499 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

I'd also like to point out that Rage Abominations, the "weakest" abomination there is, can take out three fully trained Templars when possessing a cat. I think that's saying something.

[Korva]

Of course the situation of the mages isn't ideal, but there IS no ideal solution for it and to pretend otherwise would be silly IMO. And of course there is the possibility for the abuse of power, but as amply demonstrated in the game, the possibility for the abuse of magical power is much greater and much more vicious. *shrug* From an IC perspective, I'd always support the Chantry and the Templar -- not just because my character would be a believer, but also because she doesn't want something uncontrollable and unpredictable running around free to mess with everyone's mind and body at their whim.



That said, I'd support some more freedom for those who have proven themselves, and definitely greater accountability for the Templar.

[Annie_Dear]

Are templars bad? No.



The way the Chantry treats mages? Yes, that's bad.

[Addai]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Personally, I don't understand how Connor and such are "victims" of the system. Connor hid from the templars, he did a deal with a demon and got possessed. What do you think would happen without the templars? Would Connor suddenly not have been hidden? Unlikely, Isolde was ashame her son was a mage. Not that the templars were there.

Part of Isolde's fears (let's not blame this on Connor, 'kay?  he's a little kid) is that her son would be disinherited and locked away.  The harshness of what's done to mage children intensifies both the pushback and also reinforces the very notions that make people ashamed to admit they or a loved one are mages.  If the Chantry was not stoking paranoia, these attitudes might even reverse themselves to where people would be proud of being so gifted.

The simple fact of the matter is that many people (in this thread) are letting their anti-Chantry sentiment enter the conversation, we're not dealing with the Chantry in the matter but the Templars. Are the Templars necessary? I'd say yes, they are.

And I haven't seen many (any?) people saying templars aren't necessary.  As police, not as jailors.

Trained or no, Mages will develop sense of power and yearn for more.

And so do templars or anyone with power.

One (common) argument brought up in this thread is how come we don't see abominations elsewhere is a little simple, reason we don't see them in say... the Wilds, with the Dragon Cultists and such is simple; Gameplay mechanics.

That's only a supposition.  We don't hear of it in codex or the novels, either.  Not as being rampant threats.

As to your other post about the possessed cat taking out three templars, again I ask, where did that occur?  Circles are like beacons to demons.  Put a bunch of people using magic (templars also use magic, after all) in one place, stoke the oppression, violence, lust, greed, and desperation, and all it takes is a match being lit to the powder keg.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Maria13]

I don't know whether it was a rage abomination but that's what Anders boasts about his first cat... That he became possessed and slew three Templars... It might be a twisted mage joke...

[IanPolaris]

Sigh,



I can not believe that people are openly supporting bigotry and slavery just because of an accident of birth even in a fictional world. It makes me a sad panda to think such attitudes still exist even now. [And yes, pro-chantry posters, that is *precisely* what you are advocating and defending. Given this extreme position, the burden of proof is on you to show it's actually necessary. I've shown at least empirical evidence that strongly indicates it is not.]



-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

Was going to keep arguing but since I'm such a monster, might as well stop having an opinion.

IanPolaris wrote...

Sigh,

I can not believe that people are openly supporting bigotry and slavery just because of an accident of birth even in a fictional world. It makes me a sad panda to think such attitudes still exist even now. [And yes, pro-chantry posters, that is *precisely* what you are advocating and defending. Given this extreme position, the burden of proof is on you to show it's actually necessary. I've shown at least empirical evidence that strongly indicates it is not.]

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Was going to keep arguing but since I'm such a monster, might as well stop having an opinion.

On this, yep.  Some things can not be defended.  Slavery is near the top of the list.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

Maria13 wrote...

I don't know whether it was a rage abomination but that's what Anders boasts about his first cat... That he became possessed and slew three Templars... It might be a twisted mage joke...

One thing before I leave, Anders says Mr.Wiggums was posessed by a rage demon. I had the conversation last night ingame so I remember clearly.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maria13 wrote...

I don't know whether it was a rage abomination but that's what Anders boasts about his first cat... That he became possessed and slew three Templars... It might be a twisted mage joke...

One thing before I leave, Anders says Mr.Wiggums was posessed by a rage demon. I had the conversation last night ingame so I remember clearly.

This begs the question of why we don't see possessed animales running amuck through Fereldan (and actually during the blight itself we do hear of an increased occurance).  Frankly that seems to have far less to do with mages and more to do with the Veil becoming thin in places with a lot of death....like say a horde of darkspawn?

In any event it contraindicates that mages are inherent demon bombs just waiting to go off.  Indeed we see explicitly that anyone (mage or not) can become an abomintation if they let the demon in (see Kitty in Honneleth).
If anything, the legal slavery that the mages are forced to endure make this more and not less likely.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

...Wait so the mages in the tower are slaves now?



*blinks* Okay then.

[Sarah1281]

I think that there is a nuance between slavery and servitude. Servitude comes from law whereas slavery comes from force. The Chantry have the law to support placing Magi into Servitude whereas slavery is illegal in Ferelden.

...Really? So slave-holding societies never made slavery legal? Servitude is voluntary, slavery is forced. Mages try to leave and force is used.

Unlikely, Isolde was ashame her son was a mage. Not that the templars were there. Isolde, being a pious woman, hated the fact that Connor was a mage (thus unable to gather any titles for himself) and would be taken away.

