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[Kronner]

YMIR - Stasis
Eclipse Vanguard is just enemy with more Barrier points. You can lock them down with a Singularity or use Stasis. What's the problem?

As for useful abilities:
Pull is awesome, short cooldown, fast projectile
Singularity is one of the best CC powers in the game
Throw can stagger enemy, or instakill if you use Pull first and you are outdoors. Can be good alternative to Pull+Warp in that case
Warp needs no comment

only Shockwave sucks.

The protections are not even hard to take down.

Modifié par Kronner, 16 janvier 2011 - 08:57 .

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...

Oh cmon TST, Adept has no problems with defenses. Use your squad to remove them and they toy with the enemies as you like. .

Yes,thats easy possible with critters.Not with the "big boys and boys".Even a eclipse vanguard require more then one warp before someone could actually toy around with them.
It doesnt matter anyway.Crowd control has to work when enemies are the most dangerous,not after that when most biotics just become fancy finishing mooves that save some ammo.

[Kronner]

tonnactus wrote...

Yes,thats easy possible with critters.Not with the "big boys and boys".Even a eclipse vanguard require more then one warp before someone could actually toy around with them.
It doesnt matter anyway.Crowd control has to work when enemies are the most dangerous,not after that when most biotics just become fancy finishing mooves that save some ammo.

So defense stripping powers are there just to save ammo as well? Fancy starting move?
Enemies do not have low health and high defense rating. It is usually split in half.

[Bozorgmehr]

But that's the problem. BW could give enemies huge health on Insanity but biotics would make game just as easy as on Casual - just some extra shots before enemies die. I don't want that, and I don't like that in ME1. Adding defenses is the lesser evil IMHO.

AI isn't going to be changed dramatically any time soon, number of enemies they can render (with current hardware limitations - consoles especially) isn't going to be increased either. Something had to be done, and for me it works quite good - you still die often (playing aggressively), but there's sufficient time and space to have biotic fun.

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...


So defense stripping powers are there just to save ammo as well?

Excluding incinerate and inferno ammo-yes.Or what else did they do? Overload only overheats enemy weapons after shields are down and i never see that really working either.

[Kronner]

tonnactus wrote...

Excluding incinerate and inferno ammo-yes.Or what else did they do? Overload only overheats enemy weapons after shields are down and i never see that really working either.

They instantly remove defense, allowing you to use whatever biotics or tech CC powers you want. That can't be done that quickly using weapons. The tougher enemies are there to spice it up a bit.

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

But that's the problem. BW could give enemies huge health on Insanity but biotics would make game just as easy as on Casual -

You played Dragon Age,right? How fun would it be to whittle down enemie armor with staffs on nightmare before using a spell?
Dragon Age increased physical and mental resistence of bosses on harder modes,but dont make them completly immune to spells. Because that is just cheap and dumb.By the way,even "white mages" used devastating spells that could put an entire party in dangerous situations.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 09:13 .

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...


They instantly remove defense, allowing you to use whatever biotics or tech CC powers you want. That can't be done that quickly using weapons.

It could.With ammo "powers" ,especially the squad version.Or with the arc projector(one shot is enough to strip whole groups of standard enemies of any defense they have). And ammo "powers" have the advantage that you activate them once and use them the whole mission without cooldowns.

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

You played Dragon Age,right? How fun would it be to whittle down enemie armor with staffs on nightmare before using a spell?
Dragon Age increased physical and mental resistence of bosses on harder modes,but dont make them completly immune to spells. Because that is just cheap and dumb.By the way,even "white mages" used devastating spells that could put an entire party in dangerous situations.

I have much more fun playing ME2. DAO is a great game, but combat isn't as cool like in ME2 IMHO. I actually hope BW does something similar to DA2 like they did with ME1 -> ME2.

Don't worry, I don't think enemies will have shields in DA2

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I have much more fun playing ME2.

Seriously?? For me,its quite the opposite.
So much more options not even for mages,but also rogues(bard/ranger) and warriors.

Would be fun if only warriors could use enchanted weapons though...

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 09:53 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Kronner wrote...

The protections are not even hard to take down.

doesnt matter. im nothing more then a singularity spammer while those protections are up. when i bring those defenses down, i dont need to use throw or pull becuase i accidentally killed them with the remainder of my clip. you seem to be confusing "playing like an adept" to "playing like a soldier, followed by playing like an adept, if your lucky." in the same token its almost pointless to have wide versions of pull/throw because theres barely ever more then one enemy with defenses stripped anyways. tonnactus is even more on point. i dont need throw when one or 2 more shots will kill them anyways. for cripes sakes melee is even more of a CC ability then throw is on protected enemies.

debuffs work imediately, but one overload or one warp wont completely clear off those protections. im still fireing my weapon to clean up the remaining protection. i just have to make sure i dont totally kill them with my guns or playing as this kind of adept would be more like playing a soldier, without any abilities, with only the SMG.

thats just not playing an adept at all.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 16 janvier 2011 - 10:38 .

[Zahe]

tonnactus wrote...

