667 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Zahe wrote...
In ME2 you can use the same approach, but being tactical makes the combat both easier and faster.

Yeah,i was really tactical in Mass Effect too.As a soldier,on geth mission activate disruptor ammo(or krogan mission fire ammo,on collector missions warp ammo).Spam adrenaline rush and spray with the revenant or any other weapon i had at that time...
Basic tactic for adept: Singularity,shoot away "protection",follow with warp. Rinse and repeat.
Soo tactical.

By the way,people who find Mass Effect insanity tedious just never used warp.Otherwise they wouldnt complain.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 12:03 .

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...
By the way,people who find Mass Effect insanity tedious just never used warp.Otherwise they wouldnt complain.

I used Warp on Insanity.  Two members of my squad had it mastered with decent cooldown reduction.  It still wasn't enough.  So yeah, I'm complaining about Insanity in ME1 and I used Warp extensively.  However, I did like Warp as a skill in ME1.  I wish there had been a skill like it in ME2, or ME2's Warp had a different name as it is such a different power.

It boggles my mind how you can complain about repetitive combat in ME2 and then suggest that one skill is needed for ME1 Insanity.

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

Soo tactical.

Can you elaborate which shooter you consider really tactical? What are the basics? Or do you prefer a RTS style Mass Effect?

By the way,people who find Mass Effect insanity tedious just never used warp.Otherwise they wouldn't complain.

Warp didn't help much and enemies being hard to kill is one thing, but the ability to disable all enemies indefinitely / make Shep un-killable isn't fun. What you might consider tactical, I consider boring. What's the point in playing a shooter without enemies who shoot back?

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

I used Warp on Insanity.  Two members of my squad had it mastered with decent cooldown reduction.  It still wasn't enough. 

If that wasnt enough(even krogans drop like flies),the biotics in Mass Effect actually allowed it to prevent enemies to use immunity.With that and any ammo that stop health regeneration insanity was just a blast.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

lazuli wrote...

I used Warp on Insanity.  Two members of my squad had it mastered with decent cooldown reduction.  It still wasn't enough. 

If that wasnt enough(even krogans drop like flies),the biotics in Mass Effect actually allowed it to prevent enemies to use immunity.With that and any ammo that stop health regeneration insanity was just a blast.

Fair enough, but would you say that an entire difficulty's playability hinging on one skill led to more tactical gameplay than we saw in ME2?

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...


Warp didn't help much and enemies being hard to kill is one thing, but the ability to disable all enemies indefinitely / make Shep un-killable isn't fun.

That happened late in the game(not when someone start insanity from level one).Without colossus armor,every enemy sniper could kill shepardt very easily in one shot.
Every geth armature or heavy turret could kill shepardt in one shot.The rocket drones on luna in the thrid bunker also could killed shepardt very easily with a team of two techs with sabotage.
At least an adept or vanguard shepardt.
Also,enemies had damping in Mass Effect and the game has tech enemies in nearly every main mission.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...


Fair enough, but would you say that an entire difficulty's playability hinging on one skill led to more tactical gameplay than we saw in ME2?

Geth were the main opponents in the game.
You fought and killed far more geth then organic opponents.
Geth didnt have immunity. Sabotage and ai-hacking were more usefull in that case.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 12:40 .

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

That happened late in the game(not when someone start insanity from level one).Without colossus armor,every enemy sniper could kill shepardt very easily in one shot.

Yeah real tactical. That was something I hated about ME1; enemies could one-shot you without anything you could do about it. No skill, no plan, nothing can/could stop it from happening.

Every geth armature or heavy turret could kill shepardt in one shot.The rocket drones on luna in the thrid bunker also could killed shepardt very easily with a team of two techs with sabotage.

Idem, one or two skills made a difference - more extreme than in ME2 IMHO.

Also,enemies had damping in Mass Effect and the game has tech enemies in nearly every main mission.

Idem, there's no fun in having your powers/weapons sabotaged randomly. I'm glad BW removed these nonsense in ME2. You can at least screw up and still survive long enough to get cover to save Shep's ass - no more random deaths.

ME2 combat isn't perfect, but it's far better than ME1 - and just as "tactical"

[lazuli]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
ME2 combat isn't perfect, but it's far better than ME1 - and just as "tactical"

I would argue that it's more tactical.  While there might be more happening behind the scenes in ME1 (greater importance of gear, mods in gear, passive skills, etc), the combat itself is certainly deeper in ME2.

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Yeah real tactical. That was something I hated about ME1; enemies could one-shot you without anything you could do about it. No skill, no plan, nothing can/could stop it from happening.

Wrong.Sabotage and take out the snipers first.Who didnt had immunity and were very easy to kill.

Idem, one or two skills made a difference - more extreme than in ME2 IMHO.

