167 réponses à ce sujet

[Alexander1136]

honestly I'm still a little sore about the warden being done thing.. but here's hoping he'll show up again at morrigan's side even if silent stand in eh.

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It is really the case.  In any situation where the player has an option to make a choice, that choice needs to be respected.  The player doesn't have a choice in the fact that Morrigan offers the Dark Ritual, the player - if he plays Witch Hunt - has no choice in the fact that the Warden pursues Morrigan.  But there is a player choice as to whether they follow her through the mirror.  Them's the facts.  

I'm not saying that the Warden follows Morrigan through the Eluvian no matter what. I'll admit to being a Warden/Morrigan fanboy, but I'm not that much of a stupid fanboy:P

I'm saying that its canon that A Warden followed/searched for Morrigan given the events of Witch Hunt. Witch Hunt happens whether you played it or not.

Whether its your Origins Warden that does it or the Orlesian or some other guy, is up to you provided you buy and play the thing- I have no clue how BioWare will handle that if you never play WH in handling the 3 flags there. But presumably they'll pick a default.

In Exile wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
I get where you're coming from, but thats not really the case. Even if you don't play Witch Hunt, BioWare will presumably make a default choice there to fill in the blanks, just as they will for those that didn't play Awakening. So technically, a Warden followed Morrigan no matter what. Just the same as Morrigan  shows up to offer the Dark Ritual no matter if you kicked her out of the party at Lothering.

If Bioware makes a choice that my Warden went after Morrigain, that's no different than Bioware making a choice that your Warden  approves of all of Morrigain's plans, and making you a boss-level NPC  defending her in whatever sequel she appears.

Again, it depends on how they handle WH in the future if you didn't play it. The events there happen no matter what. A Warden went out searching and found her at the Eluvian. Whether that was your Origins Warden or the Orlesian or some new guy is up to you, unless you didn't play WH in which case BioWare will likely adopt some default choice- what that default is, is the question. But those events happened.

In Exile wrote...
To follow Morrigain or not (not through the Eluvian - but to go after her at all) is a rather dramatic player choice like being the Warden Commander in  Awakening. For Bioware to force a particular choice on players is harsh. I can appreciate that you really want them to follow up on this  story with the Warden as a central character, but you do need to  appreciate how your story could actively overwrite mine.

Right- my Wardens would have rather told the First Warden to go **** himself after Origins as they wanted to go straight off looking for Morrigan instead of bothering with Vigil's Keep. They should have given you more RP options to sort of express disatisfaction with being Warden Commander.

But the events of Awakening happen no matter what, just like the events of Witch Hunt happen no matter what. The whole underlying premise you have to buy into is that the one defining feature of all PC 's in Origins is that they are WARDENS. They may not like it, they may hate the Wardens, but for stuff like Awakening or WH, they justify the overall plots as something a WARDEN would do as they're part of the Warden-ly nature. Its part of the character- just like the Bhaalspawn is a Bhaalspawn, you're a Warden by your blood.  It isn't ideal but thats how they wrote the plot. Just like Hawke becomes Champion of Kirkwall no matter what and I'm sure there will be certain "Champion" like things the plot will force on Hawke. Just as you're forced to stop the Blight, being Warden Commander and searching for Morrigan in WH are given significance as Warden-centric things to do.

With searching for Morrigan, just like taking up Vigil's Keep,its grounded in the PC being a Warden-  its the foundation that the First Warden wants you to look for Morrigan as he thinks her and Flemeth were involved in the Blight somehow.

I never played Golems of Amgarrak but that happened regardless too- of course the difference being there aren't any flags there as WH is the only DLC outside of Awakening to have any plot flags.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Re-reading, I think I disagree with both of you.

The Warden - a Warden - does follow Morrigan because Witch Hunt existed and the events of it happened. 

However any situation which presents an active player with a choice must have consequences that respect that choice.

Right- thats all I meant, WH happens no matter what; A Warden looks for her no matter what. The choice comes in whether you stabbed, went with her or let her go and received the gift. How BioWare deals with that is all I'm wondering- whether they'll have the Origins Warden do all that or if they chalk that up to the Orlesian.

