667 réponses à ce sujet

[Lycidas]

Roxlimn wrote...

Lycidas:

I think you're expressing yourself better now. It's important to distinguish yourself from the "OMG, Adept suxxorz!" crowd because there's such a consistent supply of them, and particularly in this thread where the OP said pretty much exactly that.

I'm sorry but operating outside of my mother tongue pushes me to my limits sometimes. :happy:

[Ahglock]

Wow this exploded while I was putting my new computer together.



Is the adept one of the if not the class most effected by going to insanity. Probably.

Is it a massive balance problem. No. Yeah other classes can do it easier, in the sense they don't need teammates as much and less strategy. But the adept can still do insanity quickly and easily.

Is it even a bad thing. No. Differences in how classes are effected with difficulty changes adds variety and increases the longevity of a game.

Could/should the adept be improved. Sure, nothing is perfect. For example while this would effect the vanguard as well but shockwave should be fixed. It sucks on higher difficulties. No power should become useless, it is one of the least effective CCs when defenses are down and does nothing more than a stagger when defenses are up all on the long 6 second cooldown. Reduce the cooldown, make it a defense stripper do something.

[Bozorgmehr]

Lycidas wrote...

Well to me there is a difference between saying something like: "In my opionion..." and "No, you're wrong..."
But maby I made up a tone in your reply that you did not inted to give me. If thats the case I'm sorry.

Don't be sorry, I prefer a sharp debate - and I love the Adept class so I can get a bit carried away if someone criticizes biotic

I apologize too - I can be quite rude at times.

Sorry no you said cooldowns are not the issue but did not give a reason why you think that.

With all the cooldown reduction (upgrade & passive) powers can be used very fast and frequently. If it would be faster, there wouldn't be any time left to use weapons - Shep would be performing casting animations almost all day long. I think the balance is pretty good in ME2; it's a shooter plus cool powers/abilities although I do believe weapons are a little too powerful compared to powers - but thats also a reason why Adepts should use em whenever possible and all weapons receive damage multipliers vs defenses (not vs health).

It would also not be that helpful for Adepts; when fights start, powers like Pull, Throw and Shockwave are pretty useless - having the option to use them right away doesn't change much (gameplay). The way it is now works pretty good: cast singularity to hinder/disable etc the enemy - use squadmates/weapons to remove defenses - and at that point cooldown is ready to use Warp or Throw or whatever to deliver the killing blow. It's the same with other powers; you have to Pull an enemy first to warp detonate - having Pull and Warp available doesn't allow faster Warp bombing (and Pull has such a short cooldown, you can sent a Warp 1.6 s later (fully upgraded)).

Ah I see for me bonus weapons meant DLC weapons. You might actually have a point there.

I don't think Adepts have issues with shielded targets if you see "issue" as something big or even game breaking. But I find fighting shielded targets less fun than any other and think there is room for improvement.

Well, the DLC Weapons are great for Adepts; the Mattocks is way too powerful, but great for Adepts lacking some punch. Geth Plasma Shotgun is even better (awesome vs shields btw) - it can one-shot defenses at any range. Shield heavy missions can be played with a 100% biotic squad; equip GPS on Shep, take Samara/Morinth and Jack (for Pull) > Shep shoot (shield gone) > squadies Pull > Shep Throws target of the map, rinse and repeat. Easy, effective and great to watch enemies fly all over the place

You mentioned Gatsby earlier; his Adept vids are great to get to know biotic powers, but Adepts can be played extremely agressive - more like Vanguards - if you want to. You can find Gatsby's and much more Adept videos in the Power of the Adept link in my sig if you're interested.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:31 .

[Roxlimn]

Ahglock:



Yeah. Having tried to get some kind of use out of Shockwave, I have to say that it's quite hard to find it. It's not useless but it could use a little buffing at the higher diff levels. Having it do a longer stagger animation for defended and nondefended opponents alike would do much to establish its credibility, and sets it apart from Warp and Sing.

[PlayingWithKnives]

Im not sure as ive never tryed it myself due to this reason the problem for me with shockwave is in order to max it out you have to make a big sacrifice to either 1 or 2 of your better main powers. has any1 ever tryed this on the higher difficulties to see if a maxed out evolved shockwave performs any good ?

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Individual CD system would mess with the "flow" t

That is wrong,even on console.On pc with the hotkeys that never was a problem anyway.

