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Does this spell the end for the warden?


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#26
PinkysPain

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Saibh wrote...
But that's not what they're doing with the Warden. If the series ended after DAO, I wouldn't have felt left hanging. I would be majorly disappointed my favorite new franchise (and possibly favorite game ever) isn't going any further, but I wouldn't be crying out for my lost Warden. To me, DAII is an extension of the Dragon Age story, which is more important than the Warden's, and something I'm very happy to see.

It's a story set in the same world, with some recurring characters ... but no real part of the original story is being continued.

The original story was about two things mainly, the blight and succession ... the blights go on (and their origins are still in question) and the latter was ended. For DA2 to continue the story of the first it would have to be about the blights (not necessarily another blight, just connected to them). Not a war with horned barbarians from over the seas, which I think is complete non sequitur to be honest.

Neither the protagonists nor the plot tie the two games together, a curious decision IMO.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:14 .


#27
upsettingshorts

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It takes place in the same universe and the story extends chronologically beyond anything in DA:O or DA:A. That fits the definition of a sequel just fine.

Dragon Age is about Thedas. I look at it like... a fictional history. If I told you the story of the Hundred Years War and then in the next book talked about the Wars of the Roses - it'd still be part of a series about English history.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:15 .


#28
TMZuk

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

It takes place in the same universe and the story extends chronologically beyond anything in DA:O or DA:A. That fits the definition of a sequel just fine.

Dragon Age is about Thedas. I look at it like... a fictional history. If I told you the story of the Hundred Years War and then in the next book talked about the Wars of the Roses - it'd still be part of a series about English history.


It would indeed, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want, that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the feeling off -this is it-.

Modifié par TMZuk, 28 décembre 2010 - 05:00 .


#29
Jamesnew2

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yeah i spose your right but to me it just brings back the harsh memories of kotor 2 not featuring revan bastilla etc as the main story cuz they were just awsome charactor's personally i felt their could be a lot more to get out of em... not in a shoddy mmog with a monthly fee... And even tho you might not get the most out of the warden morrigan zeveran etc all had more to give... meh probably me just going on a rant again but hell another dragon age game is still awsome.

#30
Amagoi

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This can't spell the end, there's no 'i' in the end.

Okay, now that I have that horrible joke out of my system. I'm happy if I never see my Warden again. You don't have to see them ride off into the sunset or die to have their story to be over. Plot threads that the Warden touched on are going to come up again, Morrigan and Flemeth being the most obvious, but I doubt we'll see the Warden again.

#31
upsettingshorts

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TMZuk wrote...

It would inded, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want, that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the feeling off -this is it-.


Well, I didn't actually say I thought the Warden's story had a satisfying conclusion.  But I look at that as a positive for a very specific reason:  Bioware isn't going to make an ending I'd like so by leaving it ambiguous, I can simply imagine one for him or her. 

What if they made a DLC called SimGwaren in which the Warden settled down with Leliana to run the domain granted to them by the boon?  I'd be happy.  That's the ending my (main) Warden wanted.  I don't expect a lot of other players would enjoy that.  The number of choices available to the player - origins included - makes designing DLC that appeals to all of them really rather difficult - ask a bunch of people here what stories they'd like to see their Warden take part in and you'd get a ton of different answers.  That's why I think the vague "that's not the last we saw of them" epilogue cards aren't so bad.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:27 .


#32
ElvaliaRavenHart

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

It would inded, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want, that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the feeling off -this is it-.


Well, I didn't actually say I thought the Warden's story had a satisfying conclusion.  But I look at that as a positive for a very specific reason:  Bioware isn't going to make an ending I'd like so by leaving it ambiguous, I can simply imagine one for him or her. 

What if they made a DLC called SimGwaren in which the Warden settled down with Leliana to run the domain granted to them by the boon?  I'd be happy.  That's the ending my (main) Warden wanted.  I don't expect a lot of other players would enjoy that.  The number of choices available to the player - origins included - makes designing DLC that appeals to all of them really rather difficult - ask a bunch of people here what stories they'd like to see their Warden take part in and you'd get a ton of different answers.  That's why I think the vague "that's not the last we saw of them" epilogue cards aren't so bad.

I might agree with you to a certain degree if those epilogue cards at the end didn't say you disappeared.  Then your boon does come into play for the warden at the end, the word disappear even changes the boon you asked for from the King/Queen.  It was like we were punished for taking our wardens into:  DAA, GOA, and WH.  Instead of choosing the US at the end of DAO.   It was a crappy way to end a fantastic game and the warden's story.   