Modifié par Brockololly, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[In Exile]

In Exile wrote...
Again, it depends on how they handle WH in the future if you didn't play it. The events there happen no matter what. A Warden went out searching and found her at the Eluvian. Whether that was your Origins Warden or the Orlesian or some new guy is up to you, unless you didn't play WH in which case BioWare will likely adopt some default choice- what that default is, is the question. But those events happened.

A warden isn't an issue. That's just Bioware's direction, if they choose to go that route. That doesn't have any implication for the origin Warden re: the plot for Morrigain.

Whether or not a warden is involved says nothing about the need for future involvement from or for the order. The issue with WH and our Warden is the potential personal involvement.

Right- my Wardens would have rather told the First Warden to go **** himself after Origins as they wanted to go straight off looking for Morrigan instead of bothering with Vigil's Keep. They should have given you more RP options to sort of express disatisfaction with being Warden Commander.

That's irrelevant, honestly. Once the decision to go ahead with DA:A was made, any PC unwilling to do was told to go to hell. That's the route Bioware chose. What I am saying is that were they to choose to overwrite your PC in some way for any involvement with Morrigain would be no different.

But the events of Awakening happen no matter what, just like the events of Witch Hunt happen no matter what. The whole underlying premise you have to buy into is that the one defining feature of all PC 's in Origins is that they are WARDENS. They may not like it, they may hate the Wardens, but for stuff like Awakening or WH, they justify the overall plots as something a WARDEN would do as they're part of the Warden-ly nature.

And in this case, the underlying premise would be as MORRIGAIN's LOVER (why are we using all caps?) that the PC would do MORRIGAIN LOVER-LY things, like following along with her plots.

If you are going to say it's okay for Bioware to demand that we feel a certain way about the Wardens and go along with the Warden plot, you can't turn around and demand for them to cater to a particular vision of what your relationship with Morrigain is. You've already granted that they're justified in determining your motives and feelings toward important relationships in your PC's life.

Its part of the character- just like the Bhaalspawn is a Bhaalspawn, you're a Warden by your blood.  It isn't ideal but thats how they wrote the plot. Just like Hawke becomes Champion of Kirkwall no matter what and I'm sure there will be certain "Champion" like things the plot will force on Hawke. Just as you're forced to stop the Blight, being Warden Commander and searching for Morrigan in WH are given significance as Warden-centric things to do.

And if you go with Morrigain through the mirror, you are forced to be her champion independent of what her plan is. It is the same logic. If you are going to defend the writers in defining your relationship and attitude with the Wardens, them doing the same thing for your relationship with Morrigain is no different.

With searching for Morrigan, just like taking up Vigil's Keep,its grounded in the PC being a Warden-  its the foundation that the First Warden wants you to look for Morrigan as he thinks her and Flemeth were involved in the Blight somehow.

And the mere idea that your character would not tell the first warden to go **** himself is the same kind of overwrite as your PC going along with Morrigain merely because of the romance.

Modifié par In Exile, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:54 .

[Dellingr]

Felfenix wrote...
So glad Shepard is dying in ME3, too.

EH?! source?!

I think that given all the different things that could have happened, it'd be unrealistic for the warden to show up in any big way in a future release

I'm happy imagining my warden continuing to advise the king and queen, hanging out around court, travelling around with Leliana and doing non-worldshaking yet still important stuff (like maybe fighting off minor darkspawn flareups, dealing with crime syndicates in denerim, or something) in the background of future games. My warden's a very powerful awesome character and I don't see him as having been abandoned, but the world's big enough for other really cool stories and I'm very excited to see another one unfold around Hawke

[Master Shiori]

In Exile wrote...

And in this case, the underlying premise would be as MORRIGAIN's LOVER (why are we using all caps?) that the PC would do MORRIGAIN LOVER-LY things, like following along with her plots.

