667 réponses à ce sujet

[Zahe]

Ahglock wrote...

Zahe wrote...

There is a difference between using and spamming an ability.

But if you plan on using the powers you will be spamming singualrity a lot on insanity, because it chain staggers people through defenses, holds choke points etc.  If it isn't in the field currently, the ridiculous vast majority of the time it is the most efective move you can make.  Sure you can not use it if you want to.  But in virtually every fight on insanity, your go to power at some point for the most effect will be singularity.  If you are not spamming it, chances are you are making things harder on your self.  Given its long duration, you might only put 2 or 3 up in a fight though, so its not like a warp spamer where you might hit it every cooldown.

The same can be said for most classes.  On insanity who doesn't use AR on their soldier, who doesn't virtually spam drones, or tech shield, or charge.  Your signiture move is bad ass for all the classes, yeah you can not use it, but chances are you are taking a hit in effectiveness to do so.  Many of these powers have such a long duration, spam might not be the right term, but if they are not up currently using them now is a good choice.

The moment you compared Singularity to AR or Charge you basically disproved your entire post. If you are spamming it that much, you are doing it wrong. It is a great ability, sure, but not nearly as used as you make it out to be. There are more then one way to strip defenses, hint: Your squadmates.

[Bozorgmehr]

Irzhen wrote...

Using a power 2 or 3 times a fight hardly seem spamming it unless that fight is really short or that is the only thing you do. Since you can only have one singularity active spamming it is counter produtive. In fact, from all signature abilities, I think singularity is one of the less used a lot in the same fight.

Indeed, Singularity works more in a preemptive fashion: You use it to disable/hinder enemies while you focus on something else, and checking back after a couple seconds it will have removed all/most of enemy defenses giving the option to either use enemy as a bomb (warp) or finish enemy using Throw / gunfire.

Unlike all other unique powers, Singularity needs time to do its work - there's travel time and instead of direct damage, Singularity inflicts damage over time, the moment enemies have lost protection new options become available. All in all the most complex power to use to its full potential in ME2. I think that's one of the main reasons Adepts are considered 'underpowered' on Insanity. Having played other classes before, might give the impression Singularity works like the other unique powers and spamming it is the route to success. Adepts are unique because they work best using all their powers combined instead of one super-power over and over again.

Zahe wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Zahe wrote...

There is a difference between using and spamming an ability.

[...] If you are not spamming it, chances are you are making things harder on your self.  Given its long duration, you might only put 2 or 3 up in a fight though, so its not like a warp spamer where you might hit it every cooldown.

The moment you compared Singularity to AR or Charge you basically disproved your entire post. If you are spamming it that much, you are doing it wrong. It is a great ability, sure, but not nearly as used as you make it out to be. There are more then one way to strip defenses, hint: Your squadmates.

I think that's exactly what Ahglock tried to explain in the first place

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 01 janvier 2011 - 09:45 .

[Zahe]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I think that's exactly what Ahglock tried to explain in the first place

Are you sure?

Ahglock wrote...

But if you plan on using the powers you will be spamming singualrity a lot on insanity

Seems like I misunderstand the concept of spamming. To me 2 or 3 per fight, on Insanity where the fights last longer then ten seconds, is hardly spamming.

Modifié par Zahe, 01 janvier 2011 - 10:34 .

[Bozorgmehr]

@ Zahe; I think the definition of 'spamming' is causing this; Singularity is an excellent power and very effective in 99% of the fights; Adepts should make good use of its power hence will use it often; once-trice every fight. That's what, I think, Ahglock tries to explain.

[Ahglock]

Zahe wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I think that's exactly what Ahglock tried to explain in the first place

Are you sure?

Ahglock wrote...

But if you plan on using the powers you will be spamming singualrity a lot on insanity

Seems like I misunderstand the concept of spamming. To me 2 or 3 per fight, on Insanity where the fights last longer then ten seconds, is hardly spamming.

Bozorgmehr is understanding my point.

