120 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

ErichHartmann wrote...

I notice enough differences between the screenshots to feeling good about owning a DX11 graphics card. Don't upgrade if you don't care.

Which one do you have?

Edit: And I have to say, it cracks me up this thread got turned into a platform war in under three posts. That has to be a record.

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:36 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Direct X 11 CAN be much much better, very few games take advantage of all the capabilities. Its not really direct x's problem its just the willingness to program the game to use the benefits...

Still shots almost never do it justice either. Take it from me, I am a PC gamer and a graphics junkie, I always have a top notch pc with top tier video cards. I notice the differences very much.

DA2 is not a very graphic intensive game, so its DX11 tag will be mostly a gimmic im sure, as compared to games like say Metro 2033 or Crysis 2 and such...

Trust, this is not a flame but DX11 is awesome.. its the GAMES that either properly use it or not...

[Nighteye2]

Atakuma wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...
If you want general examples of the difference, this is better.

But I'm not looking for a general comparison, I want to know about DA2.

That is a tech demo, so it isn't a good axample of what to expect.

My point with the screenshot was that you shouldn't expect anything significant.

It's a good example of what's possible. Whether or not we can expect that is up to Bioware. Your screenshot only shows that another developer failed to use DX11's potential.

[Atakuma]

Nighteye2 wrote...

It's a good example of what's possible. Whether or not we can expect that is up to Bioware. Your screenshot only shows that another developer failed to use DX11's potential.

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist.

[TheMadCat]

Atakuma wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

If you want general examples of the difference, this is better.

But I'm not looking for a general comparison, I want to know about DA2.

That is a tech demo, so it isn't a good axample of what to expect.

My point with the screenshot was that you shouldn't expect anything significant.

To be fair your shot wasn't exactly ideal either. I mean a little screen of a very small area isn't going to show off where DX11 made it's strides over it's predecessors. You're going to see a much greater effect in the environments and lighting/shadows if developers actually choose to fully utilize it, which would be what the tech demo showed. Even without full utilization though there is a noticeable difference between 11 and 10, and a massive difference between 9. Lord of the Rings online is a good vehicle for showing the contrasts of the three.

[Atakuma]

I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Modifié par Atakuma, 29 décembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[AtreiyaN7]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...

Really guys stop bashing the OP, some features of DX11 if implemented would make a noticeable difference over DX9 and DX10 especially the former, consider taking advantage of tessellation, the environment would just look way better than it already is, think of other features as well... Multithreaded rendering, Improved Texture Compression, Compression of High Dynamic Range Image Sources and Shader Model 5.0, all these combined can make a huge difference....

So to sum it all up, yeah console versions would look mundane compared to DA2 using the above features of DX11.

Its in the requirments, I don't see why the usual suspects are bashing the OP either. Personally if they were really playing to each plafform's strengths the PC version SHOJLD by all means have DX11 feature support, console users be damned.

I like my graphics maxed out, and both my video cards are DX11 capable. However, things like tessellation will still slow framerates down unless you have the really high-end nVidia/ATI cards. Of course, it's been a few months since the last article I read on the subject, so if any of the newer cards can provide acceptable framerates with all the eyecandy turned on, maybe someone can provide details. The only thing I remember from one article was that framerates on one DX11 card dropped to like 20 fps with the tessellation cranked up really high.

Meh, my dad tossed the magazine or I'd go try to look that up for the details (it was from a few months back though, so maybe the info is out of date anyway). It's nice to have the DX11 frills and all, but I'm not sure the majority of PC users here would want to devote a lot of $$$$ on the video card(s) they need to play games in all their DX11 glory. That being said, if they made DX11 available as an option in DA2, it would certainly be nice. Can't say that I really expect to actually see it, but something like Crysis 2 would be a different story, heh.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 29 décembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Yenkaz]

The problem is largely unrelated to graphics, if anything they have kept requirements largely static for some time and provided a way for many to get new games without being able to afford a new PC.

The consoles also have an advantage which is also an important part in limiting the DX version: Hardware unity:
Every new cycle of consoles mean that all the hardware / graphics technology is updated at once, without having to worry about a constant release of new hardware.

With PC gaming, you are not going to see DX11 deployment at large before:

1: Win XP dies out.
2: All the "Old" DX 9/10 get phased out (DX10 is partially backwards compatible though).

