667 réponses à ce sujet

[swn32]

I agree with Spamming troll, the sidearms are really gimped in comparison to AR, SR and SG. Those weapons are also much better defense strippers than any adept power. For example, geth plasma shotgun eats through praetorean barriers and heavy mech shields like nobody's business.

[The Spamming Troll]

Ahglock wrote...

As the game is currently designed I think it is fair.  The infiltrator gets the sniper rifle mainly because his class exclsuive power is kind of designed for it.  It would be like making a thief character in a fantasy game with a back stab power but not giving them knives or swords as their equipment.  While you can play the infiltrator without a sniper rifle, I think the clear intent of cloak is sniper set up.  The adept is actually more powerful than the infiltrator power wise IMO, so I don't see a issue.  Also how they designed the game pistols and SMGs means all enemy protections are covered, so what the adpet needs is covered fine.  Any other weapon past that point is more about extra ammo, and riding the gravy train, not about what the adpet needs. 

im not saying the infiltrator shouldnt have the sniper rifle, it should. its a great class, cloaking and slo mo widowing, theres nothing wrong with it. i dont think the adept is more powerfull ability wise. as a matter of fact it might seem somewhat worse. if you take into consideration the infiltrators ammo powers, debuffs, and extra weapon to the adepts singularity, and warp bombing without sqaudmates, yay.  i dont think theres a whole lot of sense in saying the adept should be stuck with sidearms, because its a caster class. maybe if you play games with rogues and wizards, but im an elite galaxy saving super soldier. give me a gun, please!

Ahglock wrote...

Now
personally if I had designed the game, there would not be ammo powers
and all the classes would have the same number of active powers.  They
would just have different sources/effect.s  The soldier would have
things like covering fire powers, maybe fortification style powers,
maybe a kill shot power(does X damage in a single shot so not out of
cover long etc.)  Then every class owuld start with every weapon,
because I think its lame that shepard somehow got through basic training
without learning how to use an assault rifle. 

i agree with this somewhat tho. i like the look of the ammo effects too much to want them removed. they adot ALOT to gameplay for me, especially the CCing ones. more ability options is always a good idea. id be nice to have a somewhat diverse pool of abilities and construct your class who you please. i like the ideas for soldiers that do more then enhance weapons. youd have to minimize ARs effectiveness if the soldier had access to abilities that did more things for it. its a tough line to crawl. some like it one way, some like it the other, so it seems. its not only wierd that shepard cant fire an AR, its weird that he has to wait until recruiting tali to finally get his hands on a decent SMG. its pretty redic.

[termokanden]

If you have the Kasumi DLC you could use the Locust. Been using it a lot on my Infiltrator on insanity and it's a beast of a gun. Precise even at range, good damage, TONS of ammo. In fact it does a better job of being an assault rifle than some of the assault rifles.

[Ahglock]

The Spamming Troll wrote...


i agree with this somewhat tho. i like the look of the ammo effects too much to want them removed. they adot ALOT to gameplay for me, especially the CCing ones. more ability options is always a good idea. id be nice to have a somewhat diverse pool of abilities and construct your class who you please. i like the ideas for soldiers that do more then enhance weapons. youd have to minimize ARs effectiveness if the soldier had access to abilities that did more things for it. its a tough line to crawl. some like it one way, some like it the other, so it seems. its not only wierd that shepard cant fire an AR, its weird that he has to wait until recruiting tali to finally get his hands on a decent SMG. its pretty redic.

I don't want ammo removed, I just don't think it should be a power.  I'm mean really putting in a different ammo requires special training?  About the only one that seems like a power is warp ammo, the rest are just ammo which any one should be able to use.  Andt he entire gear system in ME2 is redic.  Cobra Commander dumped 2 billion dollars into making Serpentor(I mean Tim rezed Commander Shepard) and then he hands him a pistol and a SMG and says good luck storming the castle?  He didn't think maybe he should drop an extra million or 3 to make sure he has all the gear he'd ever need.  ME1 wasn't much better in that regard but specters kind of had deniable asset vibe so resources were not exactly thrown at them, still didn't make sense though that you were buying your crap when working for the allaince for the council. 

