499 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glaucon wrote...

It must just be me? I don't think that performing the Right of Annulment 17 times in 700 years is too bad a record? 700 years of Magi is a lot of Magi, people being people I would expect some rotten apples in the barrel? Also the Chantry are pretty quick to use that right as far as I can tell?

It's not a catastrophic number, I agree.
But when you say the Chantry annulled a circle every 40 years, once every generation (approx), then the number seems to argue that the current system is dealing with the symptoms (somewhat succesfully) and not really the roots. It is seemingly not reducing the probability of possession / magic related unrest (indeed as Ian argued, it might have even increased them).   

Glaucon wrote...
If we believe the Chantry version of events then even the great Tevinter Imperium suffered at the hands of demons. So if such a well schooled system of magic can fall foul of Demons then, to me, that further demonstrates the need for checks and balances with regard to Magic.

Did Ancient Tevinter require the mass murdering of mages every 40 years? I somehow doubt that, the mages were the ruling elite. But maybe they did, I don't know. That's why I want to learn more about Ancient Tevinter.

What the Chantry argues is that it was the Magisters who caused the Blight. While it might be true, this was an exceptional case of excess and one that required deliberate meddling in the Fade. Other than that, we don't know how the Imperium functionned as a rule, we only know about that one exception (if it's even true).  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Reika]

And as Alistair was quick to point out in Ostagar, the Chantry's version doesn't always equal the truth.



Sometimes I wonder if the true origins of the darkspawn is somehow more awful than the Chantry version.



As for DA2 and the Chantry, there's going to be reduction in the Chantry's power? Wonderful.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glaucon wrote...

Wynne also states that the Chantry version may only be allegory.

Think about it. If I was a leader of a disunited people that have become united under a religious banner, and I have to fight an empire right after the horrors of the blight, wouldn't it be smart for me to blame that disaster on that empire and have it incorperated in the religion?

But we don't know for sure if Andraste really said all this, the Chant of Light was something firmly established by Emperor Drakon of Orlais after the 2nd Blight (and Orlais' rival in Thedas was the Tevinter Imperium at the time).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 décembre 2010 - 05:03 .

[Reika]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But we don't know for sure if Andraste really said all this, the Chant of Light was something firmly established by Emperor Drakon of Orlais after the 2nd Blight (and Orlais' rival in Thedas was the Tevinter Imperium at the time).

Another thing is that supposedly Andraste said "Magic should serve man and never rule over him" which combined with her feelings about slavery... I wonder how horrified she'd be at what her followers have done to the mages.

I also wonder if some of the more subversive rumors might not have a grain of truth in them about Andraste being an extremely powerful mage. Because some of what was attributed to her could be done by a mage and if she were timing it with some fortuitous bad weather patterns would also explain how she managed to do what she did.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reika wrote...
I also wonder if some of the more subversive rumors might not have a grain of truth in them about Andraste being an extremely powerful mage. Because some of what was attributed to her could be done by a mage and if she were timing it with some fortuitous bad weather patterns would also explain how she managed to do what she did.

Before Awakening, I had a theory that the Maker was in fact a super Fade spirit. But apparently Justice dismisses the notion of a super spirit, and I find the idea that the Maker is just your average spirit and that Andraste is essentially like Wynne (brrrr), to be very anti-climactic.

And I still theorize that Maferath turned on Andraste for reasons other than jealousy (if that was even a reason). Maferath, when dealing with the Imperium, stopped the conquest and settled with what he had already taken. What if the split between Maferath and Andraste was strategic in nature? What if Andraste became obsessed with conquest and Maferath, wanting to avoid a pointless war, betrayed her?

But that's just speculation, because I find the Chantry version to be meeh.  

[Sarah1281]

Sometimes I wonder if the true origins of the darkspawn is somehow more awful than the Chantry version.

I must confess, I'm having difficulty imagining a more horrific origin than the one the Chantry believes and what we already know of darkspawn.

I'm not sure I would call it smart. Short term-ism absolutely, but in the long run a lie always comes undone. The Truth Will Out and all that.

Not always. The reason that people can say that the truth will always come out is because when it DOESN'T come out, people aren't going to know to use it as a counterpoint. If Andraste's followers did make a conscious decision to blame the darkspawn on their enemies then clearly the truth hasn't come out yet and at this point it seems unlikely that that will.

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not always. The reason that people can say that the truth will always come out is because when it DOESN'T come out, people aren't going to know to use it as a counterpoint. If Andraste's followers did make a conscious decision to blame the darkspawn on their enemies then clearly the truth hasn't come out yet and at this point it seems unlikely that that will.

I agree in this case.  I mean what proof is there that the Chantry is wrong?  Who is going to tell differently?  The old gods, the magisters of the old imperium?  They aren't around to tell their side of it.

