167 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Just having the Warden MIA during the big moments of Morrigan's plan in some future DA game or otherwise writing them off wouldn't amount to player choice really. You're likely going through the Eluvian to stay involved with Morrigan and her plot, not to be sidelined when it comes to fruition. Handwaving away the Warden's involvement in Morrigan's plans with the OGB and all that would amount to a GOTCHA moment in my view.

Just have to trust the writers on this and hope my Wardens don't get Gaider'd.

If Morrigain is an antagonist, you could just have the silent PC Warden as her guardian/protector. Hooded figure you can't see (swaps model based on race/class if you keep importing) and you can justify the lack of voice by an "injury" or something. The way they handled Revan in cutscenes, actually. You can even replace the Warden with a silent generic mook if your cannon is that the Warden did not follow Morrigain and remove some "my love" dialogue from cut-scenes. If Morrigain is always around to do the talking, that just gives you the "Duncan! Explain what happened to the HN family!" at Ostagar moment.

Since the PC agreed to go off with Morrigain, having the PC as her "knight" is totally acceptable. The player already consented to going along with her plan.

I think your problem with this is that you'd want the Warden to be the in-game PC with any Morrigain story. But that doesn't have to be the case at all to involve the PC into the story.

And as for any PC that didn't follow Morrigain? Just never caught the bus to wherever DA3 happens.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 décembre 2010 - 06:40 .

[TMZuk]

In Exile wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
It would indeed, and it would be just fine. What would be bad was for you to start a second book, without finishing the first. And you, and everyone who agrees with you, can claim as much as you and they want, that the Warden's story is finished. Quite obviously a lot of people happens to disagree with that statement. I for one have not had the feeling off -this is it-.

But they did finish the first. People seem to get really stuck up on "and the Warden did other things" epilogue in DA:A, but that's your standard classic RPG ending, where the writers avoid telling you what your character does for fear of overwriting the way you imagine the end to your adventure.

I am sorry, but I have played more RPG's than I remember. CRPG's, PnP RPG's, Live action RPG's. live steel action RPG's. I don't see anything classic about what you say. ToB, as mentioned earlier, THAT had a classic ending. From here than can be no more. Game over. After NWN Horde's of the Underdark, there was no doubt either. So - as I said before - you can claim it had an ending all you want; there's quite a few people disagreeing with you.

[In Exile]

TMZuk wrote...
Which is why they should have made a final chapter to the story, like Throne of Bhaal, and include in that the choices the warden made during the game. E.G. The warden is summoned to Weisshaupt to report and explain, and is there embroiled in a vicious intrigue, leading to a conclusion where the Warden must make one final fateful descision. Just on top of my head, many other scenarios could be imagined.

That's the Awakening problem all over again. My characters would tell the Wardens to go **** themselves. Short of bringing an army to take me in (which I would certainly kill without compulsion), my characters aren't getting to Weisshaupt.

The more you try to develop one very variable character the more you overwrite player choice.

There are plenty of things Bioware could have done with a game that was such a succes, but instead they choose to more or less drop the ball, and pick up a new one, alienating a lot of players in the process. Perhaps it will pay of for Bioware, only how well DA2 sells can determine that, but no matter what, we are more than a few fans of the first game who are left with a bad taste in the mouth.

Not really. Bioware won me over by not continuing with the Warden, since DA:A was already pushing it for me in terms of wanting future DA media after how they desecrated my character as some kind of Warden toady.

[In Exile]

TMZuk wrote..
I am sorry, but I have played more RPG's than I remember. CRPG's, PnP RPG's, Live action RPG's. live steel action RPG's. I don't see anything classic about what you say. ToB, as mentioned earlier, THAT had a classic ending. From here than can be no more. Game over. After NWN Horde's of the Underdark, there was no doubt either. So - as I said before - you can claim it had an ending all you want; there's quite a few people disagreeing with you.

