499 réponses à ce sujet

[Reika]

*headdesk*



I've been saying all along that mages need training. I've never once said they don't need it. What I'm saying, and what several others are saying, is that they should be allowed to lead normal lives, or as close to normal as a mage can get. Keep templars to act as a mage-police, but the current system doesn't work.

[Bigdoser]

Reika wrote...

*headdesk*

I've been saying all along that mages need training. I've never once said they don't need it. What I'm saying, and what several others are saying, is that they should be allowed to lead normal lives, or as close to normal as a mage can get. Keep templars to act as a mage-police, but the current system doesn't work.

I said this on the very first page but people tend to ignore my posts most of the time.

[Reika]

Bigdoser wrote...

I said this on the very first page but people tend to ignore my posts most of the time.

I've been saying it all along, but at this point, I don't think either side is going to convince the other.

[Bigdoser]

Its always like this on this forum I am not suprised.

[BelgarathMTH]

Bigdoser wrote...

So Belgarath what about the part where a mage cannot have a family or bear a title? Do you agree that mages cannot have none of these things? Is it right that wynne had her child taken away and she never saw him/her again? Is it right that if they try and escape they can be killed? Many men and women can go far if they want freedom.

As for the restriction against marriage and family, I would say that that has to do with wanting to keep the population of mages very small, since it is apparently a recessive gene. That is an arguable law, but if challenged, should be done through lawful means. It will be very hard to convince the people, 99 or so percent of whom are defenseless against what mages can do to them, that allowing more mages will be a good thing. But if you could get such a resolution passed in a general election in a democratic society, then more power to you.

The holding of titles is, to someone from a contemporary democratic frame of mind, an anachronism and a bad thing in itself. I would certainly agree that Ferelden needs to advance through the painful process of demcraticization, but our own real history has demonstrated that that takes at least a couple of hundred years, and is completely unrelated to the hypothetical existence of a population of humans capable of mass destruction against a helpless general population.

Katherine Kurtz's "Chronicles of the Deryni" series of books tackles a similar set of issues in a fictional feudal medieval society, and she very thoroughly develops the proposition that there are no easy answers to the questions posed by this particular literary theme. (Minority population of super-powered metahumans living in a larger population of regular humans who are helpless and defenseless against them in one-on-one conflicts, but who wind up controlling and oppressing the metahumans through force of government and overwhelming numbers.)

Stan Lee's X-Men series comes to mind. And the Smallville series on the CW.  And Babylon 5. There are countless other examples, I'm sure. The topic we're wrestling with here is a very common theme in fantasy and sci-fi.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:39 .

[Addai]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

We are born with this power. It makes perfect sense that we must be raised as children by people with the same power, who can therefore discipline us into well-adjusted and compassionate adults. No parent without magic has any hope of successfully raising a mage child. It will always turn out just like Isolde and Connor for those who try. Always.

Well that's a very blanket statement (not gonna touch use of the first person here LOL).  You simply don't and can't know that.  I'm all for mage children being trained, but think it would work best for everyone if they're allowed to live with their families and be trained at special schools that are in the community.  As I said way upthread, you would have to transition towards this kind of system over a couple generations, and it would take a serious change in attitudes from the ground up and not only from the powers that be.  It's not only more practical, however, it's the only humane way.  If mages abuse their power, then their freedom can be taken away, but it's not right to treat them as criminals simply for being born with extraordinary gifts.  If the Circle were a mage university instead of a prison, people would probably be trying to get in, rather than trying to overthrow the government because of an environment of paranoia and oppression.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Addai67 wrote...

BelgarathMTH wrote...

We are born with this power. It makes perfect sense that we must be raised as children by people with the same power, who can therefore discipline us into well-adjusted and compassionate adults. No parent without magic has any hope of successfully raising a mage child. It will always turn out just like Isolde and Connor for those who try. Always.