You played Dragon Age,right? How fun would it be to whittle down enemie armor with staffs on nightmare before using a spell?
Dragon Age increased physical and mental resistence of bosses on harder modes,but dont make them completly immune to spells. Because that is just cheap and dumb.By the way,even "white mages" used devastating spells that could put an entire party in dangerous situations.

This isn't Dragon Age, different games cant be compared in such simplistic manner. It would be like whining that you couldn't crouch behind cover to avoid arrows in DA.

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i shouldnt have said "your doing it wrong." i should have said theres only one ability thats functional for each class, so your using one ability for 40 hours of gameplay. if your trying to convince me using pull on a protected enemy in order to get a half second stagger resembles playing an adept, then yes, i think your being forced to play the game wrong.

nobodys reminded of GTA when they play ME2. although GTA does have more or just as many RPG elements asME2 does, so i guess we can compare those two games as well.

If you want to faceroll everything as an Adept, by all means go play ME1. The protection on a normal enemy goes down in mere seconds, so saying Singularity is the only good spell Adepts have is not only wrong it is ****ing dumb as well.

My point with the GTA remark was that you cannot say "Game X is just like Game Y, except for this or that importat part of the gameplay" and expect people to take it seriously.

[tonnactus]

Zahe wrote...

This isn't Dragon Age, different games cant be compared in such simplistic manner.

You dont list any reason why they couldnt be compared.Claiming alone isnt enough.

[Zahe]

tonnactus wrote...

Zahe wrote...

This isn't Dragon Age, different games cant be compared in such simplistic manner.

You dont list any reason why they couldnt be compared.Claiming alone isnt enough.

Because it isn't a shooter, because it got autoattack and because it isn't based on cover-based combat. I really don't see this discussion going far if I have to explain everything, even stuff that is obvious.

[tonnactus]

Zahe wrote...

Because it isn't a shooter, because it got autoattack and because it isn't based on cover-based combat.

And what have this to do with how both games handle bosses/higher difficulties?

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 11:00 .

[Zahe]

It has everything with the fact that you cannot compare them. The gameplay is so different that making such an attempt is pretty much futile.

ME is much faster for example, a six second CD is regarded as semi-long, whereas in DA it would be extremely short. Mages in DA pay the price off their spells with a long CD and the fact that it costs mana. In ME2 the price is that you cannot use CC on enemies with protection. Imagine if Mages in DA got Glyph of Paralysis on a three second CD. Imagine if they got Mass Paralysis on a six second CD. That is what ME2 would be like if they made CC usable on protection.

[tonnactus]

Zahe wrote...

ME is much faster for example, a six second CD is regarded as semi-long, whereas in DA it would be extremely short

Mages in DA pay the price off their spells with a long CD and the fact that it costs mana.

Only four level spells have long cooldowns.Dragon Age didnt have a global cooldown system and a mage can basicly spam spells like fireball every ten seconds even as an arcane warrior with combat magic on.Mana isnt a issue at all.Making lesser lyrium potions doesnt cost much and the ingredients are not limited in this game.
Despite that,bosses are not immune to magic.

[Kronner]

tonnactus wrote...

Zahe wrote...

ME is much faster for example, a six second CD is regarded as semi-long, whereas in DA it would be extremely short

Mages in DA pay the price off their spells with a long CD and the fact that it costs mana.

Only four level spells have long cooldowns.Dragon Age didnt have a global cooldown system and a mage can basicly spam spells like fireball every ten seconds even as an arcane warrior with combat magic on.Mana isnt a issue at all.Making lesser lyrium potions doesnt cost much and the ingredients are not limited in this game.
Despite that,bosses are not immune to magic.

And can you lift the boss, making him/her helplessly fly in the air and then proceed to kite shooting? I didn't think so.

What's next? Comparing Mass Effect 2 to Baldur's Gate?

[tonnactus]

Kronner wrote...

And can you lift the boss, making him/her helplessly fly in the air and then proceed to kite shooting?

I doesnt matter how you make a boss helpless. There are a lot of spells that exactly do that,even low level ones like horror are able to basicly "freeze" even boss ogres. (and they are damagable in the time they are incacipated)

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 11:34 .

[Zahe]

tonnactus wrote...

Zahe wrote...

ME is much faster for example, a six second CD is regarded as semi-long, whereas in DA it would be extremely short

Mages in DA pay the price off their spells with a long CD and the fact that it costs mana.

Only four level spells have long cooldowns.Dragon Age didnt have a global cooldown system and a mage can basicly spam spells like fireball every ten seconds even as an arcane warrior with combat magic on.Mana isnt a issue at all.Making lesser lyrium potions doesnt cost much and the ingredients are not limited in this game.
Despite that,bosses are not immune to magic.

Yeah he can, if we disregard that he is gonna burn through his party with friendly fire. Look, even if this comparison worked your point wouldn't be in favor of your argument. DA was too ****ing easy due to a lot of the bull**** described and probably would be better off with some sort of system that prevents you from CCing the dangerous foe / every single enemy in the room. Playing as a Mage in particular was insultingly simple.

[tonnactus]

Zahe wrote...



