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[Ahglock]

Evilsod wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Evilsod wrote...


Noone cares about the lower levels of difficulty.

You should care, because by uderstanding them it helps you understand the higher difficulty levels.  At lower difficulties you have perfect cc over the targets so it is an instant win.  If you had the same cc on insanity the only thing that would change is the number of bullets it took to kill the helpless targets.  That is not a real difficulty jump, it never became hard much less insanely hard.

So what you're saying is everyone should play through the game 6 times on Normal/Veteran to try out each character before shifting up to Insanity purely because 90% of eneimes don't have any sort of protection and deal considerably less damage so you can find out how to play everything in a way not suited for Insanity?

Just because they say Normal is the 'baseline' doesn't mean its balanced. The minimum difficulty you should be playing if you want to understand a class is Hardcore. Defence layers should've been present on all difficulties.

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am saying if you wish to make an argument that defenses should not block biotics, you actually should play on the difficulty levels where that style is present.  That is if you wish to make an informed judgement on how that would effect insanity.

[mcsupersport]

Evilsod wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Evilsod wrote...


Noone cares about the lower levels of difficulty.

You should care, because by uderstanding them it helps you understand the higher difficulty levels.  At lower difficulties you have perfect cc over the targets so it is an instant win.  If you had the same cc on insanity the only thing that would change is the number of bullets it took to kill the helpless targets.  That is not a real difficulty jump, it never became hard much less insanely hard.

So what you're saying is everyone should play through the game 6 times on Normal/Veteran to try out each character before shifting up to Insanity purely because 90% of eneimes don't have any sort of protection and deal considerably less damage so you can find out how to play everything in a way not suited for Insanity?

Just because they say Normal is the 'baseline' doesn't mean its balanced. The minimum difficulty you should be playing if you want to understand a class is Hardcore. Defence layers should've been present on all difficulties.

What he is saying is look at ME1 and see how having biotics work though defenses effects the higher levels.  ME1 is all about using biotics to disable and then how many bullets does it take for them to die.  There isn't any true difficulty upgrade between Veteran and Insanity in ME1 because biotics can take out the entire battlefield of enemies and make them float or freeze in place until they are dead.   If the designers didn't make the change they did, then we would have a repeat of ME1 in ME2 in Biotics are gods and everyone else is second rate, because no other class can so effectively disable the battlefield except maybe a high level ME1 Engineer, but they took out most of the effectiveness of Engineers skills to effect more than 3-4 people.

[Evilsod]

Ahglock wrote...

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am saying if you wish to make an argument that defenses should not block biotics, you actually should play on the difficulty levels where that style is present.  That is if you wish to make an informed judgement on how that would effect insanity.

So really it wasn't worth reading at all then... got it.

I have never said Biotics should all work regardless of protection. I remember the ME1 Adept and how badly designed both the Adept was in general and the enemies were on Insanity. Unless you could stop enemies using Immunity fights would go on considerably longer and the Adept did it best by keeping everything in the room bouncing off the walls.
But the blanket 'no effect' was still bad. Shields and Barriers are 1 thing, but Armour does not stop a 1200N Throw, it would do significantly more than make the enemy flinch, especially considering it does that at lvl1.

But then i guess at the end of the day it hardly matters. The defence layer hardly makes a difference on regular enemies once you get past a certain level. Allies with Area Reave/Incinerate/Overload etc strips the protection off weak foes easily in 1 cast and they can do that before your Singularity/Pull has even reached its target.

[Roxlimn]

There is no blanket "no effect." You're obviously either playing a different game, or you're not even trying to use either an evolved Pull or Throw.

[thisisme8]

It's funny how every other page the argument goes right back to the beginning - this has happened for 23 pages. It's a vicious circle.

[Evilsod]

Roxlimn wrote...

There is no blanket "no effect." You're obviously either playing a different game, or you're not even trying to use either an evolved Pull or Throw.

Yes minor damage and/or a little flinch. Sorry but a Heavy Throw would do slightly more than that.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Evilsod wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

There is no blanket "no effect." You're obviously either playing a different game, or you're not even trying to use either an evolved Pull or Throw.

Yes minor damage and/or a little flinch. Sorry but a Heavy Throw would do slightly more than that.

Yeah, the "Bulletzzz should rule cause this iz a shooterzz. Go play on EZ if you are not LEET" people will always say that if a biotic power staggers an opponent for 0.0009 sec it is a good enough effect.