Thus you have a myth that's become fact in the eyes of most of Thedas.  I didn't think of it myself, but deliberately and falsely blaming the imperium for the blights makes a horrifying degree of sense and frankly makes me think even less of the Chantry than I already do (and that's not easy).

As for Andraste herself, she may have had some special and powerful connects.  I don't know.  I do think given the legends, she likely was a mage herself and probably a bloodmage.

-Polaris

[BelgarathMTH]

Dave of Canada wrote...

When a lone child abomination is enough to cause the destruction of an entire castle filled with guards and the village, you've got to realize that the templars are just trying to protect the people.

You see groups of mages out there (as mentioned above) without abominations but if they do become one, who sufers from it? The commonfolk, the abomination would slaughter civilians and raze villages before anything can be done about it. A lone guard is (most likely) no match to the demon's magics and you have to rely on the templar's anti-magic training to deal with them.

What if there's none around? What if the demon "controls" the people? What if the demon makes more people possessed? You'd have a minor army ready to destroy a lot before any sense of defense could build up.

The Circle is a heavy risk, as proven in the Broken Circle questline where demons took over all the mages and took over the templar but only the Chantry and the Circle suffered for this. A defense was able to be mobilized (the Rite) and was on-route to deal with the problem before it hurt the people.

Though I find their cruelty and brutal judgment on the mages harsh, that's more the problem of an individual than the organization as a whole and if they were all more lenient than the mages would abuse it to get their way.

This. What Dave says is probably the answer I would try to make to the objections raised against my own position.

Every one should remember we are just speculating here about a work of fiction. The standard of proof for literary analysis is quotation from the source material.

But I will plead guilty to arguing from my emotional reaction to the characters and situations in the work that resemble situations and people from real life that resonate with me personally.

[IanPolaris]

BelgarathMTH wrote...
This. What Dave says is probably the answer I would try to make to the objections raised against my own position.

Every one should remember we are just speculating here about a work of fiction. The standard of proof for literary analysis is quotation from the source material.

But I will plead guilty to arguing from my emotional reaction to the characters and situations in the work that resemble situations and people from real life that resonate with me personally.

Again evidence would be nice.  In this admittedly fictional world, we have several examples of magic-using cultures, and only in one (the Andrastian Nations of Thedas) do abominations seem to be a real problem.  That means, far from being necessary to solve the problem, the Chantry/Circle near as I can tell may actually be creating it (or at least aggravating it to dangerous levels).

-Polaris

[BelgarathMTH]

I think that Dave did a good job of providing two specific examples from the source material that support his/our position: Redcliff and Broken Circle.

Polaris, I think you argue thoughtfully and well, but you can be countered by your own insistence on evidence. You seem to be providing the absence of examples from the source materials of instances of abominations occuring in the non-Andrastian cultures of Ferelden as strong and final proof of your position. (That the Chantry, Circle and Templars are actually causing what they seek to prevent through some sort of rigid-mindedness on their part.)

To me, that seems like weak proof indeed, as David Gaider and others could be writing examples of Dalish Abominations as we speak. Meanwhile, the Templars-are-necessary position has the benefit of quite a few very specific examples from the source materials, that while arguable, at least provide some support for the position.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 28 décembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[IanPolaris]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

I think that Dave did a good job of providing several specific examples from the source material that support his/our position.

I'm not convinced.  At best Dave showed that mages should be trained from a young age, but that's a very unremarkable position and one that everyone agrees with.

Polaris, I think you argue thoughtfully and well, but you can be countered by your own insistence on evidence. You seem to be providing the absence of examples from the source materials of instances of abominations occuring in the non-Andrastian cultures of Ferelden as strong and final proof of your position. (That the Chantry, Circle and Templars are actually causing what they seek to prevent through some sort of rigid-mindedness on their part.)

First of all, negative evidence IS valid evidence.  That is, if a theory requires that "Y" Phenomena be observed "X" times, and it's not, then it's evidence against that theory.  We know in Andrastian nations that abominations are a problem since the Rite of Annulment occures at a horrific rate (about once every 40 years or about once per generation), and we see a specific example of how the Chantry's own strictures against magic actually created the problem by in effect not only enabling but encouraging Uldred to make a bloodmagic shadowcircle right under the Chantry's nose AND by instilling precisely the negative emotions that demons would like.  That's in addition to all the other so-called Malifcarum and "Abominations" that the Templars routinely kill.

Yet in Ancient Tevinter (or even Modern Tevinter) we see little evidence of "Abominations Run Wild" yet if the Chantry were right, we should.  The same applies to the Dales who practice forbidden magic quite openly, or to the Chasind who should be having a "Super Leader" (read abomination) about once per generation (but don't).

To me, that seems like weak proof indeed, as David Gaider and others could be writing examples of Dalish Abominations as we speak. Meanwhile, the Templars-are-necessary position has the benefit of quite a few very specific examples from the source materials, that while arguable, at least provide some support for the position.

