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[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...



LOL reading this, this video came into my mind

Warp is used in this video, but it still requires an awful lot of shots to kill them - Warp only helps a little.

Cant view that without a proxy.And warp was a massive debuff. Reduce an armor protection from 79 to 20 is nothing else then that.

All biotic powers can kill enemies

When there is a ledge nearby.Right.By the way,i never wanted the adept to be someone who can kill enemies without shooting anyway.That would be too much Starwars and not really Mass Effect. I want crowd control.Real crowd control and more then one power(singularity) that could do that without considering Dlc.

[Roxlimn]

Stammwuerze:



There are a significant number of locales where any ability to Throw is an insta-kill power. Sure, you have to aim it, but then, you have to aim a gun, too.



Even where you can't use a ledge, Throw combined with Pull does considerably more damage, even when you're throwing enemies against a wall. With Heavy Throw, all you really need is Pull and a high enough ceiling. By itself, Heavy Throw damages Barriers considerably. It is competitve with Unstable Warp for damage compared to GCD and it's more flexible because the cooldown is shorter.



Even without Pull, Area Throw will kill unprotected Husks on impact. Thus, it comboes quite well with Singularity (Throw Field any Husks that aren't caught), Incineration Blast, and a good old pistol. It will also multi-throw targets, so you can kill multiple targets on a ledge level, or keep a couple targets down as long as they're unprotected. Krogan are particularly vulnerable to CC like this because they aren't numerous, as a rule.



Simply put, any target without defenses is rich play for Adept Biotics, so to experience the power, you have to first learn how to take down enemy defenses quickly and efficiently. If you're stuck gunning down enemies one at a time as an Adept, you're not doing it as best as it could be done.



PS: don't take the Gatsby videos too seriously. Even Gatsby himself will agree that they're not as well played as they could have been. He tends to spam Warp and Sing more than is really good. There are many instances where Throw and Pull are superior options.

[Schneidend]

What Gatsby's videos show, though, is that the Adept is a force to be reckoned with on Insanity. That he wasn't playing as well as he could have been just proves that it doesn't take a "leet" player to pull off an Adept Insanity playthrough.



Gatsby's also a perfectionist. Most of the guys posting videos will lament their little mistakes in hindsight, even if those mistakes didn't inconvenience them at all. Fun people.

[Bozorgmehr]

Stammwuerze wrote...

Uhhhh fictional dialogues. What's next? Cat pictures and ASCII posts? To this point it was a really nice discussion. It is not really helping your cause, Bozorgmehr, that you start to belittle someone with an another opinion. I thought of you as an intelligent adult with a solid an well informed opinion.

I couldn't resist posting that dialogue Although you're right, it's a little too sarcastic perhaps, but it explained the point about the soldier-adept quite well I think. Mass Effect is about shooting and using powers, not one or the other.

tonnactus wrote...

By the way,i never wanted the adept to be someone who can kill enemies without shooting anyway.That would be too much Starwars and not really Mass Effect. I want crowd control.Real crowd control and more then one power (singularity) that could do that without considering Dlc.

Agreed

But I'm afraid we can't have all. When powers like Pull and Throw work on protected enemies everything becomes way too easy. It's cool on Normal, but Insanity should require a little more intelligent play style. AI is not going to improve radically any time soon and hardware limitations (consoles) limit the number of enemies that can be rendered on screen. Something had to be done to make the game challenging, and although it does affect certain abilities more than others, the defense system works very well for Adepts. A good balance between shooting and using powers to CC and kill enemies. It's not perfect, but the lesser evil.

I'd like to keep the defense system in ME3 (harder difficulty levels only), but anything that could make biotic powers more useful, when enemies still have defenses, is most welcome. An interactive environment could do that perhaps; Pulling and Throwing objects to damage or expose enemies hiding behind cover would be nice and fun IMHO. It might make Shockwave worthwhile too - the ability to destroy/move the environment/objects over a large area sounds pretty good to me.

khevan wrote...

Some people want a return to ME1 style biotics, which is fine for them, but I really don't want that. ME1 biotics were powerful, too powerful in fact, and trivialized the game, making it entirely too easy, and on the higher difficulty levels, it was just too tedious and boring. I prefer ME2's style, where it's harder, but more fun.

Should have quoted your entire post, very well said.

P.S. Are you still playing with those "tweaked" versions of Pull and Throw? I recall you posted something a while back about Thisisme style biotics.