If you are going to say it's okay for Bioware to demand that we feel a certain way about the Wardens and go along with the Warden plot, you can't turn around and demand for them to cater to a particular vision of what your relationship with Morrigain is. You've already granted that they're justified in determining your motives and feelings toward important relationships in your PC's life.

If Bioware does make us play as a Warden again (a rather big if at this point), they would at very least give us the option of choosing whether it's our Warden from Origins or a whole new character. They did it in Awakening and the differences were minimal at best.
Further, the general tone of interaction between Morrigan and any Warden PC would be pretty much the same, with the exception of maybe a few extra lines of dialogue for Wardens who romanced her, just like it was in Origins ans Witch Hunt. Anything more than that and you're asking Bioware to commit too many resources to what is, for all intents and pusposes, an entirely optional relationship.

What's more, it is my belief that in a battle of respecting player choices or telling a good story, a good story will alway win in the eyes of the writers. David Gaider already confirmed that they would be willing to resurrect certain dead characters if they really wanted to and Awakening already demonstrated that they're fine with ignoring choices from post-coronation in favour of telling their story. So while player choices are important and all, I don't believe they're something sacred that Bioware is sworn off from tinkering with forever and ever.

[Master Shiori]

Dellingr wrote...

Felfenix wrote...
So glad Shepard is dying in ME3, too.

EH?! source?!

Entirely a speculation on the Felfenix's part.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 31 décembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Sutamina]

Master Shiori wrote...

Dellingr wrote...

Felfenix wrote...
So glad Shepard is dying in ME3, too.

EH?! source?!

Entirely a speculation on the Dellingr's part.

I did not know Dellingr's question was speculation. I would have thought that Felfenix was doing the speculation.

[Master Shiori]

Sutamina wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Dellingr wrote...

Felfenix wrote...
So glad Shepard is dying in ME3, too.

EH?! source?!

Entirely a speculation on the Dellingr's part.

I did not know Dellingr's question was speculation. I would have thought that Felfenix was doing the speculation.

I stand corrected.

[Kail Ashton]

I'll assume in 6 pages (can't say i want to skim read threw it) no one has done a



"Will our wiley warden return in time to repel the reviled rascals or is this the end of our wonderious warden~! tune in next time, same warden time, same warden channal! *dun-aduna-dun-a-duna WAR~DEN!"



if not, then shame on all of you.

[Theagg]

PinkysPain wrote...

There is something to be said for both styles, but I prefer the epic campaign over the faux history of an imiginary world.

I want my original warden fighting a (demi-)god in the golden city with the world hanging in the balance.

Much how I feel. It's somewhat of a delusion to believe, in a gaming sense that the player can shape an entire world via the proxy of slot in and throw away characters that change in each new release. ( ie, Warden > Hawke > ? ), that Thedas is somehow the primary character you are playing. Some people have bought into that faux notion but worlds have so many variables impacting on them that one person alone cannot shape them. And frankly, current gaming technology cannot run such a varied simulation, in the background on the gaming platforms of choice.

What the writers then offer up to maintain this delusion are bullet points and lines of dialogue where one variable changes ( the name of the ruler of Orzammar for example ) dependant on previous choices but beyond that, no real impact is felt. No true sense that Thedas is evolving differently. The labels might be different but whats in the box is broadly the same. How, for example, would the choice of Alistair on the throne, Bhelen in Orzammar and the politics of that play over into interactions with the governing forces in the Free Marches. Versus any other combination.

Thedas is not a character and is not something you can role play, despite professed pretentions to that being the true aim of the game.

[Theagg]

Gabey5 wrote...

who cares about the freaking warden, he has had his time to shine.

I don't care much about Hawke, thats for sure...

[Ymladdych]

Theagg wrote...
What the writers then offer up to maintain this delusion are bullet points and lines of dialogue where one variable changes ( the name of the ruler of Orzammar for example ) dependant on previous choices but beyond that, no real impact is felt. No true sense that Thedas is evolving differently. The labels might be different but whats in the box is broadly the same. How, for example, would the choice of Alistair on the throne, Bhelen in Orzammar and the politics of that play over into interactions with the governing forces in the Free Marches. Versus any other combination.

