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[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I'm not so sure it's the equivelant of a maximum security prison.  A prison, perhaps.  I don't see mages being kept in solitary, I don't see torture devices, I don't really see anything bad.

I see a communal setting where people can be around others with their own gifts.  Sure, the ones who backed Uldred didn't seem to like it, but those seemed to be the ones who wanted to practice blood magic.  Which is, you know, forbidden.  So, can they really be trusted?

A communal setting with bars on the doors is a prison.  The Harrowing or forced Tranquility is torture IMO.  They aren't even allowed outside, though as of WH we learned that was because of Anders' escape attempts.  Mages can also be slaughtered without any due process, simply upon suspicion of being possessed.

Well, if you want to put it that way, I . . .ummm . . . well . . . .okay, good points. 

I still view the Circle concept as a good one.  A place to teach, a place to nurture.  It is run in a rather strict way, and I agree it goes too far.  But I don't think just letting them out on their own, to go their own way once trained, is the way to go.

[Reika]

I just have issues about locking people up for all of their lives because of an accident of birth. Even psykers in 40k are given a chance at doing something with their lives (even if there's a chance of them being fed to the throne to keep the Emperor "alive") outside of their training.

[Addai]

TJPags wrote...

I still view the Circle concept as a good one.  A place to teach, a place to nurture.  It is run in a rather strict way, and I agree it goes too far.  But I don't think just letting them out on their own, to go their own way once trained, is the way to go.

Why not?  I can pick up a knife and stab someone with no provocation, and at that point I should be locked away.  A mage who never hurts anyone shouldn't be imprisoned for the rest of his or her life simply because they might, or might become an abomination.  Templars would still be needed, but they could act more like specialized law enforcement rather than jailers.

The Circle doesn't look very nurturing, either. 

[Reika]

I agree, after doing the mage origin, the tower felt incredibly cold. Quite frankly my little mage was delighted to become a Grey Warden, even if it meant being stuck with a former not-quite-templar.



And really, anyone with any kind of power is dangerous. Mages are just more obvious.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I still view the Circle concept as a good one.  A place to teach, a place to nurture.  It is run in a rather strict way, and I agree it goes too far.  But I don't think just letting them out on their own, to go their own way once trained, is the way to go.

Why not?  I can pick up a knife and stab someone with no provocation, and at that point I should be locked away.  A mage who never hurts anyone shouldn't be imprisoned for the rest of his or her life simply because they might, or might become an abomination.  Templars would still be needed, but they could act more like specialized law enforcement rather than jailers.

The Circle doesn't look very nurturing, either. 

Sure, and I can buy a gun and never shoot anyone or even try to in my life.  But there are safeguards in place when buying many firearms.

Same is true here - mages can be extremely destructive when they want to be.  Much more so than one person with a knife.  Besides, by that reasoning, Wynne - who set someone on fire as a child - should be locked away for life.  Uldred, who so far as we know did nothing before his failed insurection, would be walking around free.  Connor should have been walking around free, too - and that turned out well. 

As for nurturing - Wynne seemed to like it there.  Those kids we see in the beginning of the Broken Circle quest didn't seem to mind it so much.  Neither did the older ones we saw with Wynne.

Some will like it, some won't.  But when someone has the potential for unlimited destruction, shouldn't we keep an eye on them before they do something terrible?  Because finding them after the fact may be hard, and too late for those they hurt.

[ejoslin]

Well, the other half of the equation is, of course, that the common folk hate mages.  Yes, this is the chantry's fault, but there it is.  Mages living out on their own are at risk if they're discovered from lynch mobs.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 décembre 2010 - 03:20 .

[Ryzaki]

I have to agree with those saying the Circle is somewhat necessary. It of course could be better but it is somewhat necessary. Mages are too dangerous to be left unattended.



Now I woudn't mind a circle run by someone other than the Chantry, nor mages leaving once they've learned to resist demons. But they do need to be taught.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

Sure, and I can buy a gun and never shoot anyone or even try to in my life.  But there are safeguards in place when buying many firearms.

It's not at all a slam dunk that such laws are a good idea.  In the US at least it's somewhat contraversial.  There is a significant percentage of people in the US anyway that feel that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns, and you can make the same argument for magic.  In short, if someone abuses magic, then the authories (which almost certainly would include fellow mages as well as warriors with templar-like training) could and should come down on them especially hard.  But don't punish people for what they are.

Same is true here - mages can be extremely destructive when they want to be.  Much more so than one person with a knife.  Besides, by that reasoning, Wynne - who set someone on fire as a child - should be locked away for life.  Uldred, who so far as we know did nothing before his failed insurection, would be walking around free. 