[The Spamming Troll]

id like a return to weapon and armor mods. if they want to add more RPG elements, a decent inventory is a great place to start. theres alot of weird things tho. isnt it weird that were burning fuel when were on the normandy roaming the holographic map?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 11 février 2011 - 05:37 .

[Roxlimn]

Evilsod:



You could shoot off Barrier, but that actually requires you to be good at aiming. If you're not that good, you can use Heavy Throw and take off a target's defenses in two cycles - about 2 seconds in the late game, or a little over 3 seconds in the start. This is particularly useful when the target is behind cover, of you're using cover yourself to block enemy fire.



Combining Throw with Pull isn't about prolonging ragdoll time. This is obvious to anyone who's ever used this combo, so I can't imagine that you use it that much. At low levels, Pull+Throw is so that you can Throw targets off ledges. Once you're on Heavy Throw, you can just outright kill the target with damage using Pull+Throw. Just aim the Throw up and forget about the target - it's dead regardless of where it lands.



The Spamming Troll:



An Adept's power slate is significantly more powerful than an Infiltrator's. The power differential is about equal to having a Widow as opposed to just having a Viper (which is precisely the situation later in the game). Early in the game, an Adept can have a harder time, but that's mainly because he doesn't get biotic upgrades. Still, you can go through the game using gun upgrades (which are more readily available) for the sidearms. Lots of sniper upgrades you don't get early on.



The Widow does NOT trump "anything the Adept can do late game." Using an Adept, you can clear one target's defenses quickly with guns, and Warp Bomb the target almost as soon as the encounter arrives. At that point, the entire encounter is reduced to cleanup phase using Pull and Throw - hardly a challenge. An Infiltrator can get through the same encounter with a Widow, but it'll take longer and it's not nearly as interesting or flashy.



In fact, in several instances that are clearly demarcated in my mind, I've used the Adept's power slate to instantly clear one encounter, rush to the next, and render that one easy as well. Here I'm talking about Miranda's loyalty mish. If you use Miranda and Jacob (but you can use Garrus and Jack, or whoever), you can clear the Shields of a clump of three mercs in one go using Area Overload, then Pull with Jacob (both are nearly instantaneous), then followup with Warp. You can clear the encounter faster than you can Storm through it.



Then Storm to the next area just in time for Jacob's Pull to clear cooldown, shoot off the defenses offa a center target, Warp Bomb again. Then control the room with Sing and Pull. Easy Peasy.



Seriously, once you get basic upgrades going, I can't imagine how you can find the Adept weak unless you make a point of using the wrong power for the wrong job every time. I mean, even if you randomly mash buttons, you've got to get it right some time.



What, do you actually use bare Warp on Health? Don't tell me you actually bother to shoot away target Health? That takes frickin forever on Insanity. If you want to do that, you might as well play a Soldier and at least make the boredom go faster.

[swn32]

I dont think Infiltrators are way stronger than Adepts. The real question is why does soldier class make insanity look like a joke.

[Schneidend]

Soldier only makes Insanity look like a "joke" if all you do is turtle from cover with AR. If you use AR like a gimped charge to close in on enemies, things get much more exciting. But, then, the Commando and CQC styles are just more fun all-around.

[swn32]

So basically what you're saying is, soldier only makes insanity look like a joke if you use AR effectively. Its much more exciting if u waste AR running towards enemies. Why would anyone do that? Isn't it the games job to challenge us.

Edit: Its not just AR that makes soldiers imbalanced. Having Assault rifle, sniper and shotgun all at once also counts.

Modifié par swn32, 11 février 2011 - 08:54 .

[termokanden]

I agree about weapon and armor mods by the way. I really liked those. Of course the system needed some serious balancing, but then it could certainly work again.

[The Spamming Troll]

Roxlimn wrote...

The Spamming Troll:

An Adept's power slate is significantly more powerful than an Infiltrator's. The power differential is about equal to having a Widow as opposed to just having a Viper (which is precisely the situation later in the game). Early in the game, an Adept can have a harder time, but that's mainly because he doesn't get biotic upgrades. Still, you can go through the game using gun upgrades (which are more readily available) for the sidearms. Lots of sniper upgrades you don't get early on.