I'm talking about computer RPGs. NWN had very broad "go on more adventures epilogues". That includes the HoTU epilogues, short of the "Rule Cania" one. 

The "Warden's story isn't over" is a fancy way of saying "go use your imagination for how your story ends" which is what all of the NWN epilogues did.

[TMZuk]

In Exile wrote...

Not really. Bioware won me over by not continuing with the Warden, since DA:A was already pushing it for me in terms of wanting future DA media after how they desecrated my character as some kind of Warden toady.

I'll agree with you that DA:A was a pile of ****, which makes the "When have Bioware ever let you down?"-crowd so much more amusing.

First and foremost because it was a rushed product, poorly executed, with a poor story, with more plot-holes than a Swiss cheese.

Using that as a guideline is hardly going to convince me to buy DA2. And backing down on their promise to deliever two years of support and  DLC is not helping them either.

[upsettingshorts]

In Exile is talking about the storyline presented in DA:A, not the execution of it and the gameplay features therein.

In DA:A, even if it was a masterfully polished and well-realized expansion, would still have your Warden happily serving the order by running their castle for them.

[In Exile]

TMZuk wrote...

I'll agree with you that DA:A was a pile of ****, which makes the "When have Bioware ever let you down?"-crowd so much more amusing.

First and foremost because it was a rushed product, poorly executed, with a poor story, with more plot-holes than a Swiss cheese. 

I'll agree with you that DA:A was bad gameplay wise, but like Shorts said, my original point was that because it involved the Warden as a Grey Warden, they made decisions about my character for me. They told me I'd leave being king/being paragon/making sweet love to Leliana to become leader of the Wardens in Aramanthine. But my characters would never do this. Stopping the Blight =! the I<3 Wardens! angle DA:O kept trying to push onto us.

Using that as a guideline is hardly going to convince me to buy DA2. And backing down on their promise to deliever two years of support and  DLC is not helping them either.

They said the same with ME1, it was pretty bad on the DLC front, but they've more than made up for it with ME2 with good DLCs like Overlord, and the absolutely brilliant Lair of the Shadow Broker, which at least IMO was probably the best sequence by far in all of ME.

[TMZuk]

If DA:A had been a masterful and polished expansion, it would have been something where the choices you made in DA:O mattered. It wasn't and they did not. Instead it forced a contrived and basicly absurd story upon you.

In Exile wrote...

They said the same with ME1, it was
pretty bad on the DLC front, but they've more than made up for it with
ME2 with good DLCs like Overlord, and the absolutely brilliant Lair of
the Shadow Broker, which at least IMO was probably the best sequence by
far in all of ME.

If you think that Overlord was good, then we really are in total disagreement what good RP is. For me it was a stressy mouseclicking excersise, with a ridiculous hover-craft. Lair of the Shadowbroker was all right, but extremely linear and also very stressy to play.

Modifié par TMZuk, 28 décembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[In Exile]

TMZuk wrote...

If DA:A had been a masterful and polished expansion, it would have been something where the choices you made in DA:O mattered. It wasn't and they did not. Instead it forced a contrived and basicly absurd story upon you.

As long as the story was "lead the Grey Wardens" the game would have sucked for me and meant breaking my PC to play it. I got through it because I wanted to see what precisely it was like with an imported PC, but that was just because I didn't want to lose my loot creating an Orlesian Warden. So far as I'm concerned, my PC's story ended with Origins or (for PCs who Morrigain) at the Mirror without Awakening.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 décembre 2010 - 07:13 .

[In Exile]

TMZuk wrote...
If you think that Overlord was good, then we really are in total disagreement what good RP is. For me it was a stressy mouseclicking excersise, with a ridiculous hover-craft. Lair of the Shadowbroker was all right, but extremely linear and also very stressy to play.

It had solid ambiance, a rather dark storyline, and a particularly interesting concept and execution. You're going to have to accept we have different tastes in games, which is why I think DA2 is going in the right direction with design changes and you don't.