Well that's a very blanket statement (not gonna touch use of the first person here LOL).  You simply don't and can't know that.  I'm all for mage children being trained, but think it would work best for everyone if they're allowed to live with their families and be trained at special schools that are in the community.  As I said way upthread, you would have to transition towards this kind of system over a couple generations, and it would take a serious change in attitudes from the ground up and not only from the powers that be.  It's not only more practical, however, it's the only humane way.  If mages abuse their power, then their freedom can be taken away, but it's not right to treat them as criminals simply for being born with extraordinary gifts.  If the Circle were a mage university instead of a prison, people would probably be trying to get in, rather than trying to overthrow the government because of an environment of paranoia and oppression.

Addai, I agree with you in principle. In practice, I'm not so sure, especially since the population would have to agree to mage children growing up alongside their own "normal" children. What if you were a parent and your children had been set on fire and killed by an out-of-control mage child? What if your whole family had been burned to death and then raised as skeletons by an out-of-control mage adult? There is simply no easy way out of this problem. If it were real, hard decisions would have to be made.

(The first person use was just getting into role-playing the game, and a bit of a joke, since I see a lot of these argumentative discussions that we players have in here as part of the game.)

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I would find myself in the middle ground between Belgarath and Addai.

I am all for mage academies that are relatively isolated from the rest geographically. However, I am against parents of mages not being allowed to visit and cutting the mages off from society as if they are something to be feared only. Even though I am more of a Magneto sympathizer, turning the Circles into something like the Xavier Institute for mutants (X-men) would be a nice moderate step.

Also, mages must not be secluded from society. That's why my favorite fraternity is the Lucrosians. They focus on accumulating wealth to gain economic and thus political influence. That's a good way to include the Circle into the system and give them a role. The instances where mages were used in war were rare and not enough to encourage reforms. Giving them a role in peace time would help integrate them into society better.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[BelgarathMTH]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I would find myself in the middle ground between Belgarath and Addai.

I am all for mage academies that are relatively isolated from the rest geographically. However, I am against parents of mages not being allowed to visit and cutting the mages off from society as if they are something to be feared only. Even though I am more of a Magneto sympathizer, turning the Circles into something like the Xavier Institute for mutants (X-men) would be a nice moderate step.

Also, mages must not be secluded from society. That's why my favorite fraternity is the Lucrosians. They focus on accumulating wealth to gain economic and thus political influence. That's a good way to include the Circle into the system and give them a role. The instances where mages were used in war were rare and not enough to encourage reforms. Giving them a role in peace time would help integrate them into society better.

Very interesting, Knight. I think you may have the ideal compromise solution. I would feel more comfortable if you had said you were an Xavier sympathizer, however. This is in danger of getting way off topic, but let's remember that Magneto has no qualms whatsoever about murdering regular humans, and in huge numbers, to gain "mage" freedom. It also doesn't bother him to kill other "mages" if they get in his way.

I believe that some of my more emotional responses in this thread have been to a perceived likeness to Magneto among some of the posters.

[Reika]

Umm, I've been advocating something similar to Xavier's attitude (even though I could never stand the character. ), I think a lot of us have been.

[KnightofPhoenix]

BelgarathMTH wrote...
This is in danger of getting way off topic, but let's remember that Magneto has no qualms whatsoever about murdering regular humans, and in huge numbers, to gain "mage" freedom. It also doesn't bother him to kill other "mages" if they get in his way.

Considering what he personally experienced and how humans are generally dicks in the Marvel universe (at least X-men, they once exterminated millions of mutants on Genosha), then I can sympathize with him, albeit I wouldn't be in complete agreement.

But I don't want to get OT too much. If this is of interest to you, I recommend checking out this:
http://www.magnetowasright.com/
Interesting read.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[BelgarathMTH]

Thanks for the link, Knight. I'll have to study it and get back to you. Right now, it's about bedtime where I live, so I'm going to have to sign off and come back to it tomorrow and see what else gets posted.



Thanks for the invigorating discussion being held in this thread, everyone. It's always kind of fascinating when a series of posts goes up so fast that it's almost like a chatroom in real time.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well if abominations were common occurence, one would expect codexes on them, no?