I'd like the classes to be substantially differnent rather than having the soldier classes dominate in shooting and requiring the power classes to shoot and have powers that often do pretty much nothing. They are happy with powers that often do nothing though and you are not going to change their minds.

[Arijharn]

But saying that using pull+throw on undefended mooks is powerful is rather redundant no? Everything is effective when they're undefended. The issue is that for an Adept against any enemy with defenses the class is penalised to a greater degree. Why? Because even if Singularity staggers them, an Adept can not use it's 'power moves' such as warpbomb, and it can not gain the effect of it's ragdolling damage amp.



This is not to say that I want enemies to be effected for an age like they were with ME1, because you're right, that got boring at higher levels, what I am saying is that as a class in a single player game, I want to enjoy the maximum benefits of using my chosen class all the time, even if that time might be relatively short, and the game should be balanced around that idea.

[thisisme8]

Almost all enemies have more health than defenses, so I'd say that makes powers really useful. Has anyone ever watched any of my Vanguard, Sentinel, or Adept videos? I dominate this game on insanity and never once thought that any of my abilities were useless. Hell, I have such a hard time giving up my core powers that I never even take a bonus... not enough points.

That is all I will say on this. I said it a year ago, I'll say it again next year around this time, I suppose.

Modifié par thisisme8, 06 février 2011 - 01:33 .

[Arijharn]

Right, but more health doesn't actually mean anything, because everything gets the full effect on it, so saying because you get rag-dolling on it as an added bonus is, while nice, not of extra real benefit compared to anything else. More health means it takes fractionally longer to kill and that's pretty much it.

[Evilsod]

Well someones certainly **** sure of themselves...



What do Vanguard or Sentinel have to do with anything? Vanguard in particular is the COMBAT biotic. Charge is its combat orientated special 'biotic' attack and its actual biotic skills are practically useless, more so given that Shockwave is required to get Pull and Shockwave is next to useless so you may aswell get a bonus power you want to max. 1 in Shockwave is enough for Husks.

[thisisme8]

You guys are using the same arguments others made so long ago. I think the problem is that the non-combat classes have a rougher start than the others which makes people just starting out feel like they are useless throughout, when the truth is they are (imo) stronger in the end.



Watch my vids, defenses are trivial with the right setup and it isn't long before enemies are flying all over the place.

[Bender5252]

thisisme8 I agree with you, I have played as all the classes all the way through the game and it just takes time to figure them out. My first run through on insanity was with my adept and at first, it was rough. You always need to make sure you have a balanced party, which means always bring along a soldier-like character. Late game though, especially against the collectors who all have biotic barriers and/or armor, Biotic characters, like my adept, take the MVP in terms of doing damage and staying safe.

[Bozorgmehr]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Yeah, the "Bulletzzz should rule cause this iz a shooterzz. Go play on EZ if you are not LEET" people will always say that if a biotic power staggers an opponent for 0.0009 sec it is a good enough effect.

I'd like the classes to be substantially differnent rather than having the soldier classes dominate in shooting and requiring the power classes to shoot and have powers that often do pretty much nothing. They are happy with powers that often do nothing though and you are not going to change their minds.

Mass Effect is a shooter - that means you'll need to shoot stuff. When you're playing football, you're playing football - not tennis or hockey.

I seriously doubt you have played ME2, considering all the nonsense you're constantly posting. Vorcha narrow-mindedness isn't going to help either. Please post something constructive or go troll somewhere else.

Arijharn wrote...

Right, but more health doesn't actually mean anything, because everything gets the full effect on it, so saying because you get rag-dolling on it as an added bonus is, while nice, not of extra real benefit compared to anything else. More health means it takes fractionally longer to kill and that's pretty much it.

There are no weapon and power bonuses versus health - a single Warp can strip defenses completely, but you always need two to kill an enemy without defenses, for example. Pull and Throw can insta-kill enemies and they're on a very fast cooldown. Warpbombs are the most damaging attacks in ME2 (except Cain and Arc Projector).

The damage powers can do is insignificant compared to the CC they provide. Enemies hanging out near rooftops, knocked down, neural shocked, frozen etc etc don't shoot back - that makes a huge difference. Adepts need to use their own powers, their squad and weapons in a symphony of destruction. When shooting down the defenses of one enemy and throwing him/her to the ground allows you to ignore him/her for a while and focus on something else. It takes 1-2 seconds to kill enemy (not using powers), but that time can mean the difference between life and death with multiple enemies around who (like the initial target) are still shooting you.

thisisme8 wrote...