I'll cut down my old post to the key points.
  If it isn't in the field currently, the
ridiculous vast majority of the time it is the most efective move you
can make.     Given its long duration, you
might only put 2 or 3 up in a fight though, so its not like a warp
spamer where you might hit it every cooldown.
Many of
these powers have such a long duration, spam might not be the right
term, but if they are not up currently using them now is a good choice.

So to try to explain it again.  There are 2 types of unique class ability spams IMO.  Charge and AR style which have a short duration/cooldown so you use them a ridiculous number of times.  And singularity/drone spam.  It has a long duration, but you put it up almost imeadietly once it is down or if you have not put it up yet.  You open fights with them and once it goes down, you thow them again.  Spam may not be the best term, but it seems to fit well enough.  Go to power if you prefer. 

Now the soldier is the ultimate spammer IMO because he really has no other abilities worth a damn so he really only uses AR.  The vanguard can only use charge, and it might even be the best strategy, but at least he has enough abiliites that he can be played differently.  Sentinel is simlar in that it can live off tac shield, but it has enough versatility to play differently if it wants to. 

Outside the soldier I don't consider any of this a negative.  Your special class power should be used like this.  Otherwise why play the class.  Without singulairty, there is very little reaosn not to play a vanguard, unless you need warp and pull at the same time.  Even then you can probably go with sentinel and take slam and fake it good enough. 

Sorry for the bad spelling.grammar.  I'm dyslexic and have a hard time proof reading things, and this board seems ot not have a spell check when you quote people and pasting in things causes awful formatting issues. 

Modifié par Ahglock, 01 janvier 2011 - 11:41 .

[Sparrow44]

It's only classed as spamming if you're using it when you don't really need to and another option is available, for example if an enemy is already down to health then Pull or Throw or simply shooting to save the cooldown may be a better option as it does save time and yield the same result.

I think Singularity is best on a tough protected enemy to disable 'em and on a group of foes, either way it's capable of taking out multiple foes at once if used right and should never be spammable given the situation.

Singularity is a very good power and really 'shouldn't' be spammable IMO.

[Zahe]

Ahglock wrote...

Zahe wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...
I think that's exactly what Ahglock tried to explain in the first place

Are you sure?

Ahglock wrote...

But if you plan on using the powers you will be spamming singualrity a lot on insanity

Seems like I misunderstand the concept of spamming. To me 2 or 3 per fight, on Insanity where the fights last longer then ten seconds, is hardly spamming.

Bozorgmehr is understanding my point.

I'll cut down my old post to the key points.
  If it isn't in the field currently, the
ridiculous vast majority of the time it is the most efective move you
can make.     Given its long duration, you
might only put 2 or 3 up in a fight though, so its not like a warp
spamer where you might hit it every cooldown.
Many of
these powers have such a long duration, spam might not be the right
term, but if they are not up currently using them now is a good choice.

So to try to explain it again.  There are 2 types of unique class ability spams IMO.  Charge and AR style which have a short duration/cooldown so you use them a ridiculous number of times.  And singularity/drone spam.  It has a long duration, but you put it up almost imeadietly once it is down or if you have not put it up yet.  You open fights with them and once it goes down, you thow them again.  Spam may not be the best term, but it seems to fit well enough.  Go to power if you prefer. 

Now the soldier is the ultimate spammer IMO because he really has no other abilities worth a damn so he really only uses AR.  The vanguard can only use charge, and it might even be the best strategy, but at least he has enough abiliites that he can be played differently.  Sentinel is simlar in that it can live off tac shield, but it has enough versatility to play differently if it wants to. 

Outside the soldier I don't consider any of this a negative.  Your special class power should be used like this.  Otherwise why play the class.  Without singulairty, there is very little reaosn not to play a vanguard, unless you need warp and pull at the same time.  Even then you can probably go with sentinel and take slam and fake it good enough. 