Modifié par Yenkaz, 29 décembre 2010 - 03:09 .

[slimgrin]

Yenkaz wrote...

The problem is largely unrelated to graphics, if anything they have kept requirements largely static for some time and provided a way for many to get new games without being able to afford a new PC.

The consoles also have an advantage which is also an important part in limiting the DX version: Hardware unity:
Every new cycle of consoles mean that all the hardware / graphics technology is updated at once, without having to worry about a constant release of new hardware.

With PC gaming, you are not going to see DX11 deployment at large before:

1: Win XP dies out.
2: All the "Old" DX 9/10 get phased out (DX10 is partially backwards compatible though).

And yet here it is in DA2 and other new releases. 

[PsychoBlonde]

uuuhcantthinkofaname wrote...

I read the title as the DX being a smiley and came in thinking there was 11 new screenshots.

Sigh, I need to sleep.

That would be an interesting smiley.  How would you interpret that?  Cyclops trying not to barf?

[Nighteye2]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
I like my graphics maxed out, and both my video cards are DX11 capable. However, things like tessellation will still slow framerates down unless you have the really high-end nVidia/ATI cards. Of course, it's been a few months since the last article I read on the subject, so if any of the newer cards can provide acceptable framerates with all the eyecandy turned on, maybe someone can provide details. The only thing I remember from one article was that framerates on one DX11 card dropped to like 20 fps with the tessellation cranked up really high.

Cranked up really high, yes. But with moderate tesselation there wasn't much of a slowdown, and still a very good effect.

[D34dw4lk3r]

If you want to see how DX11 game should look, go to witcher2.com

From my point of view, it's a first PC game which takes full advatage of DX11 capabilities.

[slimgrin]

D34dw4lk3r wrote...

If you want to see how DX11 game should look, go to witcher2.com
From my point of view, it's a first PC game which takes full advatage of DX11 capabilities.

I wasn't aware it was utilizing DX11. When did they announce this?

[Maria Caliban]

Atakuma wrote...


I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Ehhh, you stated an opinion, and it's one I tend to agree with.

If there's a dramatic graphical difference between the PC and the console version, that's great, but I don't expect it.

[ErichHartmann]

slimgrin wrote...

D34dw4lk3r wrote...

If you want to see how DX11 game should look, go to witcher2.com
From my point of view, it's a first PC game which takes full advatage of DX11 capabilities.

I wasn't aware it was utilizing DX11. When did they announce this?

They haven't.  CD Projekt has said they may use some DX11 features but the majority of the game is based on DX9.  Not that it matters.  Already the best looking RPG to come out in a long time. 

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 29 décembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[Sir JK]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the game engine have to be replaced to fully utilise DX 11. Even if we completely leave consoles out of the discussion, isn't the engine to old (it is 4-5 years old after all) to use the full advantages of the new generation graphics card. So in order to be able to use it they'd have to rebuild the entire game from ground up?



So even if they were willing to allow vast differences between console and PC, would it be worth making an entire new engine that the vast majority of PC users won't be able to fully utilise for years be worth it?

[ViSeiRa]

Sir JK wrote...

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the game engine have to be replaced to fully utilise DX 11. Even if we completely leave consoles out of the discussion, isn't the engine to old (it is 4-5 years old after all) to use the full advantages of the new generation graphics card. So in order to be able to use it they'd have to rebuild the entire game from ground up?

So even if they were willing to allow vast differences between console and PC, would it be worth making an entire new engine that the vast majority of PC users won't be able to fully utilise for years be worth it?

Not at all, no gaming enging is built around a specific API in particular, not unless it's PC exclusive or X360 exclusive, if the engine is X360 exclusive then you can build your engine to better use XNA, if it's PC exclusive you might build it around using DirectX but normally most engines are built not to be hardware dependant, also The Direct3D 11 runtime introduces Direct3D 9, 10, and 10.1 compatibility modes which allow use of only the hardware features defined in the specified version of Direct3D, can't speak about PS3 because I haven't used any tools to program for it.