#33
Brockololly

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Saibh wrote...
It bugs me a lot. I was quite peeved when they said they were discontinuing the DLC, as well as saying that they'd never promised two years worth after DAII was announced (which they did). It wouldn't haven't been so bad if Witch Hunt were not a major disappointment.

But still, I didn't need more DLC. I would have welcomed them, but thus far, the DLC for DAO was pretty shoddy. I don't think it was very well planned-out. And, as I said, I felt the Warden's story was over.

Thats the thing- if further DLC was going to remain subpar, then good riddance. The problem I have with Witch Hunt is that its far too short and doesn't deliver as an ending for the Warden or Morrigan. Its nice for the Warden that romanced Morrigan, but overall, it tried to shove Morrigan's plot into a 45 minute DLC and that just doesn't work. They should have either integrated Morrigan's plot into Awakening or had one last expansion pack or a lengthier DLC to wrap up Origins, not a DLC that mostly leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Saibh wrote...
They've sold plenty of DAO memorabilia. Action figures, lithographs, letter openers, clothes, whole swords...

I think that you have an incredibly shallow, simple-minded, and petty reason for claiming why this new direction is being taken. It's one thing to not like it, it's another to try and find some scheming ulterior motive because you don't like the way their story is going.


Well, having a fixed protagonist is better for their marketing- there is a reason why you have Sheploo as the face of ME and Hawke plastered all over the DA2 stuff. Its easier to market when you have a "default" version of the PC. I doubt that was a primary consideration, but I don't doubt that it wasn't brought up at all either.

TMZuk wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It  takes place in the same universe and the story extends chronologically  beyond anything in DA:O or DA:A. That fits the definition of a sequel  just fine.

Dragon Age is about Thedas. I look at  it like... a fictional history. If I told you the story of the Hundred  Years War and then in the next book talked about the Wars of the Roses - it'd still be part of a series about English history.


It would inded, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you  to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and  everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want,
that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people  happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the  feeling off -this is it-.

For me, it comes down to a sense of closure and satisfaction. After Throne of Bhaal, that was the perfect ending for my PC there and I was happy with how they closed out that series and moved on. In DA, for my Wardens that romanced Morrigan, after Witch Hunt there is some sense of closure, but that only remains until BIoWare brings back Morrigan. If they bring back Morrigan but handwave away my Wardens that went through the Eluvian with her or write them off, I'll be ticked off.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Well, I didn't actually say I thought the  Warden's story had a satisfying conclusion.  But I look at that as a  positive for a very specific reason:  Bioware isn't going to make an  ending I'd like so by leaving it ambiguous, I can simply imagine one for him or her. 


Again though, my issue is that for any Warden that went through the Eluvian with Morrigan, that ending only remains open ended until they inevitably bring Morrigan back. And given how they've given the player choice after choice to have the Warden follow and go along with Morrigan, if they bring back Morrigan without that Warden that romanced her, its pretty much disavowing the whole notion they're trying to perpetuate of the whole "no canon" aspect to DA.

Modifié par Brockololly, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:53 .


#34
upsettingshorts

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Brockololly wrote...

Again though, my issue is that for any Warden that went through the Eluvian with Morrigan, that ending only remains open ended until they inevitably bring Morrigan back. And given how they've given the player choice after choice to have the Warden follow and go along with Morrigan, if they bring back Morrigan without that Warden that romanced her, its pretty much disavowing the whole notion they're trying to perpetuate of the whole "no canon" aspect to DA.


Some stuff is canon though.  The Blight ended, the Mother was killed, Morrigan stepped through the mirror.

I didn't play Witch Hunt so forgive me if I'm off on the details - but if the Warden simply never made it out of wherever the mirror led to, Bioware could make that canon and since the decision as to what goes on on the other side of said mirror isn't a player choice - that'd be that, wouldn't it?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 décembre 2010 - 04:53 .


#35
themageguy

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um i think i saw somewhere in an interview that the warden sacrifice is a sort of canon. they were saying ppl who havent played origins are to select decisions for key events in origins for their da 2 game.

though i cant remember where i saw the interview.....