Sorry for the bad spelling.grammar.  I'm dyslexic and have a hard time proof reading things, and this board seems ot not have a spell check when you quote people and pasting in things causes awful formatting issues. 

Alright, sorry for the misunderstanding. I interpreted spam as spending the majority of your CDs on one certain ability. I agree that if Singularity isn't on the field, it is more often then not the way to go.
I also agree that only Soldiers are influenced by the bad kind of spam in this game. Even a Vanguard who spends 90%+ of his CDs on Charge does have to use it tactically. A bad Charge will kill you. Never seen that with AR.

@ Zahe; I think the definition of 'spamming' is causing this;
Singularity is an excellent power and very effective in 99% of the
fights; Adepts should make good use of its power hence will use it
often; once-trice every fight. That's what, I think, Ahglock tries to
explain.

Agreed, Singularity is the hands down best zone control ability in the game. Ignoring that would be foolish.

Modifié par Zahe, 02 janvier 2011 - 12:41 .

[Siegdrifa]

Irzhen wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

Zahe wrote...

There is a difference between using and spamming an ability.

But if you plan on using the powers you will be spamming singualrity a lot on insanity, because it chain staggers people through defenses, holds choke points etc.  If it isn't in the field currently, the ridiculous vast majority of the time it is the most efective move you can make.  Sure you can not use it if you want to.  But in virtually every fight on insanity, your go to power at some point for the most effect will be singularity.  If you are not spamming it, chances are you are making things harder on your self.  Given its long duration, you might only put 2 or 3 up in a fight though, so its not like a warp spamer where you might hit it every cooldown.

The same can be said for most classes.  On insanity who doesn't use AR on their soldier, who doesn't virtually spam drones, or tech shield, or charge.  Your signiture move is bad ass for all the classes, yeah you can not use it, but chances are you are taking a hit in effectiveness to do so.  Many of these powers have such a long duration, spam might not be the right term, but if they are not up currently using them now is a good choice.

Using a power 2 or 3 times a fight hardly seem spamming it unless that fight is really short or that is the only thing you do. Since you can only have one singularity active spamming it is counter produtive. In fact, from all signature abilities, I think singularity is one of the less used a lot in the same fight.

May be using and spamming have different meaning for some people.
In my case you will often see an active singularity on the screen, but it can last for more then 20 seconde, so, it's more "refresh" than "spaming".

The only stuation i'm spaming it, it's against husk, because when they walk inside with their armor and their number, the singularity disapear in 3 / 4 seconde, in this case yeah, i'm spaming because i creat a new singularity when the cd is up.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:36 .

[tonnactus]

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

It makes sense that a fast moving quadraped to be able to escape better then a slow moving biped.
[/quote]
No it doesnt.First,they dont escape.They just ignore it.Second,without their armor,they get sucked in and their speed doesnt play any role then.

[/quote]
[quote]And that geth primes resist a 1000 newton throw while melee attacks not even allow them to shoot back...[/quote]
Here you are falling into the common trap of seeing what is on the screen instead of what is happening.[/quote]

Sorry,but that meleeing a big metal robot into death ,preventing him to even shot back works while master throw fails to do anything to it doesnt make any sense at all.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:01 .

[tonnactus]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

calling it a learning curve seems ridiculous to me. theres no curve. insanity means spam singularity, spam your squadmates debuffs, and spam your weapon. its not enhancing my gameplay, its taking away from it. enemy protections only show a poor attempt at offering a challenge.

That is right.Instead on using diverse enemy groups they just gimped biotics.
Why not have enemy engineers in every enemy group that could damp biotic powers for example?
Or soldiers using the flashbang grenades(at least this happended in kasumis mission or that of liara) or ammo that increase biotic cooldown.
Mass Effect main game is as deep as rock paper scissors.

[Irzhen]

tonnactus wrote...

That is right.Instead on using diverse enemy groups they just gimped biotics.
Why not have enemy engineers in every enemy group that could damp biotic powers for example?
Or soldiers using the flashbang grenades(at least this happended in kasumis mission or that of liara) or ammo that increase biotic cooldown.
Mass Effect main game is as deep as rock paper scissors.