[tonnactus]

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest, while I'm not going to agree the Adept is 'neutered', I can sympathise with the thread OP's position. There clearly wasn't enough playtesting done on insanity difficulty and, as a result, the general class balance is absurd

There is also a reason why a power like stasis was introduced in The Lair of Shadowbroker.Without that,the adept was just a gimped soldier against the "Big Boys" like ymirs and geth primes(and ridicolous,also against some critters like varren and fenris mechs). Now,all enemies could be crowdcontrolled.

[Ahglock]

PlayingWithKnives wrote...

Im not sure as ive never tryed it myself due to this reason the problem for me with shockwave is in order to max it out you have to make a big sacrifice to either 1 or 2 of your better main powers. has any1 ever tryed this on the higher difficulties to see if a maxed out evolved shockwave performs any good ?

I have it still sucked.  It actually isn't terrible for a squad power, but for your power the small staggers on either evolution is just way too litle for the 6 second cooldown.  If it had increased effect through defenses, stripped shields, did meaningful damage for a biotic freight train, or heck just was on a 3 second cooldown it would be nice.  Even on normal I am not sure it needs the 6 second cooldown, it is nice, but I don't find it that much better than pull etc. except that it is default area of effect instead of having to evolve to it.   But that is balanced IMO by its weaker effect of a slight pop in the air as opposed to an actually pull into it.  When I initially head of the power way back when before the game was out I was thinking of it as more of a beam attack, you know cyclops from the xmen just biotic force instead.  And that would have been awesome even on a 6 second cooldown. 

[Roxlimn]

PlayingWithKnives: I did. The results were underwhelming for both Evolutions. I can't find a way to make it work. It's easy enough to try - just retrain your powers with eezo and have at it.



tonnactus: If you ask me, Bioware should have retooled Shockwave to deal with the big Heavies. Makes sense, too, thematically. In any case, the Adept isn't exactly just "a gimped Soldier" against even the Ymirs and Primes. Both of those have Armor and Warp spammage works pretty well once you got the Shields down. Too, it's not like those enemies are sprinkled all over the game.



The fact that the Adept has an issue with some few enemies gives it more flavor. They should have made the other classes with similar weaknesses in place. It's a bit lame that the Soldier can just gun everything down without any real change of pace or tactics or difficulty in combat.

[PlayingWithKnives]

Ah right ok thanks for the replys looks like its a completly defunct power then. may as well be removed from the game then freeing up another slot for a different power

[tonnactus]

Roxlimn wrote...


tonnactus: If you ask me, Bioware should have retooled Shockwave to deal with the big Heavies. Makes sense, too, thematically. In any case, the Adept isn't exactly just "a gimped Soldier" against even the Ymirs and Primes. Both of those have Armor and Warp spammage works pretty well once you got the Shields down. Too, it's not like those enemies are sprinkled all over the game.

Warp isnt really a crowd control power.And that was the point of stasis.To give a power that could handle those enemies. Against critters,crowd control is neither necessary nor really satisfying

[Bozorgmehr]

PlayingWithKnives wrote...

Ah right ok thanks for the replys looks like its a completly defunct power then. may as well be removed from the game then freeing up another slot for a different power

Not remove, improve Shockwave (for Hardcore and Insanity). It's brilliant below these difficulty levels - one of the best powers around. But it goes from top to bottom switching to one of the two hardest difficulty levels.

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

Warp isnt really a crowd control power.And that was the point of stasis.To give a power that could handle those enemies. Against critters,crowd control is neither necessary nor really satisfying

You want a power to disable, i.e. trivialize fighting, the most powerful enemies in the game, but you don't care about  the other enemies (99% of all enemies you'll meet)?

[PlayingWithKnives]

ah ok ive only played an adept on insanity so dont know about its usefulness on lower settings i might try a few lvls on veteran to see what its like then

[Zahe]

tonnactus wrote...

Zahe wrote...

Games can be hard without it instakilling you due to the enemy getting off one instant abilty. Being able to adapt should be just as important as planning ahead, thus giving the foes abilities that you can recover from but still threatens you is good. Countering one stupid gimmik by using another stupid gimmik like in ME1 if ****ing awful gamedesign.

Not many would agree that Halflife 2 or the Fallout 3/New Vegas are games with bad game design.Both have enemies that could kill the player with one shot or attack.

I haven't gotten instagibbed once in HL2, so either there were circumstances that made this possible (multiple screwups) or it was soo damn easy to avoid it wasn't an issue. That isn't the case with ME1s combat and thus that argument goes down the river. Not to mention that HL2 is a completely different game as well.

Fallout 3 has at best mediocre combat design, so you aren't doing yourself any favours bringing that up.

As I said, feel free to play a game with inferior combat gameplay if you want to. At any rate this isn't really the thread to discuss the vices of ME1.