[The Spamming Troll]

Lycidas wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
who cares what ME2s singularity and stasis can do? ME3 might not even have shockwave, throw might be changed to "tug" for chipes sakes. i dont see how your so quick to jump the gun with that "no." why not allow the player to choose what ability affects protected enemies? couldnt throw be upgraded to work on protected enemies instead of stasis?

Well I guess there is no arguing that a Throw thats working on protected targets would be considerably more powerful than anything we have at the moment. I just can not see how this could be balanced out. Having Throw on a higher cooldown would effectively destroy what Throw is today and turn it into something totally new and I just happen to like what it is now.

stasis works on protected enemies, so why cant throw? and no, i dont want or need ALL biotics to work on everything, but if bioware is limiting my choices of effective biotics, then let me be the one that chooses which biotic ability im gonna be spamming. if stasis didnt work on protected enemies, it'd essentially crippling slam and be among the regulars. you might think throw would be great, i think pull would be awesome, some people might be fine with stasis being the uber-biotic. stasis is almost the begining of the end with biotics in ME2, which brings me to my next point.....

Lycidas wrote...

Schneidend wrote...
1) Stasis is imbalanced as it is, and it
doesn't even kill enemies...

I
would not consider Stasis to be inbalanced as it is. Yes there is the
damage bug but you don't have to abuse it other than that its fine IMHO.
What makes it better than using AR, Cloak, Drone or Charge to escape
one enemy?

stasis is one of the 2 or 3 elite biotic abilities, thats available as a bonus ability to ALL classes. why is stasis important? because it turns your charging vangaurd or your cloaking infiltrator into a dominating CCer, which is SUPPOSED to be the adept.

would a soldier with stasis be an extremely effective CCer? ..........the answer to that is yes. please dont bring up the adept can create their own warp bombs! OMG!?!? thats not why im playing an adept. or thats not how i expected to be playing a frickin ADEPT.

[The Spamming Troll]

khevan wrote...

I think the main problem here is that people who don't like biotics in ME2 want them to act like biotics in ME1, where you can CC entire rooms and have no one shooting at you. While this was undeniably cool, it got to the point at around level 30-35 (about halfway thru the game) where this becomes completely OP, to the point where you cannot die unless you screw up.

ME2 Adept has alot of CC ability, but it's limited to one target, or a small number of targets...but it's a much faster cycle of casting powers. You can't control every enemy on the battlefield at once, but you can control alot of enemies. It provides a balance that I like, where I still feel like I'm using my biotics to toss people around, but I can't lockdown an entire room. That, tbh, got boring, especially with the low damage that the guns do, on insanity especially. I always play ME1 on Normal or Veteran, simply because the higher difficulty levels become WAAAAYYY too tedious. ME2, on the other hand, is always played on either Hardcore or Insanity, depending on my skill level with the class at hand. Adept and Sentinel on anything less than HC is a joke. Entirely too easy, way overpowered in fact.

Some people want a return to ME1 style biotics, which is fine for them, but I really don't want that. ME1 biotics were powerful, too powerful in fact, and trivialized the game, making it entirely too easy, and on the higher difficulty levels, it was just too tedious and boring. I prefer ME2's style, where it's harder, but more fun.

I'd be willing to consider a compromise, where ME3 takes a step or two towards something in the middle between ME1 and ME2 biotics, but I really don't want to go all the way back to ME1 gameplay.

we are 21 pages into a topic that we discuss on a constant circular basis in this forum, and now your trying to explain to us how biotics work? we have played the game before. thats why were here complaining about it!

:sick::sick:

*edited to show more puke faces and i just figured out how to get italics. i can write in green.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 février 2011 - 02:33 .

[Schneidend]

Find Stasis overpowered? That's why I don't use it.



Same thing goes for the Mattock and the Geth Plasma Shotgun.

[khevan]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

we are 21 pages into a topic that we discuss on a constant circular basis in this forum, and now your trying to explain to us how biotics work? we have played the game before. thats why were here complaining about it!

:sick::sick:

*edited to show more puke faces and i just figured out how to get italics. i can write in green.

Dude, chill.  I typed all of that out to explain my position, not to try to talk down to you.  Ease up on the taking offense.

I was pointing out where I felt ME1's biotics were lacking, and how ME2 improved that, in my opinion.  I can, however, understand why people want ME1's biotics back, because it is a big change, but it's just that:  a change.  Too many people complain that the Adept is gimped, etc, and it's been shown time and again that the Adept is a powerful class.  Maybe biotics don't work the way you want them to, and that's understandable, but to take that completely subjective opinion and use it to try to "prove" that the Adept is gimped is a fallicious argument. 