Better then that using no skills making much difference,right? That is possible in Mass Effect 2.That was impossible in Mass Effect . You couldnt kill a charging krogan by just holding the trigger down. Or just use heavy weapons.
I could also add that damping make encounters with biotic enemies far easier. In fact,without it the thorian bossfight would have required a lot of reloads.

Idem, there's no fun in having your powers/weapons sabotaged randomly.

There was no random factor about it. Mass Effect doesnt have a variable number of enemies that sometimes spawned right in your back...
You knew after a couple of playthroughs what kind of enemies use what kind of attack and could prepare for it.Damping prevented enemy engineers and geth hoppers to use sabotage.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 01:04 .

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...
ME2 combat isn't perfect, but it's far better than ME1 - and just as "tactical"

I would argue that it's more tactical.  While there might be more happening behind the scenes in ME1 (greater importance of gear, mods in gear, passive skills, etc), the combat itself is certainly deeper in ME2.

Mass Effect has sabotage and damping.That what would be called disabling abilites.Mass Effect without Dlc completly lacked those things-->Missed out an entire type of tactics.

Only with stasis and the flashbang grenade those things came back.And great that enemies actually used flashbang in the Dlcs too.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 01:09 .

[Zahe]

tonnactus wrote...

Zahe wrote...
In ME2 you can use the same approach, but being tactical makes the combat both easier and faster.

Yeah,i was really tactical in Mass Effect too.As a soldier,on geth mission activate disruptor ammo(or krogan mission fire ammo,on collector missions warp ammo).Spam adrenaline rush and spray with the revenant or any other weapon i had at that time...
Basic tactic for adept: Singularity,shoot away "protection",follow with warp. Rinse and repeat.
Soo tactical.

By the way,people who find Mass Effect insanity tedious just never used warp.Otherwise they wouldnt complain.

Yes, lets take the worst designed class and a subpar playstyle from ME2 and compare it to a glorified version of ME1s combat. Sounds ****ing great.

The defense layers adds more depth to the combat, period. Even though I would love for someone to try to argue otherwise, would be pretty fun.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...


Mass Effect has sabotage and damping.That what would be called disabling abilites.Mass Effect without Dlc completly lacked those things-->Missed out an entire type of tactics.

Only with stasis and the flashbang grenade those things came back.And great that enemies actually used flashbang in the Dlcs too.

If you know anything about Guild Wars, you might be able to tell from my avatar/signature that I am desperately in love with this kind of gameplay- when it makes sense.  Damping was poorly executed in ME1.  I agree though that enemies with a greater variety of [balanced and appropriate] abilities is a good thing.  But I think I've sidetracked this thread long enough.

[Bozorgmehr]

tonnactus wrote...

Wrong.Sabotage and take out the snipers first.Who didnt had immunity and were very easy to kill.

My Adept had neither Sabotage nor a SR. Shep just bumped into the middle of camps (Mako) or ran into rooms, immediately CC ed the lot and finished them at will. If you didn't know there were snipers in a room, you were doomed.

Better then that using no skills making much difference,right? That is possible in Mass Effect 2.That was impossible in Mass Effect . You couldn't kill a charging krogan by just holding the trigger down. Or just use heavy weapons.

Krogan could fly as high as Colossi - with some biotics available they were a joke, target practice actually.

I could also add that damping make encounters with biotic enemies far easier. In fact,without it the thorian bossfight would have required a lot of reloads.

Yeah that was real tactical; who's going to hit whom first.

There was no random factor about it. Mass Effect doesnt have a variable number of enemies that sometimes spawned right in your back...
You knew after a couple of playthroughs what kind of enemies use what kind of attack and could prepare for it.Damping prevented enemy engineers and geth hoppers to use sabotage.

Where exactly are enemies spamming at your back? They come through doors a couple times, and collectors fly into battle, but that's about it. I actually would like that, would make fights more dynamic - no more get cover, stay there til all enemies are destroyed tactics

Damping is one of the things breaking ME1 gameplay, just like biotics. They trivialize everything, no resistance whatsoever. Raising difficulty only meant more time needed to kill enemies, that's not the case in ME2.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...


If you know anything about Guild Wars, you might be able to tell from my avatar/signature that I am desperately in love with this kind of gameplay- when it makes sense. 

And it does.All weapons use systems to improve aiming.Things that could be damaged at least temporary with some kind of emp attack.So sabotage make sense. Maybee more then a misdirection hex in Dragon Age.(did the mage somehow manipulated the mind of the warrior then???)

Damping was poorly executed in ME1. 

Why? It never failed.

[tonnactus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

My Adept had neither Sabotage nor a SR.

But your shepardt has a party,right? That what ironicly is a recommendation for all adept players in Mass Effect 2:
To use a party.

If you didn't know there were snipers in a room, you were doomed.