That being said, what does "stressy" mean?

[AlanC9]

TMZuk wrote...

I am sorry, but I have played more RPG's than I remember. CRPG's, PnP RPG's, Live action RPG's. live steel action RPG's. I don't see anything classic about what you say. ToB, as mentioned earlier, THAT had a classic ending. From here than can be no more. Game over. After NWN Horde's of the Underdark, there was no doubt either.

This is nonsense.

In ToB, it's over if you take the Throne. If you don't, your adventures continue. The epilogue specifically says "The adventure draws to a close, but there will be more to come." Companion epilogue texts also state there's more adventuring.

As In Exile mentions, this is also true in HotU.

And the NWN1 OC. And some MotB endings. TES games don't have a defined ending in the first place.

[Selene Moonsong]

Brockololly wrote...

If the GameZone preview is anything to go by it would seem that the Dark Ritual  ending with Alistair on the throne is the "default" choice for those without Origins saves, amongst the other options they outlined.

Quite right, my misquote, the comments remain otherwise, however; in that the Warden's story ended with the blight.

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...
Since the PC agreed to go off with Morrigain, having the PC as her "knight" is totally acceptable. The player already consented to going along with her plan.

Not at all- considering the player has no idea what her plan is.

If her plan is to murder every being in Thedas, then despite going through the Eluvian, some of my Wardens wouldn't be ok with that. Having your Warden go through the Eluvian is a way for that Warden to stay initimately involved in her story, but that doesn't mean that the Warden would simply go along with whatever it is she is doing or not try to further influence her one way or another.

[upsettingshorts]

I think it would be hard to reconcile the expectations of Brockololly and/or others who want to see the Morrigan romance continue with anyone else who may or may not give a damn. Morrigan has left the world more or less - choosing to follow her or not, regardless of your ultimate endorsement of her plans - is a huge turning point plotwise.



It just seems that any meaningful continuation of the Warden's story would either be incredibly generic and unsatisfying or too focused and thus alienating to any player who doesn't care.

[Brockololly]

Depending on whatever her plan involves, if you had some sort of multiple PC approach for that game, like the Starcraft campaigns maybe, if the Wardens are involved at all overall with the big "change" coming that Morrigan hints at, then simply have the Warden or the Orlesian Warden do the interacting in that "chapter" of the game.

The expectations I have only come from what the game allows you to do with respect to Morrigan. They can deal with those choices a million different ways, but I'd guess I'd find it quite anticlimatic if after all the stuff you can have your Warden do to get the Eluvian ending with Morrigan, they simply handwave or cameo him away during whatever the ultimate highpoint is for Morrigan's plans and seeing the ultimate consequences of the DR.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

WidowMaker9394 wrote...

The Wardens fight the Blights.

The Blights are not the only things in the Dragon Age universe.

And judging from teh Blights so far, our Warden will probably not be alive by the next blight to fight it, and if he/she is, he/she would be far to old to fight it.

I think I read on the wiki for the various epilogue slides that a blight is rumored to be happening in the Anderfels near Weisshaupt.   This is a possibility while things are happening in the Free Marches with Hawke. 

[AlexXIV]

Ymladdych wrote...

The Warden's story isn't over; it's going to move forward and subsequent installments will reveal that information somehow. Ambient conversations and NPC dialogue are practically guaranteed, but the devs might use more direct/active methods, too. (Like, your new NPC encounters Flemeth again, and she's wearing the Warden's skull as a helmet.) In stories with a US Warden, the Orlesian Warden will probably fill in the blanks for post-Origins content.

I also believe there's a chance that the Warden will come back as a PC, but only if the devs think it's the best arc for the franchise...story-wise and gaming-wise.

I still hope the Warden comes back. I don't see why not, since the 'Hero of Ferelden' is not only a Grey Warden but also a person. And he/she can do anything any other person could do as well. He/she was more or less forced into the ranks of the Grey Wardens as well, and who's to say he/she cannot break free from that group after the Blight? Grey Wardens are supposed to die when they slay the Archdemon and the Warden could break free from that rule. So I don't know why there can't be more.