Wynne set the kid on fire as a kid arguably in self-defense.  Had she thrown a rock and injured the other kid, the parents might get involved but even ina midaeval society, it wouldn't go beyond that (unless the other kid was a noble of course but that would apply equally to any commoner).  Again, I'm not seeing it.  Other cultures with magic don't seem to need to do this.

Connor should have been walking around free, too - and that turned out well. 

That was directly due to the malfaesence of both Isolde and Jowan.  Isolde for hiding her son's talent and Jowan for setting up Conner in a highly stressful situation where he was especially vunerable to demonic possession (by poisoning his father).  Conner was set up to fail almost as directly as those mages that have a demon directly implanted as part of their harrowing, and Conner (unsuprisingly...he was only six) was not prepared to handle it.

As for nurturing - Wynne seemed to like it there.  Those kids we see in the beginning of the Broken Circle quest didn't seem to mind it so much.  Neither did the older ones we saw with Wynne.

Wynne is a fundamentally sad, and broken down person, who has been defeated by the Chantry.  Therefore she thinks that others should accept that defeat as well.

Some will like it, some won't.  But when someone has the potential for unlimited destruction, shouldn't we keep an eye on them before they do something terrible?  Because finding them after the fact may be hard, and too late for those they hurt.

Sure but keeping an eye ==/== torture and lock away for life

In fact I am of the firm opinion, that the circle-tower system makes mages more vunerable to becoming abominations because of the hatred it generates on both sides.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Now I woudn't mind a circle run by someone other than the Chantry, nor mages leaving once they've learned to resist demons. But they do need to be taught.

The Dalish don't have possession problems.  Neither do the cultists, and for that matter neither did Ancient Tevinter.

I think that the Chantry is using abominations as an excuse to try to eliminate mages.

-Polaris

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, the other half of the equation is, of course, that the common folk hate mages.  Yes, this is the chantry's fault, but there it is.  Mages living out on their own are at risk if they're discovered from lynch mobs.  

That's why I said it would take a generation or two to change attitudes.  You only perpetuate the problem by treating mages like they're criminals or carrying an infectious disease.  Locking them away allows all sorts of fantastic rumors to spread about what mages are like.  If you had one living next door and leading a normal life, it would be harder to demonize them.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Now I woudn't mind a circle run by someone other than the Chantry, nor mages leaving once they've learned to resist demons. But they do need to be taught.

The Dalish don't have possession problems.  Neither do the cultists, and for that matter neither did Ancient Tevinter.

I think that the Chantry is using abominations as an excuse to try to eliminate mages.

-Polaris

Or just to control them.  By locking them away and controlling the lyrium trade, they gain a source of income and have a pretext to keep an army.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, the other half of the equation is, of course, that the common folk hate mages.  Yes, this is the chantry's fault, but there it is.  Mages living out on their own are at risk if they're discovered from lynch mobs.  

That's why I said it would take a generation or two to change attitudes.  You only perpetuate the problem by treating mages like they're criminals or carrying an infectious disease.  Locking them away allows all sorts of fantastic rumors to spread about what mages are like.  If you had one living next door and leading a normal life, it would be harder to demonize them.

Well...to be fair, it's not solely the Chantry's fault that mages are hated/feared. Thedas has *plenty* of history involving mages abusing their powers, and believing their powers give them the right to rule over the mundane. That way of thinking still lives on in the Tevinter Imperium, so we can't even claim the Chantry merely perpetuates old hatreds (Alarith, the elven shopkeeper in the alienage, was originally a Tevinter slave when he escaped the country with his family. Then there's Caladrius, of course...).

[Addai]

I know the history, but that again is a case of abuse which doesn't excuse the imprisonment and torture of innocent people who were born hundreds of years after the mage-ocracy was brought down. The Tevinters also used heinous blood magic rituals, mass murder basically. If they had not committed those crimes, they would not have been as powerful as they were. So using them to demonize all mages is, to say the least, overkill.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

I know the history, but that again is a case of abuse which doesn't excuse the imprisonment and torture of innocent people who were born hundreds of years after the mage-ocracy was brought down. The Tevinters also used heinous blood magic rituals, mass murder basically. If they had not committed those crimes, they would not have been as powerful as they were. So using them to demonize all mages is, to say the least, overkill.

Of course it is. But that's what prejudice is, and it's a powerful thing even in non-fantasy worlds.

[Sarah1281]

If the Dalish had a substantial abomination problem, they would likely not only cease to view magic as a great gift but would also stop making mages their leaders.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I can't recall any Dalish experiences with abominations that we're told ingame, offhand. Although (wild) sylvans are supposedly trees possessed by demons/spirits, and IIRC Zathrian summons (or creates?) some in the fight against the werewolves.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

Is it possible to say what the Dalish experience is with abominations? The Dalish are a disjointed nomadic society that needs to arrange the one meeting where all will be present years in advance. The one band that we do come across is heavily involved with demons.