There is also a reason why a power like stasis was introduced in
The Lair of Shadowbroker.Without that,the adept was just a gimped
soldier against the "Big Boys" like ymirs and geth primes(and
ridicolous,also against some critters like varren and fenris mechs).
Now,all enemies could be crowdcontrolled.

Yeah, to make cash. Statis is inconsistent and goes against pretty much every other aspect of the gameplay. Not to mention that it dumbs down the game due to how it can trivialize otherwise somewhat challenging fights. Horrible ability.

Modifié par Zahe, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:01 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
The global CD system only works well for the Adept and Engineer - the other classes are spamming their unique power all (or most of) the time - hence making the other powers rather redundant.

i thought it was common knowledge that the ability heavy classes were only gimped by global cooldowns. really there isnt a class that doesnt spam their signature move on insanity.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Ilitrators and Vanguards could care
less about shields they do what the do whatever defence there is. So
IMHO it has something to do with the Adept class.

Adepts are also the only class capable of
setting up Warp bombs by them selves and they're quite good at defense
stripping. Adepts have no issues with shielded enemies, at least no more
than the other classes.

how do adepts have no problems with shields, when thier abilities are nullified by that very thing? setting up warp bombs by yourself means nothing becuase i can setup warp bombs with my squadmates as well. isnt using your squadmates something you constatly thrtow down our throats? if warp bombs are the adepts primary function, then how come i can do warp bombs as a soldier too?

Bozorgmehr wrote...

A little love in terms of biotic
upgrades at the start wouldn't be out of the question, IMO, but I think
overall that the Adept's gameplay is the best designed. It's balanced,
it's fun, it's bombastic, and it has character.

Indeed, and it is one of the most challenging classes to play on Insanity - like it's supposed too.

i couldnt disagree more.  there shouldnt be a class thats supposed to be ****tier then the other classes. do you really thinik the a class based off force powers should be one of the worst classes or one of the best?

Ahglock wrote...

Is the adept one of the if not the class most effected by going to insanity. Probably.
Is
it a massive balance problem. No. Yeah other classes can do it
easier, in the sense they don't need teammates as much and less
strategy. But the adept can still do insanity quickly and easily.
Is
it even a bad thing. No. Differences in how classes are effected with
difficulty changes adds variety and increases the longevity of a game.

 

i dont give a rats behind about the non biotic classes. im essentially playing mass effect because of biotics, and your trying to tell me its too bad the adepts suck because infiltrators and soldiers are still super duper awesome??? no EFing way G unit.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:01 .

[tangmcgame]

Why do the classes have to play at an equal difficulty? It's a single player game. It doesn't really matter. Really, it sounds like you just don't like ME2, and that's fine. You seem to fundamentally disagree with the developers on how much the Adept should use its weapon. You want to be able to play weapons free (which you can against non-shielded enemies, a frequent enough occurrence), but the developers obviously wanted every class to shoot a little. You seem to want to be able to play while ignoring your squadmates altogether, or, rather, you think that because one class can ignore them all classes should be able to.

There are plenty of people that find the Adept loads of fun to play. You don't. We get it. Hopefully, ME3 will be more to your liking. If not, well, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

[Doctah T]

I like the way the power-oriented classes work. To be honest, I've never made a full completion with an adept, but I wouldn't want my engineer to work any other way.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

tangmcgame wrote...

Why do the classes have to play at an equal difficulty? It's a single player game. It doesn't really matter.

What sucks is the adept has to shoot too much instead of just relying on his powers in insanity. He is supposed to be the biotic master and his powers should be just as effective as the classes that are designed around shooting.

The soldier classes all play like soldier classes on all difficulty levels. The adept does not play like the biotic master on all difficulty levels.

That has been the complaint of people all along and Bioware failed to get it.  I hope they do a better job with balance betwwen guns and powers in ME3 but frankly I'm not holding my breath.

[tangmcgame]

I guess I just disagree with your concept of the "biotic master."  I see the Adept as a military soldier with biotic talents.  He or she has a wide toolbox of resources to draw on and one of those resources is firearms.  In the meantime, you're using biotics to keep enemies off balance.  I think people tend to exaggerate how little they get to use biotics throughout the game.  I used many of my powers in every single encounter for a variety of purposes.  And I shot my gun.  Why is that such a bad thing?

All of that being said, I'm sure if you had the right class composition and bonus power (Energy Drain, Miranda, and probably Thane for most missions; though if you're a total purist, take Stasis and/or Dominate and make sure both of your squadmates have Overload) you could get through the game never firing your weapon once.  It would take a long time, but you could do it.  If never shooting your gun is what you need to feel like a biotic warrior, then build your character and party accordingly and put the gun away.