Pious woman or not, Isolde's primary concern seemed to be that Connor would be taken away from her forever if he were found out. It wasn't about being freaking EMBARRASSED. Not to mention there was the fact that he'd no longer be an heir to Redcliffe that his parents needed to worry about.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Wait so the mages in the tower are slaves now?

*blinks* Okay then.

Aren't they?  For no reason other then an accident of birth, mages have no legal rights and are owned body and soul (including their very children) by the Chantry with armed Templars there to enforce it....including being forced to be lobomized in order to make the Chantry money if the chantry so desires.

Sounds like slavery to me.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

Right. I'm just going to disagree with that assessment.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. I'm just going to disagree with that assessment.

So the forced labor and internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII wasn't essentially "legalised" slavery driven by fear?  It wasn't a stain on US honor?

It's actually very much the same thing except what's being done to the mages is far worse and for far longer and for far less cause.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Right. I'm just going to disagree with that assessment.

So the forced labor and internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII wasn't essentially "legalised" slavery driven by fear?  It wasn't a stain on US honor?

It's actually very much the same thing except what's being done to the mages is far worse and for far longer and for far less cause.

-Polaris

Riight because the Japanese Americans had the potential to become abominations and were there for training.

Like I said I disagree.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Riight because the Japanese Americans had the potential to become abominations and were there for training.

Like I said I disagree.

Actually yes if you substitute "spy" and/or sabateur for "abomination".  The point is that the overwhelming majority were only guilty of being of Japanese ancestry but fear got them locked up in camps (often labour camps...read slaves) for the duration of the war.

The US has admitted it was a stain on it's honor.  Why can't you?  If anything, the comparison is a very mild one. 

What has been done to the mage is rephrensible and there is no good solid positive evidence to justify it.  Only fear mongering.

-Polaris

[Dean_the_Young]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sigh,

I can not believe that people are openly supporting bigotry and slavery just because of an accident of birth even in a fictional world. It makes me a sad panda to think such attitudes still exist even now. [And yes, pro-chantry posters, that is *precisely* what you are advocating and defending. Given this extreme position, the burden of proof is on you to show it's actually necessary. I've shown at least empirical evidence that strongly indicates it is not.]

-Polaris

Ah, I see the problem here.

You haven't paid attention to anything anyone else has said, and instead just substituted your own placeholder positions for our posts.

And your own, strangely enough.

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Riight because the Japanese Americans had the potential to become abominations and were there for training.

Like I said I disagree.

Actually yes if you substitute "spy" and/or sabateur for "abomination".  The point is that the overwhelming majority were only guilty of being of Japanese ancestry but fear got them locked up in camps (often labour camps...read slaves) for the duration of the war.

The US has admitted it was a stain on it's honor.  Why can't you?  If anything, the comparison is a very mild one. 

What has been done to the mage is rephrensible and there is no good solid positive evidence to justify it.  Only fear mongering.

-Polaris

???

Where did I defend the Japanese being locked away? 

I said it was not comparable to Mages being slaves.

Do not place words in my mouth.

[Raelis25]

The thing I just can't understand is why mages are not allowed to keep contact with their families at all, and how this inane law is connected to the possibility of their becoming abominations. It makes zero sense.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well this discussion, which was interesting yesterday, became unpleasant. Was that really necessary?

[Ryzaki]

Raelis25 wrote...

The thing I just can't understand is why mages are not allowed to keep contact with their families at all, and how this inane law is connected to the possibility of their becoming abominations. It makes zero sense.

Now this I agree with. The no other human contact bit is complete nonsense.

So while I agree that the Circle is necessary some of it's rules could use a serious upheaval.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 décembre 2010 - 10:07 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Raelis25 wrote...

The thing I just can't understand is why mages are not allowed to keep contact with their families at all, and how this inane law is connected to the possibility of their becoming abominations. It makes zero sense.

From what I understand, mages become vulnerable to demons when under stress or when they are too emotional.
Perhaps the logic here is that if mages are to be trained in seclusion, and their families visit but don't stay, mages might miss them and that can be used to a demon's advantage. It was afterall Connor's love for his father that the demon exploited.

Not condoning the logic, I think fear will produce the same result, if not make it worse. But that may be the Chantry's logic there, I am not sure.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 décembre 2010 - 10:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Riight because the Japanese Americans had the potential to become abominations and were there for training.

Like I said I disagree.

Actually yes if you substitute "spy" and/or sabateur for "abomination".  The point is that the overwhelming majority were only guilty of being of Japanese ancestry but fear got them locked up in camps (often labour camps...read slaves) for the duration of the war.

A skilled spy or sabateur had the realistic potential to kill a few dozen in acts of sabatoge.

Abominations, even from the weak and untrained, can potentially wipe out hundreds, and see entire settlements destroyed.


Hm, it's almost like there's a significant difference in the potential threat between an American citizen based on his ethnic coloring, and people with superpowers who can light people on fire by accident...

The US has admitted it was a stain on it's honor.  Why can't you?  If anything, the comparison is a very mild one.

Where has he once suggested it was not?

What has been done to the mage is rephrensible and there is no good solid positive evidence to justify it.  Only fear mongering.

-Polaris

Uldred, Conner, and Flemeth aren't proof of the potential dangers of rampant magic?

I mean, they are, what, two thirds water, so they might not be that solid, and Uldred and Flemeth were never particularly good. But that's slander against Conner, at least.