I agree, but you have to take the locality into consideration too. DA:O is set in Ferelden, so it's unlikely we're going to get a lot of Codices on abominations (or lack thereof) in Tevinter. The Dalish? If there was the option for a Dalish Mage origin then I would have expected some more info. Alas, we don't get anything. :/

I have always wanted more info on Ancient Tevinter and how it delt with those problems, if it even had them.
Though Chantry propaganda would potray them as the ultimate evil, what I see (which is little) of Ancient Tevinter is that of a great civilization that remains unrivalled in the history of Thedas.

Looks like we might get some in DA2, at any rate. I'm looking forward to some more information as well.

We know that the Chantry performed the Rite of Annulment 17 times in 700 years (so once every 40 years or so , across multiple countries). Potentially 18. Not exactly an endearing statistic. Not to mention the individual killing of apostates and tranquilization.

We don't know how many Circle Towers there are, do we? At any rate, it sounds like the Rite is performed less frequently overall than the Denerim Alienage is purged. :/

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
I agree, but you have to take the locality into consideration too. DA:O is set in Ferelden, so it's unlikely we're going to get a lot of Codices on abominations (or lack thereof) in Tevinter. The Dalish? If there was the option for a Dalish Mage origin then I would have expected some more info. Alas, we don't get anything. :/

True.

We don't know how many Circle Towers there are, do we? At any rate, it sounds like the Rite is performed less frequently overall than the Denerim Alienage is purged. :/

I think every nation that adheres to the Orlesian Chantry has at least one. Which means there is at least 6 (the HQ being in Cumberland, Orlais, Ferelden, Anderfels, Antiva, Nevarra). Maybe 7 if Kirkwall also has a Circle, which is likely.

At least 7 then. So I guess each Circle has been annuled 2.5 times each in 700 years.

Like I said before, it's not a catastrophic number, especially since we don't know the info and stats concerning how Ancient Tevinter delt with this. But it's not that great a number either (on the whole and not only taking Circles individually) and I believe there is some place for reform.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2010 - 02:18 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The main reason for the mages to be in the tower is, it is quick to locate when things go wrong. If mages were running willy nilly all over the place, when one of them went insane/rogue/became possessed, it would take a long time to track him down. Sure the Templars got phylacteries, but it still takes a long time to march halfway across the land.



Also the mages are in the tower to protect them, just as much as to protect others. Mages may be powerful, but a frenzied lynch mob still poses a threat.

[Addai]

You find them the way you find any criminal- through law enforcement. Templars are posted wherever there is a Chantry or monastery, so they are all throughout the country.

[Reika]

There wouldn't be frenzied lynch mobs all that often if the Chantry actually got rid of the seemingly incessant preaching against mages.



And while in theory the towers protect the mages, how they're actually set up doesn't. It makes it worse, and as others have said so much more eloquently than I that the atmosphere of the various Circles just makes it that much more likely for a mage to lose it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Addai67 wrote...

You find them the way you find any criminal- through law enforcement. Templars are posted wherever there is a Chantry or monastery, so they are all throughout the country.

By the time they are found, an abomination could've laid waste to several villages.

Reika wrote...

There wouldn't be frenzied lynch mobs all that often if the Chantry actually got rid of the seemingly incessant preaching against mages.

And while in theory the towers protect the mages, how they're actually set up doesn't. It makes it worse, and as others have said so much more eloquently than I that the atmosphere of the various Circles just makes it that much more likely for a mage to lose it.

What atmosphere? To be surrounded by more of your kind? To be assured much learning and guidance? Heck, its not like they are forbidden all contact with the outside world, or even for that matter to go outside the tower. They just have to earn it. A reasonable demand, considering what could go wrong.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 29 décembre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Sarah1281]

What atmosphere? To be surrounded by more of your kind? To be assured much learning and guidance? Heck, its not like they are forbidden all contact with the outside world, or even for that matter to go outside the tower. They just have to earn it. A reasonable demand, considering what could go wrong.

I know YMMV and whatnot but I'm really wondering what game you were playing...