I'm fully aware this would be a ridiculous way to play on the non-collector (which are a breeze for Adepts anyway), non-Blood Pack missions.  Blue Suns would be very challenging encounters and Eclipse would be harder for the most part.  I don't advocate playing that way, but the option is there.

And I just wanted to reiterate the point that shields are hands-down the fastest defense to strip by gunfire.  They get torn to ribbons by SMGs.  If you really loathe shooting your gun but don't want to play the gimped way I described above, you could opt to only use your SMG on shielded opponents.

Modifié par tangmcgame, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:03 .

[The Spamming Troll]

tangmcgame wrote...

Why do the classes have to play at an equal difficulty? It's a single player game. It doesn't really matter. Really, it sounds like you just don't like ME2, and that's fine. You seem to fundamentally disagree with the developers on how much the Adept should use its weapon. You want to be able to play weapons free (which you can against non-shielded enemies, a frequent enough occurrence), but the developers obviously wanted every class to shoot a little. You seem to want to be able to play while ignoring your squadmates altogether, or, rather, you think that because one class can ignore them all classes should be able to.
There are plenty of people that find the Adept loads of fun to play. You don't. We get it. Hopefully, ME3 will be more to your liking. If not, well, maybe you're playing the wrong game.

dont assume what i do or dont want. iits not even about what i wanted, its about what i expected. and you certainly dont need to write a paragraph about it.

also, shields are only 1/3rd of the problem for adepts.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:59 .

[Lycidas]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
With all the cooldown reduction (upgrade & passive) powers can be used very fast and frequently. If it would be faster, there wouldn't be any time left to use weapons - Shep would be performing casting animations almost all day long.

IMHO it would be better to start with somewhat shorter cooldowns and have a smaller impact from upgrades and the class passive. This way it would be less of a problem to invest in other powers than the passive at the start of the game.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I think the balance is pretty good in ME2; it's a shooter plus cool powers/abilities although I do believe weapons are a little too powerful compared to powers - but thats also a reason why Adepts should use em whenever possible and all weapons receive damage multipliers vs defenses (not vs health).

I pretty much agree here. Even though the look and feel of the SMG's is off IMHO. They just sound and feel weak to me (I know from the numbers they are not). I mean you can call me stupid but if I have to use weapons on the "power classes" give me something that not every soldier out there would be embarressd about carrying it around.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
It would also not be that helpful for Adepts; when fights start, powers like Pull, Throw and Shockwave are pretty useless - having the option to use them right away doesn't change much (gameplay). The way it is now works pretty good: cast singularity to hinder/disable etc the enemy - use squadmates/weapons to remove defenses - and at that point cooldown is ready to use Warp or Throw or whatever to deliver the killing blow. It's the same with other powers; you have to Pull an enemy first to warp detonate - having Pull and Warp available doesn't allow faster Warp bombing (and Pull has such a short cooldown, you can sent a Warp 1.6 s later (fully upgraded)).

Yeah you conviced me there mixed cooldowns would not work out as good as I thought.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Well, the DLC Weapons are great for Adepts; the Mattocks is way too powerful, but great for Adepts lacking some punch. Geth Plasma Shotgun is even better (awesome vs shields btw) - it can one-shot defenses at any range. Shield heavy missions can be played with a 100% biotic squad; equip GPS on Shep, take Samara/Morinth and Jack (for Pull) > Shep shoot (shield gone) > squadies Pull > Shep Throws target of the map, rinse and repeat. Easy, effective and great to watch enemies fly all over the place

Tbh something kept me from trying shotguns with the Adept for a ling time. Now that I gave it a chance it is indeed awesome. I just wish the GPS was available earlier in the game for the Adept.

Bozorgmehr wrote...
You mentioned Gatsby earlier; his Adept vids are great to get to know biotic powers, but Adepts can be played extremely agressive - more like Vanguards - if you want to. You can find Gatsby's and much more Adept videos in the Power of the Adept link in my sig if you're interested.

I just mentioned his videos because they are qite often used to "prove" the Adept is perfect as it is but he himself thought there is still room for improvements. And thats exactly what I think. The Adept is an awesome class and got even better by DLC stuff like the GPS, Stasis, etc. but I still think there is room for small improvements.
Sadly most of the videos posted in your thread can not be viewed in my country any longer due to stupid copy right restrictions...

Modifié par Lycidas, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Lycidas wrote...