I'll agree that broad variations in the world can't be sustained indefinitely, since the number of permutations will grow exponentially as more choices are provided.  It'll probably be possible down the road as AI/ANN technology becomes more sophisticated, but yeah, we won't see it for a while.

But that doesn't mean certain choices can't have a significant impact within a shorter chunk of the timeline...something spanning 1 or 2, (maybe 3) installments.  As long as the ultimate consequences boil back down to 1 or 2 states that can be relegated to background ambience, it's doable. 

An example I gave in another thread was:  let's say that DA3 covers a battle for power between Flemeth and Morrigan.  Morrigan having OGB and the Warden helps her out, while Flemeth having the Architect and his armies helps her out.  Then the next installment could be 100 years down the road, when the aftermath of DA3 would affect the environment based on one of two possibilities: Flemeth won or Morrigan won.  Both versions of the world would have the same basic qualities, with specifics being relegated to lore and dialogue.  Although Morrigan and Flemeth's significance would be diminished for future games with this scenario, I doubt players who feel strongly about that plot would see the journey and final outcome as irrelevent.

Would something like this be hard to execute?  Freak yeah. That doesn't mean it's impossible or that Bioware isn't looking to do something like this.  If anything, the difficulty (and novelty) might be the exact reason Bioware tries to do it.  I personally get a strong sense of ambition from them...like they want to help move gaming as a whole forward and be recognized for doing so.  Anyway...just my thoughts on it.

[YoziMaiden]

PinkysPain wrote...

Flemeth? No.

DA2 might push players into more of a straightjacket ... but Flemeth would be a step too far even for the new developers ... few gamers would want to identify with a granny.

I'd love a game where Flemeth was the main character personally,  though I can see why some people might not want to  play an old woman...  even if she's a bad ass.

[upsettingshorts]

Theagg wrote...

I don't care much about Hawke, thats for sure...

Did you care about the Warden before you played DAO, and if so, could you explain why?

[Theagg]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Theagg wrote...

I don't care much about Hawke, thats for sure...

Did you care about the Warden before you played DAO, and if so, could you explain why?

Technically, no I didn't care but that was simply a default starter position as the Warden was an empty vessel waiting to be filled.

The reasons for not caring about Hawke are different ( not least because the vessel is already part filled with a condensed beverage that doesn't appeal ) and have addressed those reasons in detail in numerous prior posts. So won't go over those again here.

But suffice to say its the level of Hawke hype in particular from all involved in making and pushing the game, in a way that there never was any Warden hype that leaves me feeling cold.

[YoziMaiden]

How could you Hype a character that was an absolutely blank slate? Just saying.

[Theagg]

YoziMaiden wrote...

How could you Hype a character that was an absolutely blank slate? Just saying.

Exactly..

[upsettingshorts]

Theagg wrote...

Technically, no I didn't care but that was simply a default starter position as the Warden was an empty vessel waiting to be filled.

The reasons for not caring about Hawke are different ( not least because the vessel is already part filled with a condensed beverage that doesn't appeal ) and have addressed those reasons in detail in numerous prior posts. So won't go over those again here.

The Warden wasn't an empty vessel waiting to be filled though, at least not in any way different than Hawke is.  The Warden was six partially filled vessels you could choose from. 

The Warden ended the Blight in the same way Hawke will become champion - it just seems to me all that's different is DA2 has a single origin.

YoziMaiden wrote...

How could you Hype a character that was an absolutely blank slate? Just saying.

The Warden wasn't a blank slate.  The protagonist of say, Oblivion or Fallout New Vegas is a blank slate.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 31 décembre 2010 - 09:54 .

[Victia]

I agree with you Zombiegeisha, as a female warden I had no closure for her. If I had been given a slide saying she returned to alistair, resumed her duties as queen, lived happily and went for her calling or something explanatory at the end. Then I would be happy to never hear or see from her again, but as we had no conclusion I feel I want more or I have been robbed of the end of the story!