Look, even if this comparison worked your point wouldn't be in favor of your argument. DA was too ****ing easy

Like Mass Effect 2 is for all classes.With the only difference that the options are far more limited.

due to a lot of the bull**** described and probably would be better off with some sort of system that prevents you from CCing the dangerous foe / every single enemy in the room. Playing as a Mage in particular was insultingly simple.

At least Dragon Age has enemy mages that could use all the spells the player himself could use. Enemy biotics in Mass Effect 2 are just warp bots,nothing more(except one Dlc). And engineers just spam incinerate all the day.

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 janvier 2011 - 12:03 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Zahe wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i shouldnt have said "your doing it wrong." i should have said theres only one ability thats functional for each class, so your using one ability for 40 hours of gameplay. if your trying to convince me using pull on a protected enemy in order to get a half second stagger resembles playing an adept, then yes, i think your being forced to play the game wrong.

nobodys reminded of GTA when they play ME2. although GTA does have more or just as many RPG elements asME2 does, so i guess we can compare those two games as well.

If you want to faceroll everything as an Adept, by all means go play ME1. The protection on a normal enemy goes down in mere seconds, so saying Singularity is the only good spell Adepts have is not only wrong it is ****ing dumb as well.

My point with the GTA remark was that you cannot say "Game X is just like Game Y, except for this or that importat part of the gameplay" and expect people to take it seriously.

are you claiming pull, throw, shockwave, slam, and dominate work on protected enemies? because they dont. and please dont try to convince me a half second stager resembles playing an adept. stasis and singularity are the only biotic abilities worth any merit on insainty if your trying to play a CC class, which if youve forgetton, is supposed to be the adept. if you dont think thats limiting the adept, then i dont know how else to explain it.

i really dont care about comparing games. its not a bad thing ME2 resembles gears of war because gears is also an awesome game. thats fine with me if they want to steal some great concepts from other games, i just wish they woulda stole some more from ME1.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 16 janvier 2011 - 11:56 .

[Zahe]

tonnactus wrote...

Like Mass Effect 2 is for all classes.With the only difference that the options are far more limited.

I agree, Insanity is too easy as well. The difference is that I cannot just rightclick to win in ME2, which I can do in DA.
Also, the options is far from limited. My second playthrough total and my first on Insanity was with an Engineer using no Medigels and only enough HW to get the badge. I found it too easy even then, so playing builds that aren't cookiecutter shouldn't be a problem especially considering I am far from a gaming god. If I can do it then anyone can.

At least Dragon Age has enemy mages could use all the spells the player himself could use. Enemy biotics in Mass Effect 2 are just warp bots,nothing more(except one Dlc). And engineers just spam incinerate all the day.

The difference is the fact that you can do **** about it in DA since you can control all characters. ME doesn't have heals, ME doesn't have companions with easy acces to defensive spells or CCs and if your main character dies it is game over. I agree that the enemies should have more abilities, but making them CC heavy is dumb since you cannot do anything about it except kill them before they get a chance to blow their load all over you. Something among the lines of disabling your gun, slowing you or making your tech abilities backfire would be awesome. Giving them Singularity or Throw would not.

are you claiming pull, throw, shockwave, slam, and dominate work
on protected enemies? because they dont. and please dont try to
convince me a half second stager resembles playing an adept. stasis and
singularity are the only biotic abilities worth any merit on insainty if
your trying to play a CC class, which if youve forgetton, is supposed
to be the adept. if you dont think thats limiting the adept, then i dont
know how else to explain it.

I'm claiming you can strip their defenses with a mix of shooting and using your squadmates, only to proceed to blow them up. Health is the hardest single bar to deplete, in contrary to popular belief. At least versus something that isn't Geth.

i really dont care about comparing
games. its not a bad thing ME2 resembles gears of war because gears is
also an awesome game. thats fine with me if they want to steal some
great concepts from other games, i just wish they woulda stole some more
from ME1.

I wouldn't know, never played GoW. Just found it somewhat ridicilous that people can say "Game X is like game Y except *insert important part of gameplay here*" and from there claim game X is a ripoff.

Modifié par Zahe, 17 janvier 2011 - 12:09 .

[The Spamming Troll]

say what you want about health vs armor/shields/barrier, but an enemy with only health isnt a worry to me. its the ones with protections im worried about.

i actually liked getting put on my ass in ME1. people always talk about being tactical and having enemies that have the potential to knock you on your ass from across the screen would be fine with me. maybe not singularity but having just throw like ME1 definitely added to the feeling that im not the only biotic capable of putting someone on their ass.

maybe add enemies with abilities for insanity, not enemy protections!?!?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 17 janvier 2011 - 12:11 .

[Zahe]

Having abilities that practically instakills you whose only counter is "not getting hit" is dumb. Knocking out of cover is fine, we already have that. Knocking out of cover and keeping you out of combat long enough for the enemies to shoot you to bits is not. Preventing bad stuff from happening should be a tactical option in the game, absolutely. Having it be the only option is bad.

On high difficulty, you should be worried about all enemies. The fact that you don't worry about the ones on health is basically proof of job well done on designing the Adept class, considering the fact that they are somewhat supbar vs defenses.

Modifié par Zahe, 17 janvier 2011 - 12:15 .