You guys are using the same arguments others made so long ago. I think the problem is that the non-combat classes have a rougher start than the others which makes people just starting out feel like they are useless throughout, when the truth is they are (imo) stronger in the end.

Watch my vids, defenses are trivial with the right setup and it isn't long before enemies are flying all over the place.

Yeah, remember the complaints about Charge being suicidal on Insanity? Those and others have been dismissed almost completely, but Adept is still being discriminated by some. Dunno why exactly, but I don't think your videos are going to change their minds. If a year's practice isn't enough to (discover the) value (of) Pull and Throw, I doubt they ever will.

[thisisme8]

I should of pointed them to your videos now that I think of it!

[Bozorgmehr]

They believe my Adept plays like a gimped Soldier, all the biotics are only for show - enemies without defenses are somehow considered already deceased. I think yours, mine (and other) videos have showed Adepts have an unique playstyle that's both effective and fun, biotics are not gimped on Insanity.

[Roxlimn]

Evilsod:



From what evidence are you getting the information that Heavy Throw does "minor damage?" The damage Heavy Throw does on Barrier defenses is significant. Two will strip defenses of Collectors (and Vanguards) on Hardcore, which is functionally equivalent to a Warp, since Throw has half the cooldown. If the enemy has already damaged Barriers, Throw removes it more efficiently than Warp.



Once defenses are down, Throw is better than Warp, so no, not all powers work best when defenses are down. I'd say the same about things like Overload.



If Throw did something more than its current damage and a stagger, it would be better than Warp against Barrier defended enemies across the board. That's just silly. Again, you obviously did not know this, even though it's perfectly obvious once you start doing it. Evidently, you haven't been using Heavy Throw against defended enemies at all.

[Ahglock]

Evilsod wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am saying if you wish to make an argument that defenses should not block biotics, you actually should play on the difficulty levels where that style is present.  That is if you wish to make an informed judgement on how that would effect insanity.

So really it wasn't worth reading at all then... got it.

I have never said Biotics should all work regardless of protection. I remember the ME1 Adept and how badly designed both the Adept was in general and the enemies were on Insanity. Unless you could stop enemies using Immunity fights would go on considerably longer and the Adept did it best by keeping everything in the room bouncing off the walls.
But the blanket 'no effect' was still bad. Shields and Barriers are 1 thing, but Armour does not stop a 1200N Throw, it would do significantly more than make the enemy flinch, especially considering it does that at lvl1.

But then i guess at the end of the day it hardly matters. The defence layer hardly makes a difference on regular enemies once you get past a certain level. Allies with Area Reave/Incinerate/Overload etc strips the protection off weak foes easily in 1 cast and they can do that before your Singularity/Pull has even reached its target.

Well since you have a closed mind, nothing is worth reading for you.

You may not have said biotics should have there full effect, but you have basically said they should work through defenses.  Or does the blanket "no effect"  was still bad mean something else in evilsod land.  Or when you **** that woah is me only the adept is effected like this they are gimped etc.  You may not come straight out and say it, but you have been ****ing that the adept is gimped because his powers don't work through defenses.  Yet you irrationally think stasis is broken because it works through defenses.  Pick a stream, is going through defenses overpowered, or does the inability ot go straight through defenses mean you are gimped.  Do you just want the standard insanity duration lowering effect?  What do you want, you never really say, you just **** that the adept is gimped due to them being the only class where all of there powers are blocked by defenses.(except singularity, warp, and not nearly as minor as you make out stagger effects, and damage vs barriers) 

Modifié par Ahglock, 06 février 2011 - 06:03 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I seriously doubt you have played ME2, considering all the nonsense you're constantly posting. Vorcha narrow-mindedness isn't going to help either. Please post something constructive or go troll somewhere else.
.

You are the troll, Bozo. You insult everyone who disagrees with you. The polls show the adept to be the seconde least popular class (the engineer is last.) There are reasons for that. Reasons that we have been expressing while you have been insulting us.

Fanbois are hopeless.  Oh, King Troll, I have played through insanity multiple times with each class. I just don't like having to be a gimped soldier in places.

They believe my Adept plays like a gimped Soldier, all the biotics are only for show - enemies without defenses are somehow considered already deceased. I think yours, mine (and other) videos have showed Adepts have an unique playstyle that's both effective and fun, biotics are not gimped on Insanity.