I don't think anyone said anything about being deeper than rock paper scissors. In fact I recall lots of people saying and agreeing with that, there isn't really any complex fight. Everything you need to do is know how to not get flanked. Everything else is explained...

Enemie engineers damping biotics wouldn't work and would probably be worse. You can use biotics to stagger when enemies have protetions, cc them when they don't. Make them work with protetions and get an engineer to damp them. Now you can't use them to stagger, nor to cc. Your solution to improve biotics would make biotics even worse. Unless they made a long cd to do that on that engineer, but then all the challenge of playing an adept would be gone and it would be back to the god mode of ME1.

[tonnactus]

Irzhen wrote...


Enemie engineers damping biotics wouldn't work and would probably be worse.

It worked quite good in Bringing Down the Sky.

You can use biotics to stagger when enemies have protetions, cc them when they don't. Make them work with protetions and get an engineer to damp them. Now you can't use them to stagger, nor to cc.

No.I would be forced to take out the engineer first.Thats all. Also,making enemy biotics stronger and more then just warp bots. So they could do the same to shepardt that he could do to them.

Modifié par tonnactus, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:57 .

[sinosleep]

They took away enemy physics based powers because they were cheap as hell and as such people complained about that. If you took on a biotic heavy mission early on in ME 2 before you had your own CC powers sorted the mission wasn't hard due to any kind of player related issue, it was cheap as hell because the player had no direct counter and as such had to rely on luck.

You had to pray to god that the run straight at you in hordes AI didn't send more enemies than you could CC in .0 seconds or you were in for a few seconds of Shepard getting tossed around like a damned pinball, taking half a year to get up, only to once again get tossed around like a pin ball again adnausem until death.

It wasn't challenging, there was nothing skill based about it, and once you get to the mid levels where you had a few cc powers in the mid levels, and your squad had a few too, well then you could just CC rooms at a time. Before that though? The same completely luck based battle tactics.

Please don't let the run at the player while ignoring all cover enemy AI reach me with a large enough number of enemy biotics that I get stuck in a falling down animation until I die since I couldn't CC them the instant they appeared on screen.

I for one, am EXTREMELY happy they tossed aside physics based powers for the enemy AI.

At least direct damage powers allow the player to counter without having to resort to an insta-CC rotation of player and squad powers at the very sight of enemy biotics.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:14 .

[Irzhen]

tonnactus wrote...

It worked quite good in Bringing Down the Sky.

There was damping there?
j/k
Only thing that was remotly a challenge there was that respawning rocket drone on one of the bases. The engineer that damped things was quite vulnerable to any biotic, so as any regular enemy he was killed, fast.

tonnactus wrote...

No.I would be forced to take out the engineer first.Thats all. Also,making enemy biotics stronger and more then just warp bots. So they could do the same to shepardt that he could do to them.

Taking down one enemy first hardly increases combat complexity. It's already like that. And again, biotics working on protetions would make that engineer do what? Scare you to death by his incredible spins and mortals while floating?

Agree on making enemy biotics more diverse, but not stronger. One warp already staggers and take all your shields on insanity, more powerfull and might as well making it as an auto load. But they should use other powers. I liked a lot when Vasir tried to shockwave/charge me to death xD 

[Irzhen]

sinosleep wrote...

They took away enemy physics based powers because they were cheap as hell and as such people complained about that. If you took on a biotic heavy mission early on in ME 2 before you had your own CC powers sorted the mission wasn't hard due to any kind of player related issue, it was cheap as hell because the player had no direct counter and as such had to rely on luck.

You had to pray to god that the run straight at you in hordes AI didn't send more enemies than you could CC in .0 seconds or you were in for a few seconds of Shepard getting tossed around like a damned pinball, taking half a year to get up, only to once again get tossed around like a pin ball again adnausem until death.