IMHO it would be better to start with somewhat shorter cooldowns and have a smaller impact from upgrades and the class passive. This way it would be less of a problem to invest in other powers than the passive at the start of the game.

That would be nice, but it isn't cooldowns only - power duration is the other issue. Playing on Insanity gives powers a 20% duration reduction hence the short time powers affect / disable enemies. The +20% duration research upgrade (you'll need 2 biotic damage upgrades to unlock) and Bastion (+20%) can compensate.

After Horizon things change pretty dramatic for Adepts, because they can buy a couple biotic damage upgrades
at stores to research the two important upgrades making powers last longer and they can be used more often.

I pretty much agree here. Even though the look and feel of the SMG's is off IMHO. They just sound and feel weak to me (I know from the numbers they are not). I mean you can call me stupid but if I have to use weapons on the "power classes" give me something that not every soldier out there would be embarressd about carrying it around.

SMGs are pretty powerful, the Locust (Kasumi dlc) is particularly good early game, but since CC powers don't last very long, it's risky to get close - and at close range SMGs (and HPs) are deadly.

After Horizon, I complete the Firewalker missions (pick up Zaeed and Kasumi) to unlock the Collector Ship mission - to get bonus weapon asap. You'll need to complete 5-6 missions or N7 assignments and have 6 squadmates on Normandy to trigger that mission. If you do it like this, your Adept can use bonus weapon on 70-80% of all available missions.

Tbh something kept me from trying shotguns with the Adept for a ling time. Now that I gave it a chance it is indeed awesome. I just wish the GPS was available earlier in the game for the Adept.

Yeah, having some powerful weapons early really helps; you can always mod the coalesced.ini to change weapon loadout though (PC, 360 can also be modded btw) - I did that with on my latest Engineer playthrough (added shotgun, removed HW).

I just mentioned his videos because they are qite often used to "prove" the Adept is perfect as it is but he himself thought there is still room for improvements. And thats exactly what I think. The Adept is an awesome class and got even better by DLC stuff like the GPS, Stasis, etc. but I still think there is room for small improvements.
Sadly most of the videos posted in your thread can not be viewed in my country any longer due to stupid copy right restrictions...

I consider the Adept the best designed class. They're easy to play (and great fun) on Normal, but things become more difficult when enemies are using defenses, making it challenging to master biotics and gameplay. Adepts need to utilize everything available to em; biotics, squadmates and weapons, to be successful. Soldiers - for example - won't notice any real change in difficulty between Normal and Insanity.

Yes, compared to the other classes, Adepts are relatively weak. Is that bad? I don't think so. Insanity is supposed to be hard - it is for Adepts - not for Soldiers. I'll say it's not the Adept who needs improvements, it's the others who need to be gimped a little to make Insanity at least a little more challenging than it is now.

P.S. Germany, right? I guess they don't like the music I've used

Have you tried ultrasurf? It's freeware and it will give your pc an US based IP adres, this might do the trick. Just execute (no need to install), restart your browser and you're ready to go.

If it works please let me know, so I can add a link to the OP how to circumvent those damn copyright crap [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:35 .

[tonnactus]

Zahe wrote...

I haven't gotten instagibbed once in HL2, so either there were circumstances that made this possible (multiple screwups) or it was soo damn easy to avoid it wasn't an issue.

Snipers instant killed everyone in one shot who get touched by the blue laser. Just one example.

That isn't the case with ME1s combat and thus that argument goes down the river.

How funny. You dont have problems with half life 2 combat but with that of the first Mass Effect game,and that make a argument go down the river?

I didnt have any problems with the Mass Effect combat,neither snipers or enemy biotics. So what?

Fallout 3 has at best mediocre combat design,

Why?

As I said, feel free to play a game with inferior combat gameplay if you want to.

New Vegas already nearly surpass the sales of Mass Effect 2 despite the fact that it is out only a few months. Funny how manny play it despite "mediocre combat design". Its not that any fallout title has a good story. So why people even play it?

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 janvier 2011 - 07:26 .

[raza31]

Why all the hate on adapts. Adapts need to be use tactically. Look for prime real estate on mission, place squadmembers in position and use appropiate weapons.. They'll stay in position as long as their weapon is in it's effective range. Use Grunt as a tank,  position him and have him be the focus of attack and then flank them.  Create crossfires. Switch weapons for you and your team members when needed. Combine squad powers to strip defences and then debilate. Use shockwave to pop enemies out of cover. You might have to pull up the powers screen to place members, look for cover and target enemies for powers a lot but you'll be suprise how much easier it will be than not.