Empire.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Regarding mages and societies, I don't see how the example of the chasind diminishes from the evidence that mages can reside with nonmages and the world is still standing.

The point is: We don't know why the world is still standing. Are mages among the Chasind or Dalish more responsible, deeply altruistic beings who never would abuse their immense powers for their own benefits? What if they do?
Is their training superior to anything the Chantry-controlled world knows?

So far this is simply a plot hole and we don't know how and why these societies work and at what cost.

Their training is different, this is made clear when a Dalish Warden tells Morrigan that her people also practice magic that allows them to change shape as she can.

Plot hole? How is it a plot hole that there are alternatives to the Chantry that illustrate that mages and nonmages can co-exist? The only reason that the Chantry of Andraste, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi exist is because Emperor Kordillus Drakon I established them along with the Orlesian Empire.

Not only that but it's clear it was Andraste's intention for mages and mundanes to live side by side as well.  The circle isn't established until long after Andraste is dead, and it's established not as a way to fight abominations but to break what amounted to an anti-chantry mage's strike by the Divine at the time.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Plot hole isn't that they exist. The plot hole is that we have no way of knowing wether their way is superior, inferior or pretty much the same as the Chantry's.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Plot hole isn't that they exist. The plot hole is that we have no way of knowing wether their way is superior, inferior or pretty much the same as the Chantry's.

That is not a plot hole.  It's in fact evidence that the Chantry's position is unjustified.  Heck even Andraste and the early Chantry did NOT saction shutting off mages into (effective) prisons.  That came much later.

-Polaris

Edit:  Again I note that the circle system was NOT started because of an outcry for public safety.  It was designed by a Divine that wanted to break the power of mages within the chantry.  That's all.  The 'public safety' canard came later.  It's all in the "history of the circle' codecies.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:58 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Why are we even arguing this? I'm still waiting for you to explain your claims that non-mages can become 'aware' in the Fade and at risk of becoming abominations without magic or demons being involved.

One can't become an abomination unless a demon is involved, but magic doesn't necessarily have to be involved.

I might have been a little misunderstood if you were just using that quote, as it's at the tail end of the conversation. Polaris' stance is that non-mages can be trapped in the Fade (thus 'aware' in the Fade) and become possessed that way. He claims that to be 'trapped in the Fade' you don't need magic or demonic influence, which is what I was disputing here.

If you remember the Calling, you remember there was an old Thaig where Maric and the Wardens got stuck, and a demon was luring, which forced them all into the fade when it took control of Fiona. The room they were in had the corpses of a bunch of dwarves, and one dwarf, the king or leader, still sitting on the throne. As they were investigating this (before the demon attacked) they realized that there had been something inside the dwarves tried to get away from. It turned out to be the demon, which had taken possession of the dwarven king. Since dwarves can't cast magic, nor were there any bodies of surface races present in the room, somehow, the dwarven king/leader had been possesed by a demon without the aid or involvement of magic.

I haven't read the Calling, but nice info. There seems to be a difference between a simple possessed being and an abomination, however:

LobselVith8 wrote...

Regarding abominations:

David Gaider wrote...

Regular people can be possessed by demons, and are still dangerous, but they are not abominations. Abominations have access to a mage's full power -- even a weak mage turned into an abomination is dangerous -- while a possessed human (or possessed anything) is only as dangerous as the demon that did the possessing.

Thank you--very useful input to the discussion!

So only a mage can be an abomination.
Abomination = Demonic powers + full Mage powers
Possessed creature  = Demonic powers only

As far as non mages being aware in the Fade, we see Sten has no problems realizing where he is. I would imagine it would be something similar to lucid dreaming, where people can awaken or become aware while dreaming. Mages do not necessarily dream "awake", the whole thing about mages is that they are the only ones who can actually enter the Fade awake in the first place, Mundanes must fall asleep and dream to get there, unless, of course, they are forced.

Hmm...I have to dispute that just 'dreaming' means one is aware in the Fade. Do you have any Codex quotes or anything to support that?