Stop kidding.The game even called them snipers and gave them armor with other colours.They were always easy to spot.And if that wasnt enough,at least the red laser should point out that a sniper tried to assinate you. How more easy games should become?

Krogan could fly as high as Colossi - with some biotics available they were a joke, target practice actually.

That wasnt the point.You needed biotics to stop charging krogans in the first game.Now,only some ammo powers are needed at best.Not even that really.

Yeah that was real tactical; who's going to hit whom first.

Real battles are different from that how?? Make some targets to a priority and take them out first.For adepts those were snipers and enemy engineers.
And that is something i would call real tactics.Not to slap blue icons on my gun to take out shields.

Where exactly are enemies spamming at your back?

On the purgatory,near the entrace where the second ymir comes.A blue sun turian shotgunner could come magicaly through a point shepard couldnt pass through right in the back...
Regarding the variable number of enemies they should have at least made it possible to have the enemy radar permanently up.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 01:40 .

[kstarler]

tonnactus wrote...

Better then that using no skills making much difference,right? That is possible in Mass Effect 2.That was impossible in Mass Effect . You couldnt kill a charging krogan by just holding the trigger down.

I try to avoid posting in discussions like this, for the reason that opinions rarely change based on internet agrument.

However, I want to point out how utterly backwards this statement is. In ME2, if you hold down the Pistol/SMG trigger with the gun pointed at a charging Krogan on any difficulty above Casual, you will most likely die. If you do it on Hardcore/Insanity, you will die.

However, in ME1, with force ammo (Hammerhead/Sledgehammer) or a shotgun, it is perfectly possible to keep a Krogan knocked to the ground and simply shoot him until he dies. In fact, on Insanity, I found this to be the preferable method, because he can't use Immunity if you knock him to the ground quickly enough.

Modifié par kstarler, 16 janvier 2011 - 01:39 .

[Sparrow44]

tbf Sabotage trivialized any fights with stuff like turrets and armatures/colossi in ME1 and meant you could kill them without the need of biotics (which felt very overpowered IMO) and even the master version could lock-down a cluster at once. Damping I don't get at all, hoppers and the asari commando's on Noveria were the only times it was needed and the 'stun' effect was negligible not to mention not many enemies had powers like that needed disabling.

As for Adepts in ME2, in all honesty to get decent gameplay out of them you have to think outside the box in order to succeed and by that I mean play less like ME1 Adept and use guns in sync with powers which is something I think was thought out from all the classes compared to ME1.

[tonnactus]

kstarler wrote...
. In ME2, if you hold down the Pistol/SMG trigger with the gun pointed at a charging Krogan on any difficulty above Casual, you will most likely die. If you do it on Hardcore/Insanity, you will die.

No,i didnt.First,in most cases the thing will be dead even from heavy pistol shots long before it reachs you.Even when they charge,the damage basicly take out only the shields or the barrier.
Powers just save a lammo.(which is plenty,even on insanity)
Flamethrower vorchas are actually more dangerous then krogans in this game.
By the way,sledgehammer didnt work on warlords or battlemasters.I didnt even see it work most of the time on regular krogans.Only on geth destroyers.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 janvier 2011 - 01:48 .

[tonnactus]

Sparroww wrote...
Damping I don't get at all, hoppers and the asari commando's on Noveria were the only times it was needed .

Only Eden Prime didnt have hoppers...
Damping was especially needed in Bringing Down the Sky.Otherwise you could fight the incoming varren with ineffective melee attacks.

[kstarler]

tonnactus wrote...

kstarler wrote...
. In ME2, if you hold down the Pistol/SMG trigger with the gun pointed at a charging Krogan on any difficulty above Casual, you will most likely die. If you do it on Hardcore/Insanity, you will die.

No,i didnt.First,in most cases the thing will be dead even from heavy pistol shots long before it reachs you.Even when they charge,the damage basicly take out only the shields or the barrier.
Powers just save a lammo.(which is plenty,even on insanity)
Flamethrower vorchas are actually more dangerous then krogans in this game.
By the way,sledgehammer didnt work on warlords or battlemasters.I didnt even see it work most of the time on regular krogans.Only on geth destroyers.

For the record, I'm not talking about Krogan elites or Geth, I'm talking about the specific example that you used, which is charging Krogan, in general. If we're talking elites, then please feel free to show video of killing any of the elite Krogan in ME2 with just your heavy pistol. Or of crossing the bridge on Korlus on Insanity without using cover or powers, just your heavy pistol to kill the infinitely spawning Krogan without them killing you.

EDIT: Upon re-reading what I posted, I'm curious if there are any videos showing folks strolling through the game without using any powers at all. The only videos I see are from those proving either that X class is effective on Insanity, or showing how to effectively run through specific areas of the game as X class. Where are the Adepts using only Heavy Pistols and SMGs to stroll through every level, if that's all that is required?