I happen to like the changes to the biotics in ME2.  They flow faster, you can get into a rythym without falling into the "Cast Singularity, Cast Lift, Cast Warp, shoot mindlessly for the next 20 seconds or so until Singularity has cooled down, rinse/repeat."  That got boring, even if it was powerful.  Like I said in the post you quoted, I'd be ok with a middle ground between what we have in ME2 and what was in ME1, but to go entirely back to that cumbersomely boring biotic system would make me an unhappy player.

[khevan]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

P.S. Are you still playing with those "tweaked" versions of Pull and Throw? I recall you posted something a while back about Thisisme style biotics.

In a way, I got lucky.  My computer decided to blow up, so I wound up getting another one, with a better GPU, and everything, and now my biotics work "normally."  So, yay me!

[Lycidas]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
stasis works on protected enemies, so why cant throw?

Because Stasis does not kill anything (unless you use it in unintended ways) but Throw does.

The Spamming Troll wrote...
stasis is one of the 2 or 3 elite biotic abilities, thats available as a bonus ability to ALL classes. why is stasis important? because it turns your charging vangaurd or your cloaking infiltrator into a dominating CCer, which is SUPPOSED to be the adept.

would a soldier with stasis be an extremely effective CCer? ..........the answer to that is yes. please dont bring up the adept can create their own warp bombs! OMG!?!? thats not why im playing an adept. or thats not how i expected to be playing a frickin ADEPT.

Well I said it before Stasis should have been an Adept only power IMHO. Soldiers using such a powerful biotic power is insulting.

[thisisme8]

Wow. I'm super late. What are we arguing about?

[Ahglock]

thisisme8 wrote...

Wow. I'm super late. What are we arguing about?

Pretend it is a year ago, and rehash the same arguments we had about adepts at the games launch.  You know the ones that died down for most people including me once we got experience with the game. 

[HTTP 404]

Ahglock wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Wow. I'm super late. What are we arguing about?

Pretend it is a year ago, and rehash the same arguments we had about adepts at the games launch.  You know the ones that died down for most people including me once we got experience with the game. 

yah this. yawn

even tho this thread is old, the topic is last years.  OP, if you're still even reading this, just look up adepts on youtube and make your own choice. 

[Locutus_of_BORG]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Wow. I'm super late. What are we arguing about?

Pretend it is a year ago, and rehash the same arguments we had about adepts at the games launch.  You know the ones that died down for most people including me once we got experience with the game. 

yah this. yawn

even tho this thread is old, the topic is last years.  OP, if you're still even reading this, just look up adepts on youtube and make your own choice. 

Inanity: Why is Adept still ripped on when Infiltrator has nothing to do with it and the original thread topic became trivialized a month ago?

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 05 février 2011 - 02:55 .

[The Spamming Troll]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Wow. I'm super late. What are we arguing about?

Pretend it is a year ago, and rehash the same arguments we had about adepts at the games launch.  You know the ones that died down for most people including me once we got experience with the game. 

yah this. yawn

even tho this thread is old, the topic is last years.  OP, if you're still even reading this, just look up adepts on youtube and make your own choice. 

Inanity: Why is Adept still ripped on when Infiltrator has nothing to do with it and the original thread topic became trivialized a month ago?

are you from the future?

[thisisme8]

I see.... carry on.

[Lycidas]

Ahglock wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Wow. I'm super late. What are we arguing about?

Pretend it is a year ago, and rehash the same arguments we had about adepts at the games launch.  You know the ones that died down for most people including me once we got experience with the game. 

Oh come on there have been some mature discussions too.

[Arijharn]

I personally can't believe that someone is using a crevasse excuse as to why Throw would be overpowered for a case of instant death... I mean, all this can be designed as part of level design anyway. I'm not saying: TAKE THE PROPOSED MECHANICS AND PUT THEM INTO ME2. To be honest though; instant death for the rubbish enemies once and a while might be fun, but I wouldn't want to see it made into some habit though. Like I said, balancing pass is needed.

[Roxlimn]

It's not just a crevasse, Arijharn. Pull+Throw is pretty much insta-death for most mooks if the Throw is evolved into Heavy. The combined GCD for this combo is about the same as that for a single Warp, which won't kill a single enemy mook in one go, even if it's evolved.