#36
upsettingshorts

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themageguy wrote...

um i think i saw somewhere in an interview that the warden sacrifice is a sort of canon. they were saying ppl who havent played origins are to select decisions for key events in origins for their da 2 game.
though i cant remember where i saw the interview.....


Default isn't canon. 

Default choices are made for players who did not play DAO or did not import a save from it.  

However the ultimate conclusions like "the Blight was ended" are canon as they remain constant in all version of the story.

#37
Brockololly

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Upsettingshorts wrote...
I didn't play Witch Hunt so forgive me if I'm off on the details - but if the Warden simply never made it out of wherever the mirror led to, Bioware could make that canon and since the decision as to what goes on on the other side of said mirror isn't a player choice - that'd be that, wouldn't it?


Absolutely BioWare could do that- they could have the Warden insta-gibbed Scanners style the second they stepped into the Eluvian. They could have the Warden off in Mirror World painting the shed and baking the bread while Morrigan is off doing whatever in DA3. But I'd find those sorts of things to be massive cop outs given how they've afforded the player choice with respect to Morrigan thus far.

They let you vow to search for Morrigan to several people several times at the end of Origins. In WH, if you romanced Morrigan, they let you go along with Morrigan either saying something to affect that you want to see and be there for your child or that you want to go along and help Morrigan. And Morrigan says something to effect of "Let us face the future together." So if DA3 comes along and Morrigan's big secret plot is hitting its stride and its ostensibly the biggest moment in Morrigan's life/plot and the Warden that was to "face the future together" with Morrigan is AWOL, thats just incredibly lame from my POV. 

Just having the Warden MIA during the big moments of Morrigan's plan in some future DA game or otherwise writing them off wouldn't amount to player choice really. You're likely going through the Eluvian to stay involved with Morrigan and her plot, not to be sidelined when it comes to fruition. Handwaving away the Warden's involvement in Morrigan's plans with the OGB and all that would amount to a GOTCHA moment in my view.

Just have to trust the writers on this and hope my Wardens don't get Gaider'd.

#38
themageguy

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im not disputing the inherit canon in the game ie blight mother etc, just mentioning what id seen one of the devs put in the interview.

Still, as much as i liked my warden im very excited about hawke and da 2. Afterall, i agree with some of the posters in this thread, dragon age is about thedas and the grey wardens are only one faction within the realm. I love the magic in this game.

#39
TMZuk

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

It would inded, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want, that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the feeling off -this is it-.


Well, I didn't actually say I thought the Warden's story had a satisfying conclusion.  But I look at that as a positive for a very specific reason:  Bioware isn't going to make an ending I'd like so by leaving it ambiguous, I can simply imagine one for him or her. 

What if they made a DLC called SimGwaren in which the Warden settled down with Leliana to run the domain granted to them by the boon?  I'd be happy.  That's the ending my (main) Warden wanted.  I don't expect a lot of other players would enjoy that.  The number of choices available to the player - origins included - makes designing DLC that appeals to all of them really rather difficult - ask a bunch of people here what stories they'd like to see their Warden take part in and you'd get a ton of different answers.


Which is why they should have made a final chapter to the story, like Throne of Bhaal, and include in that the choices the warden made during the game. E.G. The warden is summoned to Weisshaupt to report and explain, and is there embroiled in a vicious intrigue, leading to a conclusion where the Warden must make one final fateful descision. Just on top of my head, many other scenarios could be imagined.

Or origin specific DLC... that would give people reason to play DA:O again, to explore the different origins. IE, return to Highever for the Noble origin, uniting the Dalish for the Dalish origin, secure the City elves position etc etc.

There are plenty of things Bioware could have done with a game that was such a succes, but instead they choose to more or less drop the ball, and pick up a new one, alienating a lot of players in the process. Perhaps it will pay of for Bioware, only how well DA2 sells can determine that, but no matter what, we are more than a few fans of the first game who are left with a bad taste in the mouth.

#40
ElvaliaRavenHart

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themageguy wrote...

um i think i saw somewhere in an interview that the warden sacrifice is a sort of canon. they were saying ppl who havent played origins are to select decisions for key events in origins for their da 2 game.
though i cant remember where i saw the interview.....


I saw that same article but can't fully remember all of the decision flags that will matter.  However, this will be for players who never played the DA franchisee before who will pick up or want to play DA2.  For those who have followed the series from the beginning our decisions will matter and nothing is canon.