The Widow does NOT trump "anything the Adept can do late game." Using an Adept, you can clear one target's defenses quickly with guns, and Warp Bomb the target almost as soon as the encounter arrives. At that point, the entire encounter is reduced to cleanup phase using Pull and Throw - hardly a challenge. An Infiltrator can get through the same encounter with a Widow, but it'll take longer and it's not nearly as interesting or flashy.

Seriously, once you get basic upgrades going, I can't imagine how you can find the Adept weak unless you make a point of using the wrong power for the wrong job every time. I mean, even if you randomly mash buttons, you've got to get it right some time.

i really dont think its that comparable at all. the adept has singularity and the capability to create their own warp bombs. altho any class can create warp bombs, so its hardly a big deal the adept can do it alone. you can argue the adept has alot of skills and should seem somewhat tactical, but with global cooldowns, you dont need more then singularity and warp. throw, pull, shockwave, slam are all essentially the same, atleast to me. ofcorse the adept can take stasis to become a little better CCer, but the infiltrator can also take stasis and play the adepts role almost just as well. charge alone on the vangaurd is better then any combination of powers the adept can put together, plus the vangaurd gets pull and an extra weapon. really they made the game seem like the adept, engi, and sent should be the ones with the MOST weapons.

infiltrators get cloak maybe the best defense and offensive ability in game, slow mo snipeing, the option to take the WIDOW as well as having the adpets weapons, effective ammo powers, and a few varying debuffs. the infiltrator without a bonus talent or a bonus weapon would be equal to the bonus weapon bonus talent adept.

i understand that your good at this game because you know when to respec and you know what squadmates to bring along. im not worried about challeneging someone whose as great as you are. i just dont see how you can argue that an adept doesnt spam singularity, followed by warp while playing insanity. no upgrade in the game will make an adept play any differently then it already does. using anything other then singularity would be using the wrong ability, unless half second stagger effects get you off.

[mcsupersport]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

The Spamming Troll:

An Adept's power slate is significantly more powerful than an Infiltrator's. The power differential is about equal to having a Widow as opposed to just having a Viper (which is precisely the situation later in the game). Early in the game, an Adept can have a harder time, but that's mainly because he doesn't get biotic upgrades. Still, you can go through the game using gun upgrades (which are more readily available) for the sidearms. Lots of sniper upgrades you don't get early on.

The Widow does NOT trump "anything the Adept can do late game." Using an Adept, you can clear one target's defenses quickly with guns, and Warp Bomb the target almost as soon as the encounter arrives. At that point, the entire encounter is reduced to cleanup phase using Pull and Throw - hardly a challenge. An Infiltrator can get through the same encounter with a Widow, but it'll take longer and it's not nearly as interesting or flashy.

Seriously, once you get basic upgrades going, I can't imagine how you can find the Adept weak unless you make a point of using the wrong power for the wrong job every time. I mean, even if you randomly mash buttons, you've got to get it right some time.

i really dont think its that comparable at all. the adept has singularity and the capability to create their own warp bombs. altho any class can create warp bombs, so its hardly a big deal the adept can do it alone. you can argue the adept has alot of skills and should seem somewhat tactical, but with global cooldowns, you dont need more then singularity and warp. throw, pull, shockwave, slam are all essentially the same, atleast to me. ofcorse the adept can take stasis to become a little better CCer, but the infiltrator can also take stasis and play the adepts role almost just as well. charge alone on the vangaurd is better then any combination of powers the adept can put together, plus the vangaurd gets pull and an extra weapon. really they made the game seem like the adept, engi, and sent should be the ones with the MOST weapons.

infiltrators get cloak maybe the best defense and offensive ability in game, slow mo snipeing, the option to take the WIDOW as well as having the adpets weapons, effective ammo powers, and a few varying debuffs. the infiltrator without a bonus talent or a bonus weapon would be equal to the bonus weapon bonus talent adept.

i understand that your good at this game because you know when to respec and you know what squadmates to bring along. im not worried about challeneging someone whose as great as you are. i just dont see how you can argue that an adept doesnt spam singularity, followed by warp while playing insanity. no upgrade in the game will make an adept play any differently then it already does. using anything other then singularity would be using the wrong ability, unless half second stagger effects get you off.