[Brockololly]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
I think I read on the wiki for the various epilogue slides that a blight is rumored to be happening in the Anderfels near Weisshaupt.   This is a possibility while things are happening in the Free Marches with Hawke. 

Yup- the Orlesian Warden's epilogue has him/her returning to Weisshaupt as there are rumors of another Blight beginning in the Anderfels. Of course, the epilogues also had things like Morrigan insinutaing herself in the Orlesian Court, and generally headed to Orlais, so the epilogues seem to be easily discarded.

[marshalleck]

One full game, an expansion, and several DLCs is plenty of show time for the Warden. Moving on.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
Not at all- considering the player has no idea what her plan is.

Then it doesn't seem plausible for the Warden to feature in at all. Anything else would mean a special game for that Warden alone.

If her plan is to murder every being in Thedas, then despite going through the Eluvian, some of my Wardens wouldn't be ok with that. Having your Warden go through the Eluvian is a way for that Warden to stay initimately involved in her story, but that doesn't mean that the Warden would simply go along with whatever it is she is doing or not try to further influence her one way or another.

The problem with branching paths is that you're either making assumptions about the character (like DA:A did about Wardens being willing to stay in the order and lead it) or you're getting irrelevant follow-up content (like ME2).

Anything else is so resource intensive as to be just not cost justified.

Brockololly wrote...
Depending on whatever her plan
involves, if you had some sort of multiple PC approach for that game,
like the Starcraft campaigns maybe, if the Wardens are involved at all
overall with the big "change" coming that Morrigan hints at, then simply
have the Warden or the Orlesian Warden do the interacting in that
"chapter" of the game. 

You don't need to involve Wardens ( I don't mean the character - I mean the order; since you're introducing many new PCs, they don't need to be Wardens at all) to make a multiple PC game work. Personally, I think multiple PC games are a solid idea and really enjoy them, but that doesn't address the cannon for the Warden.

Yes, a "Mirror" Warden would be with Morrigain. But what about others? More character overwrites like Awakening? What does a Warden who goes off to Antiva and never does Awakening/WH do? What does a ruler of Ferelden do?

Brockololly wrote...
The expectations I have only come from
what the game allows you to do with respect to Morrigan. They can deal
with those choices a million different ways, but I'd guess I'd find it
quite anticlimatic if after all the stuff you can have your Warden do to
get the Eluvian ending with Morrigan, they simply handwave or cameo him
away during whatever the ultimate highpoint is for Morrigan's plans and
seeing the ultimate consequences of the DR.

I appreciate that you are very attached to the Warden as a character and so want that particular protagonist to feature into the story, but I even with the multiple PC idea I don't see how the game could do justice to any other Warden without being built specifically for a Morrigain + DR scenario.

This is the issue in a nutshell, like I said earlier. You can't respect the Morrigain and DR choice without designing a game to revolve around them, and that just forces all other choices into the background.

Modifié par In Exile, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[jesuno]

marshalleck wrote...

One full game, an expansion, and several DLCs is plenty of show time for the Warden. Moving on.

Yep, I agree. Wardens are a pivotal part of Fereldan's story, but I like that someone else has his time in the spotlight.

[PinkysPain]

What does it matter if Morrigan is supposed to be an antagonist? If the PC romanced here she can leave him, be an antagonist and finally conquered by the power of love (no matter how cheesy a premise a good writer can make it into something decent) if not simply an antagonist conquered by the power of hitting stuff hard with sharp metal objects.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

[quote]Brockololly wrote...

[quote]RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Witch Hunt had nothing to do with your Warden... the Warden's story was already over, epilogued,  and left to your imagination.
[/quote]
I'm sorry but as Cassandra might say, thats bull****.