#41
Winter Wraith

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Chances are the most you'll ever see of the Warden again is a random encounter down some muddy backroad as Hawke and company pass the Warden and company with only a simple "Evenin'." muttered between the two groups.



Or, perhaps like this.

#42
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Terry Brooks Shannara series has been selling books for more years than many of you have been alive. Shannara is a setting for many, many different stories, from classic Hero's Journey to airships and flying cities and even a magical apocalypse in the more recent years. It's good stuff, it kicks butt, and it totally and irrefutably bones the "can't change character" argument.




#43
Selene Moonsong

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From what I can gather from the Devs in other similar topics, the Warden's tale is over. The main object of DA: Origins was to end the Blight. With that done, the Warden's tale was over after Origins, Awakenings, and Witch Hunt, should you have played the latter two.



As far as what is canon, it does not concern the Warden's choices. As I recall, for DA II, it seems that the Warden's tale and choices made on major points will be reflected in DA II. The default will be that of the Ultimate Sacrifice choice, and default does not mean canon; it is simply a default for DA II.

#44
RinpocheSchnozberry

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Brockololly wrote...

Thats the thing- if further DLC was going to remain subpar, then good riddance. The problem I have with Witch Hunt is that its far too short and doesn't deliver as an ending for the Warden or Morrigan. Its nice for the Warden that romanced Morrigan, but overall, it tried to shove Morrigan's plot into a 45 minute DLC and that just doesn't work. They should have either integrated Morrigan's plot into Awakening or had one last expansion pack or a lengthier DLC to wrap up Origins, not a DLC that mostly leaves a bad taste in your mouth.


I was annoyed at how Witch Hunt ended too... Until I realized the DLC wasn't about the Warden.  Witch Hunt is a coda to DAO, not an epilogue.  Witch Hunt sets up DA2 as much as it sets up DA3.  I'm sure that whatever Flemeth's goals are in DA2, they are pure manuvering leading up to the inevitable battle between her and Morrigan.  Witch Hunt had nothing to do with your Warden... the Warden's story was already over, epilogued, and left to your imagination.  The story that continues is the story of Thedas during the Dragon Age. 

The game wasn't called Grey Warden: Origins, it was called Dragon Age: Origins.





Again though, my issue is that for any Warden that went through the Eluvian with Morrigan, that ending only remains open ended until they inevitably bring Morrigan back. And given how they've given the player choice after choice to have the Warden follow and go along with Morrigan, if they bring back Morrigan without that Warden that romanced her, its pretty much disavowing the whole notion they're trying to perpetuate of the whole "no canon" aspect to DA.



The Warden's face was not retained in the save game files (I don't have a link for proof, but I'm pretty sure that's true) so in that sense the Warden is gone.  The choices the Warden made that impact the years called "the Dragon Age" are retained.  So there's nothing that's being disavowed or abandoned.  The setting is the main character in the Dragon Age games, no one person is the defining character.

#45
Fault Girl

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TMZuk wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

It would inded, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want, that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the feeling off -this is it-.


Well, I didn't actually say I thought the Warden's story had a satisfying conclusion.  But I look at that as a positive for a very specific reason:  Bioware isn't going to make an ending I'd like so by leaving it ambiguous, I can simply imagine one for him or her. 

What if they made a DLC called SimGwaren in which the Warden settled down with Leliana to run the domain granted to them by the boon?  I'd be happy.  That's the ending my (main) Warden wanted.  I don't expect a lot of other players would enjoy that.  The number of choices available to the player - origins included - makes designing DLC that appeals to all of them really rather difficult - ask a bunch of people here what stories they'd like to see their Warden take part in and you'd get a ton of different answers.


Which is why they should have made a final chapter to the story, like Throne of Bhaal, and include in that the choices the warden made during the game. E.G. The warden is summoned to Weisshaupt to report and explain, and is there embroiled in a vicious intrigue, leading to a conclusion where the Warden must make one final fateful descision. Just on top of my head, many other scenarios could be imagined.

Or origin specific DLC... that would give people reason to play DA:O again, to explore the different origins. IE, return to Highever for the Noble origin, uniting the Dalish for the Dalish origin, secure the City elves position etc etc.

There are plenty of things Bioware could have done with a game that was such a succes, but instead they choose to more or less drop the ball, and pick up a new one, alienating a lot of players in the process. Perhaps it will pay of for Bioware, only how well DA2 sells can determine that, but no matter what, we are more than a few fans of the first game who are left with a bad taste in the mouth.