Actually throwing Singularity to warp bomb off it is one of the worst ways to play adept.  I did that the first bit while playing the harder levels and quickly learned Singularity isn't your bombing power, Pull is, Sing is for traps and holding enemies.  Yeah, you can bomb the trapped guy, but most of the time I am using that power on something that will not die in one bomb, an elite guy.  You should learn to use a power stripper on a guy, maybe shoot some, then use area pull because it is faster cooldown and faster to target power.  Usually by the time pull gets to a target if arced some, then the cooldown is up and you are ready to bomb them.

So if you are spamming only singularity and warp you aren't playing the Adept up to potential.  Also on many maps Miranda's loyalty included you can pull enemies and forget them to let them drop to their death as pull expires.  There are many more deathdrops on maps than most poeple realize.

[JaegerBane]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I'm doing my 2nd adept insanity run now. I've done a couple soldier insanity runs and an infiltrator. Personally, I find a solider a little dull in comparison to an adept. AR, shoot. AR shoot. AR shoot. AR punch. I keep it interesting only by running madly around making woo woo noises.

Adepts are much more fun.

That said, I modded this current game to give me all the weapons except the heavy. Hate heavy weapons. Was kind of fun at first, swapping back and forth. But when it came right down to it, I never exploit all my weapons. Sniper for bit. Locust. Maaaybe pull out the shotty once in a while. I think its maybe made it a bit more fun but not much. Stuff dies pretty fast either way. I should probably CQC a bit more, I know. Sitting in the back, you really don't need powers. But I still don't really see anything gimped here.

I'm in a similar boat. I think the issue is that modding an Adept (or any other class) to carry the Soldier's payload doesn't make much difference to the gameplay. Soldiers gain most of their power from Adrenaline Rush, not really the guns.

To be honest, I think the most straightforward thing would be to just give Assault Rifles and Pistols to every class from the get go. Possibly with the choice to add another one later on.  Christina herself said that their isn't really any 'pure classes' in this game, they're all supposed to rely on powers and combat to a certain degree, and given how the game is so orientated towards shooters all the classes might as well be properly equipped.

[termokanden]

I still think that would be a bad design decision. Why should all classes have access to the same gear? It's the little differences that count when replaying the game. I also like how you can look forward to the weapon training on the Collector ship. Feels better to earn something than to start out with it.

[swn32]

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm in a similar boat. I think the issue is that modding an Adept (or any other class) to carry the Soldier's payload doesn't make much difference to the gameplay. Soldiers gain most of their power from Adrenaline Rush, not really the guns.

Although I do agree that most of soldiers power comes from Adrenaline Rush, it would be wrong to say that guns have no role to play. Considering soilder is the only class that can have a Mattock+Widow+GPS loadout. Widow and GPS themselves are very powerful defense strippers. Here's a video to show what i mean.

[Schneidend]

swn32 wrote...

So basically what you're saying is, soldier only makes insanity look like a joke if you use AR effectively. Its much more exciting if u waste AR running towards enemies. Why would anyone do that? Isn't it the games job to challenge us.

You fire while you're using AR to close in on enemies or at the end of the AR as you arrive in an enemy's face, thus getting the range multiplier in addition to the multiplier from AR on your damage.

Edit: Its not just AR that makes soldiers imbalanced. Having Assault rifle, sniper and shotgun all at once also counts.

The Soldier is meant to be versatile. This is one of his only real advantages over other classes who have more active powers. It is hardly imbalanced.

[swn32]

Schneidend wrote...

The Soldier is meant to be versatile. This is one of his only real advantages over other classes who have more active powers. It is hardly imbalanced.

They are versatile its true, but thats not ther only advantage. Weapons do have a much higher DPS than active powers, unless u are able to consistently hit 3 or more targets targets with one power. Weapons are also much better defense strippers, For example, a charged GPS at point blank can take out the shields of a YMIR mech in less than 2 seconds. With AR active, the pointblank range requirement is lifted.To do the same thing with powers, it would require atleast 9 overloads even with all research upgrades.