Witch Hunt has everything to do with your Warden- thats why the whole thing varies depending on what Warden you import into it. The experience there with Morrigan is different in terms of interaction and what you're able to do depending on your Warden. Its impossible for any of us to say whether the Warden's story is actually over. Its over with respect to the 5th Blight and killing the Archdemon. But thats as much saying Luke Skywalker's story is over when he blew up the Death Star or that the Bhaalspawn's story was over when it killed Sarevok.
[/quote]

The Warden isn't the Chosen of the Force.  The Warden isn't a god's kid.  The Warden is an extra-ordinary dude or dudette that got called on at a huge moment in history.  That's all.  The story ends, the Warden fades into obscurity, gets buried in the ground, or goes maybe goes off with Morrigan and inches closer to their Calling every day.

I can't see how Witch Hunt was about the Warden... it's clearly about shaping Morrigan's life in the moments before she went through the mirror.  It's a coda to DA2 and DA3.  It sets the stage and gets things primed.  It isn't intended to end anything.



[quote]RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
The choices the Warden made that impact the years called "the  Dragon Age" are retained.  So there's nothing that's being disavowed or  abandoned.  The setting is the main character in the Dragon Age games,  no one person is the defining character.
[/quote]
Again, if they simply write off the Wardens that went through the Eluvian or handwave away the seeming impact of that choice when Morrigan returns, then yes, I would say that would be playing one big GOTCHA! card and disavowing the meaning of that choice as the player was presented it in WH.
[/quote]

I'll totally high five with you in BioWare says "Oh yeah, Morrigan totally forgot about the Warden after a while."  But I doubt they will.  I very much think that what the Warden did with her in DAO and what the Warden does to her at the mirror is going shape her character in (theoretically) DA3.  But the Warden's tale is told... the story of the world is really just begining.  Besides... DAO was all about the Godbaby's backstory, wasn't it?  

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

PinkysPain wrote...

What does it matter if Morrigan is supposed to be an antagonist? If the PC romanced here she can leave him, be an antagonist and finally conquered by the power of love (no matter how cheesy a premise a good writer can make it into something decent) if not simply an antagonist conquered by the power of hitting stuff hard with sharp metal objects.

If you've played the WH dlc and go with her then you become a part of her story regardless if they bring the warden back or not.  It's implied that your part of her story.  I think this is what alot of folks are concerned about it was a cheap shot to leave this cliff hanger, then tell all of us that our warden's story is over.  If our story is over why did we have the option to go with her?   She should have killed the warden right there and maybe she did.  We don't have enough information on the mirror to make this determination and how it will affect DA2. 

[KyleOrdrum]

I hate to be the obvious devil's advocate here, but the warden can never come back. They gave you the option of suicide in DA:O and if the warden returned in any fashion, as Morrigan's knight, the queen of fereldin, or the ruler of amaranthe, no matter what they could do, some fans will be angry because its forcing a cannon on them that their character did not go through. As such, the only way Bioware can possibly keep all the fans relatively happy is to simply leave the warden alone.



I suppose its feasible if enough data is being transfered on import, to replace generic goon #3 with your character's build. This however would be problematic in that they would have to code several generic characters to possibly be the warden, and would have to include massive voice acting possibilities just to cover one line change.



IE if the game references Fereldin, they will already have to have paid several voice actors to possibly refer to the ruler as either Allistair or Anora, and this becomes triply compounded if referring to the warden as morrigan's knight, the warden commander, the prince consort, the queen consort, the king's mistress, a corpse, etc. As such, there is no feasible way to ever do this unless a lot of fans who are competent voice actors offer their services for free.



This does however bring the consideration of the warden returning...not as the warden. Consider the endless possibilities of what Morrigan could be doing, and the possibility of the warden becoming an abomination of some sort in order to save him from the taint. This would allow a uniquely crafted character, alla Gax, which could add a few unique lines of dialogue provided that the imported save had this information. I for one, do not hold high hopes for the warden's return however.