It wasn't challenging, there was nothing skill based about it, and once you get to the mid levels where you had a few cc powers in the mid levels, and your squad had a few too, well then you could just CC rooms at a time. Before that though? The same completely luck based battle tactics.

Please don't let the run at the player while ignoring all cover enemy AI reach me with a large enough number of enemy biotics that I get stuck in a falling down animation until I die since I couldn't CC them the instant they appeared on screen.

I for one, am EXTREMELY happy they tossed aside physics based powers for the enemy AI.

At least direct damage powers allow the player to counter without having to resort to an insta-CC rotation of player and squad powers at the very sight of enemy biotics.

That was annoying, but if they kept the biotics won't work on protections for enemies too it wouldn't be so bad. You couldn't control them, they couldn't control you. Of course that it would have to have some tweaks because your shields don't last anything on insanity but it would add diversity. Although I would hate to have enemy vanguards charge...That wouldn't be pretty.

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...

They took away enemy physics based powers because they were cheap as hell and as such people complained about that. If you took on a biotic heavy mission early on in ME 2 before you had your own CC powers sorted the mission wasn't hard due to any kind of player related issue, it was cheap as hell because the player had no direct counter and as such had to rely on luck.

Damping.Combat exoskeletons.Lure enemies one after another.Grenades.
All things that increase hardening.
Tactics,right?
There was even an ammo that increases power cooldowns.
They better take enemy "biotics" out completely instead of bothering me with heavily armed warpbots that are described as an "asari commando". Or "engineers" that spam only one power.Less enemies,but better ones.
Biotics are dangerous for a reason in the lore. Actual gameplay should reflect that.(you played dragon age,right?/even "white" mages could do a lot of harm/did anyone complained that enemy were overpowered in Dragon Age?)
What comes next? Removing harbingers form of singularity that took you of cover because its cheap?

Modifié par tonnactus, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:18 .

[sinosleep]

Harbinger tosses a projectile you can see coming and as such dodge. No where near the same thing as facing multiple biotics in ME 1 and getting tossed about like a rag doll cause you couldn't CC everything on screen the instant it appeared. This was only truly relieved in TWO ways, get to mid level so you and your squad could CC entire rooms in no time flat (equally devoid of strategy), or get lucky. This looks like yet more ME 1 did this perfectly regardless of how many people, including devs, thought otherwise.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:08 .

[Kronner]

tonnactus wrote...

Damping.Combat exoskeletons.Lure enemies one after another.Grenades.
All things that increase hardening.
Tactics,right?
There was even an ammo that increases power cooldowns.
They better take enemy "biotics" out completely instead of bothering me with heavily armed warpbots that think they are an "asari commando". Or "engineers" that spam only one power.Less enemies,but better ones.
Biotics are dangerous for a reason in the lore. Actual gameplay should reflect that.(you played dragon age,right?/even "white" mages could do a lot of harm/did anyone complained that enemy were overpowered in Dragon Age?)
What comes next? Removing harbingers form of singularity that took you of cover because its cheap?

I'd love to see Damping and Throw back.

Enemy flashbang grenades in ME2 can be easily avoided and the Warp that a Vanguard fires at me does very little damage.

That said, ME1 was basically kite shooting all the time. These attacks you mentioned were used against you only if you were too slow or forgot to spam all the CC powers as soon as you could. I'd still take ME2's combat over ME1's any day and twice on Sundays.

Modifié par Kronner, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:10 .

[AntiChri5]

No it doesnt.First,they dont escape.They just ignore it.Second,without their armor,they get sucked in and their speed doesnt play any role then.

They do escape. They escape it by running through it without being staggered. This is escaping. And yes, it makes sense that they are easier to capture once weakened.

Sorry,but that meleeing a big metal robot into death ,preventing him to even shot back works while master throw fails to do anything to it doesnt make any sense at all.

Yes, it does.

Stop seeing what is on the screen and instead see what is happening.

What is on the screen? Shepard is punching it over and over.