I disagree.  Negative evidence can be very compelling evidence indeed especially if it goes against the expections of a particular theory.  Morrigan supplies a terrific example when she asks Lelianna, "OK, so where are all the souls of the unbelievers?" as evidence against the Chantry (since per Chantry Lore the Fade should be full of souls of unbelievers....but it's not)

-Polaris

[Erika T]

Have any of you actually played the game and encountered an abomination in it? (rhetorical question).



You can easily kill an average abomination with bare hands, let alone if you use weapons. Is this the big danger the chantry and the templars want to protect the people from? A mage can turn into an abomination, a human can turn into a killer just as easily (I daresay, easier)



Uldreds case is not your everyday abomination. And Connor is entirely different - he could have been stopped AGES ago had Isolde told people that its him causing all the problems. Instead she was protecting him - nd look what happened.



I think training is necessary and mages should be sent to the circle in the same way some kids get sent to boarding school - with contact with families, time off, and freedom after the harrowing. Templars should exist as a special "mage-police" but they shouldnt assume that everyone is automatically a maleficar. Magesn pose no bigger threat to the people than non magic cpeople whose minds are infected with evil ideas and become traitors and killers.



It looks like secrecy and fear rules the people of ferelden when it comes to mages and this stems from the chantry, and because of secrecy and fear, the mages are imprisoned.. and because their imprisoned, they seek to break out, as is the nature of all living - and reach for forbidden knowledge to do so. Forbidden knowledge and the use of it (blood magic, etc) creates fear and we're back to the beginning.



And then there is the question of effectiveness: is the circle really working? (Ie - is the circle effective in training mages and keeping them in, are the mages largely under templay control?) Id say hardly. even if we do not take into account the storyline (uldred, Jowan and Connor), we still encounter a staggering number of mages around ferelden! Where did they come from? apostates? escaped from the chantry? never even went there? Id say I saw about 3X as many non-circle mages in DAO than circle mages. Maybe even more than that. Someone mentioned the dalish. In denerim, theres one in every corner. Even Jarvia has about 5 elven mages on her payroll. It doesnt look like the present arrangement is working well, even without uldred and connor...



Just some thoughts on this

[BelgarathMTH]

Polaris, okay, points taken, but how do we test the hypothesis that restrictions upon mages imposed by the Templars and the Circle should be loosened? Really, we can't, because you would write the story one way and I would write it another, and the devs of the game would write differently from either of us.

Since we're discussing fiction, we have to keep in mind that the whole thing is being made up as we go. Thus, "negative" evidence is weaker than it would be in real life, because it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the author will make up examples that strengthen or weaken either position in future installments of a work-in-progress.


The point here is merely to play the game. I choose to play it as a loyal member of the Circle, since that gameplay resonates with my personality. You perhaps choose to play as a separatist and a blood mage, which I would find reprehensible if we were both real people living in a real world where the conditions being argued actually existed.


So, we're basically having some fun here as though competing on separate debate teams. I think you do a good job using your skills.

I guess I'll go play the game now.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Erika T wrote...

Have any of you actually played the game and encountered an abomination in it? (rhetorical question).

You can easily kill an average abomination with bare hands, let alone if you use weapons. Is this the big danger the chantry and the templars want to protect the people from? A mage can turn into an abomination, a human can turn into a killer just as easily (I daresay, easier)

Uldreds case is not your everyday abomination. And Connor is entirely different - he could have been stopped AGES ago had Isolde told people that its him causing all the problems. Instead she was protecting him - nd look what happened.

I think training is necessary and mages should be sent to the circle in the same way some kids get sent to boarding school - with contact with families, time off, and freedom after the harrowing. Templars should exist as a special "mage-police" but they shouldnt assume that everyone is automatically a maleficar. Magesn pose no bigger threat to the people than non magic cpeople whose minds are infected with evil ideas and become traitors and killers.

It looks like secrecy and fear rules the people of ferelden when it comes to mages and this stems from the chantry, and because of secrecy and fear, the mages are imprisoned.. and because their imprisoned, they seek to break out, as is the nature of all living - and reach for forbidden knowledge to do so. Forbidden knowledge and the use of it (blood magic, etc) creates fear and we're back to the beginning.

And then there is the question of effectiveness: is the circle really working? (Ie - is the circle effective in training mages and keeping them in, are the mages largely under templay control?) Id say hardly. even if we do not take into account the storyline (uldred, Jowan and Connor), we still encounter a staggering number of mages around ferelden! Where did they come from? apostates? escaped from the chantry? never even went there? Id say I saw about 3X as many non-circle mages in DAO than circle mages. Maybe even more than that. Someone mentioned the dalish. In denerim, theres one in every corner. Even Jarvia has about 5 elven mages on her payroll. It doesnt look like the present arrangement is working well, even without uldred and connor...