[Theagg]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Theagg wrote...

Technically, no I didn't care but that was simply a default starter position as the Warden was an empty vessel waiting to be filled.

The reasons for not caring about Hawke are different ( not least because the vessel is already part filled with a condensed beverage that doesn't appeal ) and have addressed those reasons in detail in numerous prior posts. So won't go over those again here.

The Warden wasn't an empty vessel waiting to be filled though, at least not in any way different than Hawke is.  The Warden was six partially filled vessels you could choose from. 

The Warden ended the Blight in the same way Hawke will become champion - it just seems to me all that's different is DA2 has a single origin.

YoziMaiden wrote...

How could you Hype a character that was an absolutely blank slate? Just saying.

The Warden wasn't a blank slate.  The protagonist of say, Oblivion or Fallout New Vegas is a blank slate.

Six is greater than one, for starters. But my problems with Hawke go beyond that, as I alluded to. ( and in part, they are borne out of how the leads at Bioware sold out on the original ideas they expressed that motivated the feel and design for Origins in favour of the more commercialised changes in DA2. ) And again I will say it, the level of Hawke hype just doesn' t impress me.

[Night Prowler76]

After playing through the game and all of its content about 3 times, it seems to me that the Morrigan/Warden part of the story was the most compelling, and this is just solely my own opinion, I picked up the ultimate edition about a month ago because a few of my friends said it was worth it.

Now, I can see where some people think the Warden/Morrigan plot line should end etc, but honestly, the Morrigan storyline is what made the game for me, and them releasing witch hunt as the last DLC shows that Morrigan is a huge part of the story, and i was actually shocked to see that DA2 will not pick up where this left off, now Im not disappointed that DA2 is based on a different chracter from the same time period, but I am hoping deep down that the 3rd installment will be centred around the Morrigan/Warden story, I understand why people dont want it to happen, but I think Bioware is kind of making a bit of a mistake by changing the premise of the game so quickly, i prefer to make my own hero:>

[Ymladdych]

Victia wrote...
I agree with you Zombiegeisha, as a female warden I had no closure for her. If I had been given a slide saying she returned to alistair, resumed her duties as queen, lived happily and went for her calling or something explanatory at the end. Then I would be happy to never hear or see from her again, but as we had no conclusion I feel I want more or I have been robbed of the end of the story!

It's true that we're not playing the Warden in DA2, but fears that Bioware won't reveal the fate of that character are pure speculation at this point.  Even if we never play the Warden again, I don't see why people assume the devs would neglect to give us dialogue or some visual indication of what ultimately happened to him/her.  That sort of thing goes against some pretty basic conventions of good storytelling, and I think the evidence points to them being great storytellers, so...my suggestion is to wait and see what they do before you feel disappointed about it.

[AlanC9]

Theagg wrote...
. ( and in part, they are borne out of how the leads at Bioware sold out on the original ideas they expressed that motivated the feel and design for Origins in favour of the more commercialised changes in DA2.

Maybe it's because I didn't follow DAO too closely prerelease, but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. Can you explain?

[marshalleck]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

The Warden cannot be finished! He/She would at least have a major impact in Fereldan history. I hope BioWare implements this in DA2. I know they said you can import decisions but they make is sound has if they weren't important ones to me.

The Warden practically changed the land. Even though it's just Ferelden they should have a greater impact on Thedas.

But Ferelden itself is a very minor nation in Thedas, without much influence beyond its own borders. Almost everyone you meet in DAO who is not a native Fereldan comments on how backward and undeveloped Ferelden is compared to everywhere else. Essentially, Ferelden is still stuck in the dark ages while the rest of the world is enjoying the renaissance. Quite literally, the only history of Ferelden worth noting is that its people eventually (after many years) kicked out the Orlesians and there was a minor Blight that ended almost as soon as it began. If you look at the other Blights in history, Ferelden's really was the least destructive and most brief of all of them. The first Blight lasted two centuries.