What is actually happening? Shepard is meleeing it to death.



See past the combat animations and instead think about what that involves.

[tonnactus]

sinosleep wrote...

Harbinger tosses a projectile you can see coming and as such dodge.

The same was true with throw. It was possible to doge it.

No where near the same thing as facing multiple biotics in ME 1 and getting tossed about like a rag doll cause you couldn't CC everything on screen the instant it appeared. 

Send some one in so the one gets the attention.Someone like wrex who had a high physical resistence from his battlemaster skill. And the multiple biotics are not a suprise by any way.It clearly was stated in the quest description.So if a player goes in unprepared with at least one tech like garrus or tali,it was his fault.Plain and simple.
Not every mission hs to be doable right at the start of a game anyway. At least in rpgs. Orzammar,as an example from Dragon Age was also designed in a way that the player should be at least level 14 before do this mission. Had anyone had a problem with that?

[ryoldschool]

AntiChri5 wrote...

No it doesnt.First,they dont escape.They just ignore it.Second,without their armor,they get sucked in and their speed doesnt play any role then.

They do escape. They escape it by running through it without being staggered. This is escaping. And yes, it makes sense that they are easier to capture once weakened.

Sorry,but that meleeing a big metal robot into death ,preventing him to even shot back works while master throw fails to do anything to it doesnt make any sense at all.

Yes, it does.
Stop seeing what is on the screen and instead see what is happening.
What is on the screen? Shepard is punching it over and over.
What is actually happening? Shepard is meleeing it to death.

See past the combat animations and instead think about what that involves.

I do see the point that melee does a lot more damage than would appear "reasonable".  I'm not complaining, but melee works thru any defense.  Maybe shepard has sooper-d-dooper brass ( pick your element ) knuckles that we can't see.

[tonnactus]

AntiChri5 wrote...

What is on the screen? Shepard is punching it over and over.

Yes,that make sense.Punching a big,heavy robot to death by a organic(cyber netic upgrades make a human stronger then a geth prime) weakling makes more sense then actually use biotics on it.
The thing not even shoot back...
Or that someone like a harbinger drone is captured by a singularity,but varren and fenris mechs are not .Sure.
If you really think that,its better to stop this discussion.

Modifié par tonnactus, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:29 .

[sinosleep]

tonnactus wrote...

Yes,that make sense.Punching a big,heavy robot to death by a organic(cyber netic upgrades make a human stronger then a geth prime) weakling makes more sense then actually use biotics on it.
The thing not even shoot back...
Or that someone like a harbinger drone is captured by a singularity,but varren and fenris mechs are not .Sure.
If you really think that,its better to stop this discussion.

I need to ask if that was intended cause I'll admit that aspect of ME 2 is pretty damned silly.

[AntiChri5]

Yes,that make sense.Punching a big,heavy robot to death by a organic(cyber netic upgrades make a human stronger then a geth prime) weakling makes more sense then actually use biotics on it.

The thing not even shoot back...

Or that someone like a harbinger drone is captured by a singularity,but varren and fenris mechs are not .Sure.

If you really think that,its better to stop this discussion.

Did you even read my post? You missed my point entirely.



There is a difference between what is shown on screen and what is happening. On screen, Shepard is doing the same boring punch animation over and over and over.

But what is that meant to show? It is meant to show that Shepard has engaged the Geth in melee combat. Shepard wouldn't just punch, he would grab the enemies gun or lock it's arm in place or kick its legs out from under it and kill it.



You are paying more attention to the animation then to the action it represents. Once Shepard has engaged it in melee, he has many ways to prevent it from firing, while it has heavy armour plates designed to keep it from being affected with a biotic throw.

[Heather Cline]

I personally liked the Adept. It was the only class I could use to get through the Insanity mode. Soldier, Infiltrator, Engineer... and so on I couldn't even make it through insanity without being killed tons of times.



Yes people have differing opinions on the matter. I'm just saying that it's all in how you play the Adept class that makes the game fun.