Anti-defense multipliers of weapons are insane (x2.25 against armor for widow, x2.25 against shields for gps). Also the fact that these multipliers act upon AR's +140% damage bonus, makes it all the more imbalanced. So just the damage bonus which u get because of AR, is much greater than the damage any single power can do (assuming u use the right weapon for the job), and it has a cooldown of just 3 seconds. Totally imbalanced i say.

Modifié par swn32, 12 février 2011 - 10:20 .

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm in a similar boat. I think the issue is that modding an Adept (or any other class) to carry the Soldier's payload doesn't make much difference to the gameplay. Soldiers gain most of their power from Adrenaline Rush, not really the guns.

Although I do agree that most of soldiers power comes from Adrenaline Rush, it would be wrong to say that guns have no role to play. Considering soilder is the only class that can have a Mattock+Widow+GPS loadout. Widow and GPS themselves are very powerful defense strippers. Here's a video to show what i mean.

I didn't mean to say guns play *no* role - my point was more that adding stacks of guns to an Adept doesn't actually make the game any easier (though it certainly makes them more fun). While Soldiers obviously gain benefits from their wide access to firepower, that in itself isn't necessarily a major advantage. The Infiltrator, for instance, gains many of the same firepower-related advantages despite lacking access to as much firepower.

It's also worth pointing out that neither the Mattock nor the GPS are particularly well-balanced. Obviously loading up with a stack of OP DLC gear is going to make any class hard as nails - using the gear that was initially balanced in the game paints a very different picture.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 12 février 2011 - 10:41 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

I still think that would be a bad design decision. Why should all classes have access to the same gear?

Because a class's gear isn't solely their defining factor. Infiltrators aren't amazing snipers purely because they get the Widow, they're amazing snipers because they carry damage-boosting cloaking devices and sniper scope bullet-time. Soldiers are not amazing commandos purely because they can wield both rifles, they're amazing because of their crazy class power and ammo for every occasion.

Gear has relatively little impact on how a class plays in comparison to their power set. My fave Adept build is a heavily modded Adept which, among other things, carries a Revenant Soldier's payload. He doesn't play anything like a soldier, though. He plays like an Adept with more guns.

It's the little differences that count when replaying the game. I also like how you can look forward to the weapon training on the Collector ship. Feels better to earn something than to start out with it.

To be honest I found that part a bit absurd for non-soldiers. While for soldiers, finding a state-of-the-art piece of firepower on an alien ship made sense, for anyone else it was magically leanring how to use a weapon they already had in the armoury - apparently in response to discovering the collector's origin

[Therefore_I_Am]

Teknor wrote...

Kronner wrote...

This video says it all.

That video shows a lot of skill. It's unfair to expect that much of a skill from regulars here.

I see a few glitch exploits in there...

Watch the scion and YMIR mech go insantly from full health to none right after stasis wears off.

[Graesslich]

I see a few glitch exploits in there...

Watch the scion and YMIR mech go insantly from full health to none right after stasis wears off.

Are you sure that's an exploit? While they're downed after stasis they're supposed to take something like 3.5x bonus damage. Add the bonus damage from a heavy weapon or Warp...

[tonnactus]

Roxlimn wrote...


Also, Throw's damage to Barriers is significantly increased on the Heavy Evolution, .

Who cares about that? Why use throw against barriers when warp is the power to use against that?

[tonnactus]

Schneidend wrote...

I can agree that choosing a loadout would be superior to what we have now, but one game can only do so much. ME1 didn't handle things much better,

It does. After unlocking the weapons,they were available for all other classes right from the beginning.This was much better then now.

[Roxlimn]

tonnactus:

Ah, but Warp isn't the only power to use against Barriers. You were assuming it, and so you don't understand. This is much like the barrier The Spamming Troll experiences. He can't imagine an Adept playing better than Gatsby, when Gatsby himself tells everyone that his demo vids aren't really anything special. He detonates off of Singularity for god's sake. For one dude. Awful, awful waste of cooldown.