[Reika]

Sorry, Emperor, I'm with Sarah. What I saw of the Tower was a cold, hostile environment. What I heard of the teachers with the apprentices wasn't guidance but more like "If you don't shield right the first time, I'll fry you."



Which isn't exactly a good way to encourage a scared kid.

[frostajulie]

BelgarathMTH wrote...



I'm sorry Frosta, but I have to disagree with your analogy to slavery. Mages are not merely innocent children of a certain race, persecuted merely because they are born into that race..

ok but you would be wrong and completely missing the point.

[LupusYondergirl]

Since this is part of the major plotline of my fic I've put a lot of thought into the subject...

The Circle can effectively lobotomize whoever they want, put them to work as shopkeepers and enchanters, and thus profit from their efforts. Do mages who might get hired as healers get a paycheck? Somehow I doubt that.

Slavery= Forcing someone to work for you and profiting by their labors, yes?

So how is that NOT slavery? Because they may be dangerous otherwise? It really doesn't matter... If they were merely kept in the tower and trained I would see the argument against it being slavery. However, they are kept in the tower, trained, and then used as a source of income for the Chantry. It is the final point that makes it fairly clear cut, IMO. And it is especially horrifying since, really, what happens if no one "dangerous" comes up through the apprentice ranks and no one opts out of the harrowing? Do they have a quota of tranquils needed to keep things running? They rely on the money those people bring in- Irving will tell you so in no uncertain words. So do they start picking people who would otherwise have been harrowed just because they need someone to bring in money? Are your chances of being forced into tranquility dependent on the chantry's current financial needs as much as your own skills or temperament? And who besides the First Enchanter and Knight Commander would ever know?

They apparently need only "eyewitness testimony" to convict someone of being a blood mage, as well. Jowan wasn't going to get a trial, the eyewitnesses word trumped his automatically. What happens if some apprentice gets on the wrong side of a templar or two? Their word alone would be enough to have them lobotomized, regardless of innocence.



I think, slavery comparisons aside, if we want to get into historical parallels the closest I could come up with in modern times was the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. Innocent people taken from their homes and lives, locked away in a prison for no reason other than what they were born as. Sure, they could live among others 'of their kind' and weren't tortured regularly, but bars on the windows and a guard at the door is a prison, no matter how nice the amenities may be.

The justification was that they could prove a danger to others.

It is one of the most disgusting and reprehensible things my country has ever done. It is so horrifying that the US government, who aren't exactly fond of admitting when they screw up, have issued official apologies to survivors of those prison camps and their descendants.



I think it comes down to your opinions on human rights. Me, I'm a card carrying ACLU member and a hardcore liberal as well as a Buddhist, so obviously have fairly strong beliefs about human rights. I think every sentient being deserves freedom, a chance to find happiness, and a life without needless pain and suffering. I think people shouldn't be punished until they've actually committed a crime. I think racial profiling in real life is abhorrent. Because of this I see a system that preemptively locks people away (as children no less) for life because they may prove a danger to be inherently morally flawed. Preemptive imprisonment of people who have committed no crimes is, by the standards of civilized societies, horrifying. We don't even force people with severe mental illnesses of the sort that make them prone to violence into institutions until they have proven on an individual basis that they are a danger to themselves or others.

If you are the sort who thinks that racial profiling is a good idea, and that preemptively locking innocent people up because they belong to a group that may prove dangerous is fine, well, that's your business and I'm sure I'll be shrieking at you from the other side of a protest some day. Look for the loud redhead with the overly verbose sign.



I'm finding the strawman arguments that see no difference between "preemptive life imprisonment is wrong" and "abominations gone wild are awesome!" fairly amusing, though. Since really, it's fairly absurd. You've got a lot of people arguing against imprisoning mages from childhood for the rest of their lives, and it seems like most of the people on the other side refuse to acknowledge that there is a wide range of options between "lock them up and throw away the key" and "let's let children set people on fire, go without training, and bring a plague of demons and abominations down upon the land."



Whew... long post is long...

[Sarah1281]

@Lupus: I saw this topic and immediately thought of you so I was wondering when you'd show up.

Very eloquently put.