I agree, thats my only problem with this whole Hawk business. I just feel like they were going to do something then chnaged their minds and just left the warden in mid air. All they needed to do was add a few slides at the end of Witch Hunt, saying what happened. Seriously anything would have satisfied me, not just my character walking out of the cave...."

Warden went off to see or do etc (with LI) then settled down or after many years of adventuring, made the decision to head into the deep roads etc etc"

I'm no writer but anything along those lines would have been fine.

:pinched:

(and with the whole Morrigan leaving me something and I cant even look!!!!)

#46
Brockololly

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Selene Moonsong wrote...
 As I recall, for DA II, it seems that the Warden's tale and choices made on major points will be reflected in DA II. The default will be that of the Ultimate Sacrifice choice, and default does not mean canon; it is simply a default for DA II.


If the GameZone preview is anything to go by it would seem that the Dark Ritual  ending with Alistair on the throne is the "default" choice for those without Origins saves, amongst the other options they outlined.


RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Witch Hunt had nothing to do with your Warden... the Warden's story was already over, epilogued,  and left to your imagination.

I'm sorry but as Cassandra might say, thats bull****.

Witch Hunt has everything to do with your Warden- thats why the whole thing varies depending on what Warden you import into it. The experience there with Morrigan is different in terms of interaction and what you're able to do depending on your Warden. Its impossible for any of us to say whether the Warden's story is actually over. Its over with respect to the 5th Blight and killing the Archdemon. But thats as much saying Luke Skywalker's story is over when he blew up the Death Star or that the Bhaalspawn's story was over when it killed Sarevok.


RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
The choices the Warden made that impact the years called "the  Dragon Age" are retained.  So there's nothing that's being disavowed or  abandoned.  The setting is the main character in the Dragon Age games,  no one person is the defining character.

Again, if they simply write off the Wardens that went through the Eluvian or handwave away the seeming impact of that choice when Morrigan returns, then yes, I would say that would be playing one big GOTCHA! card and disavowing the meaning of that choice as the player was presented it in WH.

But again, its the characters that make up the "Dragon Age." For me at least, it boils down to the characters- thats the reason I give a damn about the world of DA. Its not like Oblivion or the Elder Scrolls games where the world itself is a neat thing to explore; its through the characters and the PC's interactions with the characters that the world of Thedas has any kind of pulse.

And to me, when some big plot like the Dark Ritual is started at the end of Origins with the Warden and then left flapping in the breeze with no conclusion or consequence in sight, and your PC and the companions of Origins left to likely cameos and codex entries in the future, whats the point? Maybe the framed narrative in DA2 helps with having meaningful consequences to your actions, but for me, something like Morrigan and the DR should be dealt with down the road by the Warden(s). Simply shoving some new PC in there is just like meeting Bastila and Carth in KOTOR2 as the Exile or Aribeth in HotU- its devoid of any emotional engagement that was previously built up and becomes an academic exercise in seeing where the plot/timeline goes.

The story of DA may be about the overall timeline and "setting" but its via the characters and PC that the setting is worth anything to me. If meaningful, emotionally engaging resolution is provided before moving on, then great. But  when the characters and PCs simply become a revolving door style yearly roster update, while glaring loose ends and seemingly major plots and elements of player choice are left strewn about left and right, why should I give a damn anymore?

Modifié par Brockololly, 28 décembre 2010 - 06:23 .


#47
WidowMaker9394

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The Wardens fight the Blights.



The Blights are not the only things in the Dragon Age universe.

#48
In Exile

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TMZuk wrote...
It would indeed, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want, that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the feeling off -this is it-.


But they did finish the first. People seem to get really stuck up on "and the Warden did other things" epilogue in DA:A, but that's your standard classic RPG ending, where the writers avoid telling you what your character does for fear of overwriting the way you imagine the end to your adventure.

#49
JamieCOTC

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I don't mind the Warden's story being over. I just hated how it was handled after the Dark Ritual. The final of Awakening was awful and Witch Hunt was a $7.00 commercial for DA2.

#50
Matchy Pointy

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WidowMaker9394 wrote...

The Wardens fight the Blights.

The Blights are not the only things in the Dragon Age universe.


And judging from teh Blights so far, our Warden will probably not be alive by the next blight to fight it, and if he/she is, he/she would be far to old to fight it.