Just some thoughts on this

Erika, I think you make some excellent and very practical points. Perhaps there is rampant fanaticism currently that is doing more harm than good in our fictional society.
 
As to the number of mages, I don't think the story suggests that mages stay in the Circle Tower for life. It is quite the opposite - a mage who is fully trained and passes the Harrowing must find a job, either in the Circle Tower or out in the world. I think what bothers most people who want fewer restrictions is that the mages have to have Circle approval for whatever they do. But "hired mercenary" is not necessarily a denied position, to my understanding. Thus, mages regularly hire out as what amounts to security guards. Military service is also a common job for mages. The game also has numerous examples of mage shopkeepers, researchers, librarians, and archaeologists.

Anyway, I always argue on the side of law and order, and the common good (I'm lawful good alignment to the core, both in games and in real life), but I also always look for balance and the golden mean between extremes. I also tend towards making the most merciful decision I can even when evil has been committed.

I think it speaks to the superlatively high quality of Dragon Age that it presents us with moral decisions while playing the game that can provoke such passionate philosophical and ethical debate and discussion.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Bigdoser]

I think the problem is that the mages don't get any freedom after they completed their harrowing, thats what I think causes mages to be pushed over the edge like uldred 1 simple thing called freedom. If mages had more freedom we would have less demon possesed people running around. Anyway that will never happen knowing the chantry attitude.

[Dave of Canada]

In the case of mages, we're told about how extremely powerful they are and how they sunk Arlathan down into the ground. This might be Chantry propaganda, I won't deny that the Chantry enforces the fear of mages into the people but that's because mages ARE a threat.

A mage doesn't even need to be an abomination to be a threat to the people, all it needs is one person's desire for power / influence and you'd have trouble on your hands. Blood Mages are able to control the minds of individuals, this is proven, though how much damage could they cause if a Blood Mage suddenly decided to try to control a noble? A general? The king? Trained from youth or not without templars, you'd have renegades out there. Templars hunting the apostates and intimidating the mages is simply a measure to limit the potential renegade mages out there.

Let's also not ignore the potential a mage has to do what he / she wants to. Setting people and probably buildings on fire, raising the dead to serve you to fight, heal themselves and their potential allies, freeze people and that's all within the boundaries of what the player can use themselves.

Now take this strength: Put the influence of a demon behind it that amplifies the strength, what do you have? Probably one of the most devastating forces on Thedas, Grey Wardens don't even abide by Chantry law and they still only keep one Grey Warden mage at a time to possibly minimize the risk.

Erika T wrote...

Have any of you actually played the game and encountered an abomination in it? (rhetorical question).

You can easily kill an average abomination with bare hands, let alone if you use weapons. Is this the big danger the chantry and the templars want to protect the people from? A mage can turn into an abomination, a human can turn into a killer just as easily (I daresay, easier)

That's gameplay mechanics, I can punch a dragon to death but realistically she'd devour my character in a single bite. The game is more about stats and fighting than realism.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Dave of Canada]

Bigdoser wrote...

I think the problem is that the mages don't get any freedom after they completed their harrowing, thats what I think causes mages to be pushed over the edge like uldred 1 simple thing called freedom. If mages had more freedom we would have less demon possesed people running around. Anyway that will never happen knowing the chantry attitude.

Uldred wasn't too smart if that's the reason behind siding with a demon, what's the point of freedom if you're simply the pawn of another, more malevolent, master?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:40 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Once again, I agree with Dave that the potential for destruction justifies much of the restrictiveness of the Circle. The fear of the people is not irrational, as it would be in our real world in, say, the Salem witch trials.

In fictional Ferelden, mages really ARE a danger to the general population.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:26 .

[Bigdoser]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

I think the problem is that the mages don't get any freedom after they completed their harrowing, thats what I think causes mages to be pushed over the edge like uldred 1 simple thing called freedom. If mages had more freedom we would have less demon possesed people running around. Anyway that will never happen knowing the chantry attitude.

Uldred wasn't too smart if that's he reason behind siding with a demon, what's the point of freedom if you're simply the pawn of another, more malevolent, master?

You can be suprised at how desperate people become when they are being suppresed/ wanting more freedom. Well most of us don't know what it is like being locked up in a tower for most of your life. I mean a mage can't bear a title they can't start a family either that would be quite a sucky life imo also if they try and escape well we saw what the templars will do if anyone tries and escape. As I said before mages should be sent to the circle once they pass their harrowing they should be free to leave.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Bigdoser, they can leave after their Harrowing, with approval. I think maybe it's that lifelong supervision and needing the Circle's "rubber stamp" on your every decision that bothers you so much.



In Uldred's case, I don't think he was motivated merely by wanting to be free. The guy wanted POWER. That's one of the most dangerous motivations in humanity, either fictional or real.