Modifié par kstarler, 16 janvier 2011 - 02:20 .

[Sparrow44]

tonnactus wrote...

Sparroww wrote...
Damping I don't get at all, hoppers and the asari commando's on Noveria were the only times it was needed .

Only Eden Prime didnt have hoppers...
Damping was especially needed in Bringing Down the Sky.Otherwise you could fight the incoming varren with ineffective melee attacks.

Varren? It'll stop them for about one second and it wears off again, squadmate biotics and Neural Shock are better options for charging enemies (varren, krogan). Although BdtS had engineers as well so I'll give you that in regards to Damping but still compared to the other tech powers it still fell far behind.

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

Yeah, I just finished playing some Gears of War 2 like five minutes ago.  I dropped the Theron Guard's shields with a well placed Overload, then stripped his armor with Incinerate.  Well, that's not really how it happened.  I just sprayed with the Mulcher until he was reduced to a red mist.

i wouldnt compare ME1 to gears of war, but ME2 is an exact ripoff of gears of wars combat. obviously gears doesnt have biotics and tech mines or mirandas ass. id like to think people who post in here would be intelligent enough to understand the comparisons im trying to make.

Zahe wrote...

ME2's combat is so much better then ME1's
was on high difficulties it's laughable. In ME1 you had to spam your
gimmick skill and wittle opponents down by blasting each goon like 20
times. In ME2 you can use the same approach, but being tactical
makes the combat both easier and faster. You actually get rewarded for
being good compared to ME1's mediocricy.

i think your mixing up games here. ME1s only gimmicky abilities were singularity and immunity. singularity could be taken for any class so theres no complaint about not having it in your arsenal, but give a soldier singularity and its goodbye challenge. but on the other hand ME2s entire combat system revolves around one skill for each class. if your not constantly hitting Y, your playing your character wrong(im talking about insanity by the way).

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Warp didn't help much and enemies
being hard to kill is one thing, but the ability to disable all enemies
indefinitely / make Shep un-killable isn't fun. What you might consider
tactical, I consider boring. What's the point in playing a shooter
without enemies who shoot back?

warp caused 75% reduction in DP. that doesnt help much? this is where people like you aand kstarler and people like tonactus and myself differ. you like ME2, we like ME1. there far too different games to be considered 2 parts to a trilogy. when ME3 comes out i wonder how similar to ME2 itll actually look. maybe ME3 will rip off halo this time around.

kstarler wrote...

I try to avoid posting in discussions like this, for the reason that opinions rarely change based on internet agrument.

liar.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 16 janvier 2011 - 06:07 .

[Bozorgmehr]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

warp caused 75% reduction in DP. that doesnt help much? this is where people like you aand kstarler and people like tonactus and myself differ. you like ME2, we like ME1. there far too different games to be considered 2 parts to a trilogy. when ME3 comes out i wonder how similar to ME2 itll actually look. maybe ME3 will rip off halo this time around.

Well go play the crappy ME1 then, I don't see your problems. You and Tonactus like no oppossition at all, tedious take out Snipers, Engineers, Biotics first (coz if they hit you first you're death); CC everything indefinitely, having to shoot indefinitely to bring down enemies. And yes Tonactus, I think it's just stupid guns alone couldn't bring down a single Krogan. Warp didn't help much, even with 3 Warpers in squad.

Tonactus keeps going on about meleeing Geth Primes and Singularity not working on dogs etc. Well, in ME1 Geth Primes can't do sh-t, and although Lift could handle Colossi it couldn't lift a small drone - really cool and makes perfect sense.

The vast majority of ME2 players like that combat system much better, if you don't - don't play ME2 - go Gears of War if ME2 is a simple ripoff - strange that it won the IGN GOTY eh? Such a bad game, where enemies have something to protect them form being turned into target practice instead. They call it defenses and I love it, my Adept can still die - that's not the case in ME1, no fighting whatsoever.

[The Spamming Troll]

i dont think your arguments have much merit in this situation, bozo. insainty is tediouse in ME1, but it doesnt entirely change the basic fundamentals of a class like it does in ME2. ofcorse a level 60 adept is gonna tear it up on insanity, but that doesnt mean those first two playthroughs of that character wasnt a very difficult challenge.

warp turned enemies protection into butter. i dont know how you can dismiss such a handy ability so easily.

lift didnt work on drones because drones are already lifted. if humans could fly, lift wouldnt be very effective on them either, now would it. that makes sense to me. what doesnt make sense is shields/barrier/armor blocking 90% of the abilities in this game. shields/barrier/armor that takes away 90% of the game. insanity takes away the adepts very soul. i STILL honestly dont know how you cant see it that way, because thats exactly what insanity represents for the adept.

if i payed IGN enough id win game of the year as well.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:08 .