I think it is.  First of all the Dalish clans generally do have more than two people trained in magic.  For example, if you side with the Werewolves and fight Zathrien's clan, you find that not only do Zathrian and Lanya know magic, but the Halla Herder and several others know magic as well...and substantial magic at that (the Halla Herder tosses fireballs for example and that's not beginner magic).

In the second place, remember that the Dalish have only been a nomadic people for a few centuries. Before that, they had their own nation (The Dales) which rejected the Chantry and was quite open with magic.  There was no abomination problem there.

If the abomination problem really were as bad as the chantry wants you to think it is, then Cultist Apostate groups, the Dalish, and even Tevinter (esp Old Tevinter) should all have been up to thier armpits with Abominations, (also don't forget the Chasind in this group either), yet we know rather emphatically that this was not so.  Indeed given the lack of evidence for abomonations (at least common ones...yet the Dallish clearly are aware of how they happen), and the fact that within the Chantry, they've had to kill off a circle tower about once every thirty years (a horrible record), it seems clear to me that far from protecting people from abominations, the Chantry's brain-dead attitude is actually creating the problem.

Near as I can tell, it's really, really hard for a demon to turn even a mage into an abomination and it generally requires the at least partial consent of the mage usually under severe emotional stress relating to the vice that demon reflects.  Who creates such an environment that might help such demons?  Why the Chantry of course.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...
But, Dalish clans seldom have more than two trained Magi (implying that there is training) so within a clan I would have thought that due to the small number of Magi we would see a correspondingly small number of occurrences of abominations.

In Zathrian's clan if you fight them (side with the Wolves), you discover that many member have rather advanced magic.  Also, there aren't that many mages period, and we can project out.  The rate for circle mages is known:  One Tower has to be destroyed every generation.  That would imply it should be a common occurance, but there is no evidence for that outside the chantry.

Indeed, magic is accepted and rather common in places outside of chantry influence (not just the Dales, but Tevinter, Chasind, etc) and there is very little fear of abomination (which there would be if abominations were as common as the chantry wants you to think).

-Polaris

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Glaucon wrote...

Doesn't Zathrian also bind the demon to Witherfang?  But, Dalish clans seldom have more than two trained Magi (implying that there is training) so within a clan I would have thought that due to the small number of Magi we would see a correspondingly small number of occurrences of abominations.

I *think* the Witherfang situation was different. The Lady of the Forest wasn't a demon or a Fade spirit, but the essence of the Brecillian Forest given form and bound to the wolf.

As to the no more than two trained magi per Dalish clan, I *know* this was said in game somewhere (Awakenings?) and I have to cry foul. Or if not foul, then at least 'WTF?' What do they do with their gifted children? Train them not to blow anyone up then leave it at that? What about mages like Velanna, who don't manage to become Keeper or First but are still obviously trained to a certain extent? I tend to think this piece of lore wasn't written properly, or well thought out.

Also Dalish Lore is largely hidden Lore, even unto the Dalish themselves, as it has to be passed from one Keeper to the next via years of training.  They may have secrets that protect them from abominations?

Entirely possible. I'm sure the elves have magic that humans still haven't been able to plunder/understand (in fact, the eluvian mirror is an example of this. They were elven artifacts and the human mages hadn't been able to figure out how to use them other than for long-distance communication), so why not protective techniques to ward off demons? We don't know, but it's possible.

IanPolaris wrote...
In the second place, remember that the Dalish have only been a nomadic people for a few centuries. Before that, they had their own nation (The Dales) which rejected the Chantry and was quite open with magic.  There was no abomination problem there.

How on Earth do you know they had no abomination problems? Just because we don't have any Codex entries to the contrary?

If the abomination problem really were as bad as the chantry wants you to think it is, then Cultist Apostate groups, the Dalish, and even Tevinter (esp Old Tevinter) should all have been up to thier armpits with Abominations, (also don't forget the Chasind in this group either), yet we know rather emphatically that this was not so.

Do we? Reference please?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
How on Earth do you know they had no abomination problems? Just because we don't have any Codex entries to the contrary?

Well if abominations were common occurence, one would expect codexes on them, no?
But I agree that lack of evidence is not evidence as it stands now.

I have always wanted more info on Ancient Tevinter and how it delt with those problems, if it even had them.
Though Chantry propaganda would potray them as the ultimate evil, what I see (which is little) of Ancient Tevinter is that of a great civilization that remains unrivalled in the history of Thedas. 

We know that the Chantry performed the Rite of Annulment 17 times in 700 years (so once every 40 years or so , across multiple countries). Potentially 18. Not exactly an endearing statistic. Not to mention the individual killing of apostates and tranquilization.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:27 .

[CalJones]

Since DA2 will see the fall of the Chantry to some degree, it'll be interesting to see how magic is viewed in that game.