Throw does considerable damage to Barriers. You use this power to strip the remaining defenses of targets who may have been partially damaged by Warp Explosions, gunfire, or someone else's partially developed Warp. Doing so saves on cooldown, so you can detonate Warp one cycle faster than you otherwise would have been able to do. Saving cooldown makes fights go faster and significantly increases the impact and power of Adept Shepard.


The Spamming Troll:

i understand that your good at this game because you know when to respec and you know what squadmates to bring along. im not worried about challeneging someone whose as great as you are. i just dont see how you can argue that an adept doesnt spam singularity, followed by warp while playing insanity. no upgrade in the game will make an adept play any differently then it already does. using anything other then singularity would be using the wrong ability, unless half second stagger effects get you off.

This right here - this is the problem. You can't imagine using any Adept power other than Warp and Singularity because you've never tried and don't want to try. I'd be willing to bet that if Gatsby hadn't shown you vids, you'd still be thinking Warp is the only worthwhile power and wouldn't know what the hell a biotic combo is.

Singularity is NOT the best power for setting up Warp Explosion. Gatsby loves to do this because that's his thing, but it's not ideal - in fact, it's quite slow. Singularity is for holding defended dudes so that they don't fire at you. If you're going to fire at them and then detonate them subsequently, then you don't need to ameliorate fire from that sector. The Warp Explosion will do that for you already, and it's faster to set up using Pull.

If you're only controlling one area, Singularity is a dangerous power to have because it's so tempting to use - and then you're out on cooldown and have to use guns because you wasted power. Throw and Pull are powerful and versatile because the cooldown is so short that the fire arc animation almost covers the whole of it. When fighting Husks, you shoot, then Throw, then shoot, and by the time you get off ONE shot, Throw is ready again. It's that fast.

Due to the nature of Singularity fire arc, I could have a Warp Explosion done and over with in the time it takes for ONE Singularity to waltz on over to where it's supposed to float your enemies. You still have to fire. I'm already advancing. You can do that, too, if you only tried. It's not hard. None of the stuff I've been saying is hard. One only has to do it.

Example: bunched group of 3 mercs with Elite Vanguard. Singularity, right? NO. Strip off the defenses offa one guy, then Pull-Warp ASAP. Should take 3-5 seconds to pull off. This estimate constitutes the application of minimal gunfire, or a stripping power, and then combination Pull-Warp.

Not all those targets will die, but most of them will have their defenses stripped, and ragdolled. Advance on the mooks, Singularity the Vanguard (who will still have secondary defenses at this point). If you used an area defense-strip, then only the Vanguard will be left alive. Sing-shoot-Throw. Why Throw? Because throwing him off a ledge kills him faster than gunfire. Done and done.

Throw is a versatile power, but it won't win you the game singlehandedly. It's not Adrenaline Rush, so you're going to be roundly disappointed when you go into a game trying to use Throw on everything. It's devastating when applied correctly, but you have to apply it correctly before you see results. Heck, just using it at all would count for something, come to think of it.


An Adept can be played using mainly Singularity-Warp, but even Gatsby doesn't spam only those powers, and he's crazy about Sing. I have played an Adept with only 1 point in Singularity on Insanity (and only because it seemed a waste not to have one measly point in such a useful power). I used Pull to set off the Explosions, then Throw Field for point control around the field in combination with my one-point Singularity. I barely used cover after an Explosion since most of the time, no one was shooting back. It got so I forgot I could do it (hunker under cover, that is) at one point.

Other peeps max Pull Field instead of Throw. Less damage, less insta-kill and less bombastic, but very heavy and easy on field control. I've respecced into that. It's a nice take. Then you have Heavy Throw variants - it's like having a Widow that curves around corners, and doesn't require ammo.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 12 février 2011 - 10:29 .

[tonnactus]

Roxlimn wrote...

tonnactus:

Ah, but Warp isn't the only power to use against Barriers

Its still the most effective one.And if someone has to choose between throw and heavy throw,not many would choose heavy throw just for additional barrier damage.

And that was the point.The heavy power "evolutions" are just pointless in every case except singularity(the crowd control powers).