They do, which is why they are an unpopular class.

You shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot. You pretty much play an adept like a vanguard. It is moronic to think that just because weapons are so overpowering in the game (like I have said from day 1) that everyone can shoot so the balance is fine.

There is really no reason to have separate classes if you want each class to be constantly shooting.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 février 2011 - 08:43 .

[Bender5252]

Adept and Engineer are good classes and they actually require you to be smart. Mass Effect 2 is not simply a shooter, its an RPG and you need to actually utilize strategy when playing as an engineer and adept. I understand though, some people are just not able to use the right hemisphere of their brain to think in such a way that requires them to analyze every battle and do something other than shoot.

[ryoldschool]

This thread is dead. I'll not read it anymore. You guys keep going in circles.

[Siegdrifa]

ryoldschool wrote...

You guys keep going in circles.

Yeah, because adept is not what they wanted to be.
They don't agree with the design choice and want to make it look like a design mistake.
At the end, it's only people who like chocolate trying to argue that their actual cofee doesn't taste like chocolate,
Endless and pointless.

I wonder why they put so much effort into aruging about that, they are not supposed to love all the class.
I hate soldier class and his design, doesn't mean i found it badly designed.

People should learn the difference between i like / don't like and it's good / bad.

[Arijharn]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
 

Arijharn wrote...

Right, but more health doesn't actually mean anything, because everything gets the full effect on it, so saying because you get rag-dolling on it as an added bonus is, while nice, not of extra real benefit compared to anything else. More health means it takes fractionally longer to kill and that's pretty much it.

There are no weapon and power bonuses versus health - a single Warp can strip defenses completely, but you always need two to kill an enemy without defenses, for example. Pull and Throw can insta-kill enemies and they're on a very fast cooldown. Warpbombs are the most damaging attacks in ME2 (except Cain and Arc Projector).

The damage powers can do is insignificant compared to the CC they provide. Enemies hanging out near rooftops, knocked down, neural shocked, frozen etc etc don't shoot back - that makes a huge difference. Adepts need to use their own powers, their squad and weapons in a symphony of destruction. When shooting down the defenses of one enemy and throwing him/her to the ground allows you to ignore him/her for a while and focus on something else. It takes 1-2 seconds to kill enemy (not using powers), but that time can mean the difference between life and death with multiple enemies around who (like the initial target) are still shooting you.

Rwoar, this is starting to get frustratingly tedious.

Health does not matter because nothing suffers penalties when fighting it, does that make sense? There is no negative, so saying that Adepts doesn't suffer when fighting pure health enemies and is therefore balanced is redundant, because no other class suffers negatives either.

[Evilsod]

Roxlimn wrote...

Evilsod:

From what evidence are you getting the information that Heavy Throw does "minor damage?" The damage Heavy Throw does on Barrier defenses is significant. Two will strip defenses of Collectors (and Vanguards) on Hardcore, which is functionally equivalent to a Warp, since Throw has half the cooldown. If the enemy has already damaged Barriers, Throw removes it more efficiently than Warp.

Once defenses are down, Throw is better than Warp, so no, not all powers work best when defenses are down. I'd say the same about things like Overload.

If Throw did something more than its current damage and a stagger, it would be better than Warp against Barrier defended enemies across the board. That's just silly. Again, you obviously did not know this, even though it's perfectly obvious once you start doing it. Evidently, you haven't been using Heavy Throw against defended enemies at all.

On Hardcore? You can sneeze on an enemy and watch its defence layer drop. By the time your 1st Throw has reached its target you could've just popped out and shot it a few times with any weapon and dropped its defences. Hell if you arced it enough you could probably use Pull and drop its defences before it connected.

Yes you believe that the adept is the 'thinking mans' class if it makes you feel better about yourself Bender. Once you've got the passive and biotic cooldown stuff you can just sit there spamming Throw or Pull or Singularity or Warp or Reave till the cows come home and things will eventually die because thats just how the game works.

[Schneidend]

I love how the stagger effect is being completely dismissed by people who have no idea what they're talking about. On a nearby mook like a Blue Suns Trooper or Vorcha, a stagger is long enough for the player to run up to them, put a gun to their head, and quickly burn them down with the double damage bonus for melee range. For the Adept the Tempest and Predator are incredibly effective for this. Become a shotgun Adept, and the effectiveness is magnified.