So, Throw is, at baseline, both CC and location control (you can toss enemies into a farther portion of the map - very effective against shotgunners), as well as a kill combo, as well as an occasional insta-kill power by itself, and it's rated at one of the least expensive GCDs.



I think one of the biggest problems of the "Adept sucks" crowd is that they adamantly refuse to play Adept at Veteran for some reason. You can't know how hard Adepts own nondefended mooks if you don't play at the lower diff levels. Playing at the lower levels informs you of what biotics can do.



Once you know what to do with undefended mooks, you find ways to take their defenses off quickly so that you can own them hard. The statement "Warp is the only power worth using," and "Sing and Warp are the only powers worth using," reflect a profound lack of familiarity with using Throws and Pulls.

[Evilsod]

I'm around lvl20 on my Adept atm and frankly Pull/Throw is dodgy as hell. On Garrus' loyalty mission i launched enemies practically into oblivion with a Heavy Throw and watched them crash to the ground half the map away... and survive.

And then there was Recruit Tali where i actually had to reload at 1 point because some enemies i'd thrown hadn't died and were god knows where so i couldn't kill them.



Noone cares about the lower levels of difficulty.

[thisisme8]

You know, the Sentinel gets the equally devastating Cryo-Throw. I'd go so far as to say it's even better than Pull-Throw: it makes it snow!

[ryoldschool]

khevan wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

we are 21 pages into a topic that we discuss on a constant circular basis in this forum, and now your trying to explain to us how biotics work? we have played the game before. thats why were here complaining about it!

:sick::sick:

*edited to show more puke faces and i just figured out how to get italics. i can write in green.

Dude, chill.  I typed all of that out to explain my position, not to try to talk down to you.  Ease up on the taking offense.

I was pointing out where I felt ME1's biotics were lacking, and how ME2 improved that, in my opinion.  I can, however, understand why people want ME1's biotics back, because it is a big change, but it's just that:  a change.  Too many people complain that the Adept is gimped, etc, and it's been shown time and again that the Adept is a powerful class.  Maybe biotics don't work the way you want them to, and that's understandable, but to take that completely subjective opinion and use it to try to "prove" that the Adept is gimped is a fallicious argument. 

I happen to like the changes to the biotics in ME2.  They flow faster, you can get into a rythym without falling into the "Cast Singularity, Cast Lift, Cast Warp, shoot mindlessly for the next 20 seconds or so until Singularity has cooled down, rinse/repeat."  That got boring, even if it was powerful.  Like I said in the post you quoted, I'd be ok with a middle ground between what we have in ME2 and what was in ME1, but to go entirely back to that cumbersomely boring biotic system would make me an unhappy player.

After reading this thread, I played ME1 adept for the first time ( been playing me2 since launch ).  This guy is right about me1.  Me1 - At level 30 you can max singularity and lift do just what he says.  I understand why people liked doing that, but I also think the change was for the best.

[Ahglock]

Lycidas wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Wow. I'm super late. What are we arguing about?

Pretend it is a year ago, and rehash the same arguments we had about adepts at the games launch.  You know the ones that died down for most people including me once we got experience with the game. 

Oh come on there have been some mature discussions too.

The arguments might be mature and well articulated but they are still the same arguemnts from 1 year ago when the game launched. 

[Ahglock]

Evilsod wrote...


Noone cares about the lower levels of difficulty.

You should care, because by uderstanding them it helps you understand the higher difficulty levels.  At lower difficulties you have perfect cc over the targets so it is an instant win.  If you had the same cc on insanity the only thing that would change is the number of bullets it took to kill the helpless targets.  That is not a real difficulty jump, it never became hard much less insanely hard.

[Evilsod]

Ahglock wrote...

Evilsod wrote...


Noone cares about the lower levels of difficulty.

You should care, because by uderstanding them it helps you understand the higher difficulty levels.  At lower difficulties you have perfect cc over the targets so it is an instant win.  If you had the same cc on insanity the only thing that would change is the number of bullets it took to kill the helpless targets.  That is not a real difficulty jump, it never became hard much less insanely hard.

So what you're saying is everyone should play through the game 6 times on Normal/Veteran to try out each character before shifting up to Insanity purely because 90% of eneimes don't have any sort of protection and deal considerably less damage so you can find out how to play everything in a way not suited for Insanity?

Just because they say Normal is the 'baseline' doesn't mean its balanced. The minimum difficulty you should be playing if you want to understand a class is Hardcore. Defence layers should've been present on all difficulties.