Buttom line is, if they wanted to they can make the PC version use a lot of features from DirectX11, think of it as a book library, you pick a book (in this case the book is DX11) and start adding chapters from this book to your own book (chapters in this case are features) only you're not actually copying a feature, you're using its interface to apply to your own ideas... not the best example but at least people with little programming experience can understand it, of course it all depends on how much time and budget they have, all in all I don't think we'll see any game that utilizes the full potential for DX11 anytime soon

As an example though, Assassins Creed 2 provided 2 different executable files, one for DX10 and another for DX9, it's just the matter of changing the libraries,adjusting/removing the client code accordingly, linking the different object code and compiling to get a version of the executable that works with DX10 and another that works with DX9.

Ah done, sorry guys for the long read or the technical terms, not intentional but it cannot be explained any other way.

Modifié par ViSeirA, 29 décembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...


I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Ehhh, you stated an opinion, and it's one I tend to agree with.

If there's a dramatic graphical difference between the PC and the console version, that's great, but I don't expect it.

Yet you subscribe to the "we are building each version to its particular platform's strengths" line go fig.

[The Masked Rog]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...


I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Ehhh, you stated an opinion, and it's one I tend to agree with.

If there's a dramatic graphical difference between the PC and the console version, that's great, but I don't expect it.

Yet you subscribe to the "we are building each version to its particular platform's strengths" line go fig.

And to make a game play to PC's strengths you absolutely have to include DX11. A game obviously can't be properly optimized for PC without it. 

[TheMadCat]

The Masked Rog wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...


I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Ehhh, you stated an opinion, and it's one I tend to agree with.

If there's a dramatic graphical difference between the PC and the console version, that's great, but I don't expect it.

Yet you subscribe to the "we are building each version to its particular platform's strengths" line go fig.

And to make a game play to PC's strengths you absolutely have to include DX11. A game obviously can't be properly optimized for PC without it. 

You'd don't consider superior graphics rendering as a strength of the PC over the consoles?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Jonp382]

TheMadCat wrote...

You'd don't consider superior graphics rendering as a strength of the PC over the consoles?

It certainly is. But so are mods, the user interface, etc.

[ViSeiRa]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...


I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Ehhh, you stated an opinion, and it's one I tend to agree with.

If there's a dramatic graphical difference between the PC and the console version, that's great, but I don't expect it.

Yet you subscribe to the "we are building each version to its particular platform's strengths" line go fig.

I have to disagree with you on this one Sarah, 50% of Windows PCs are still running Win XP which just supports DX9, myself included, I won't stop using it till Microsoft stops supporting it and/or hardware vendros stop making drivers for it so it's entirely understandable why they wouldn't waste much resources implementing DirectX11 for 25% of the people who use Win7 and most of them won't be able to afford DX11 video cards anyway.

[The Masked Rog]

TheMadCat wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...


I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Ehhh, you stated an opinion, and it's one I tend to agree with.

If there's a dramatic graphical difference between the PC and the console version, that's great, but I don't expect it.

Yet you subscribe to the "we are building each version to its particular platform's strengths" line go fig.

And to make a game play to PC's strengths you absolutely have to include DX11. A game obviously can't be properly optimized for PC without it. 

You'd don't consider superior graphics rendering as a strength of the PC over the consoles?

No, not really. At least not for a game like Dragon Age where the graphics will always be on the crappy side (which i support). DirectX 9 graphics are more than sufficient and as has beel already stated, a large percentage of PC users can't run DirectX11. Why bother including something only the very highest end will ever benefit from. Take your time improving the UI, the control scheme and performance optimizations for PC instead. That's playing to PC strength not including some super high end graphic stuff. Like if graphics mattered, everything from DX9 looks more than fine, for me you could stop improving graphics already.

[TheMadCat]

Jonp382 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

You'd don't consider superior graphics rendering as a strength of the PC over the consoles?

It certainly is. But so are mods, the user interface, etc.

You can technically mod console games, though Sony and Microsoft don't allow it. Interface and control scheme is completely subjective.  When you talk about strengths of the PC over consoles graphics and performance are the two that really stick out as undeniable facts due to their ability to use advanced hardware at a much early stage. I'd figure if someone was going to play to the platforms strength, graphics, particually the lighting and shadows, is where you'd want to start.

No, not really. At least not for a game like Dragon Age where the
graphics will always be on the crappy side (which i support). DirectX 9
graphics are more than sufficient and as has beel already stated, a
large percentage of PC users can't run DirectX11. Why bother including
something only the very highest end will ever benefit from. Take your
time improving the UI, the control scheme and performance optimizations
for PC instead. That's playing to PC strength not including some super
high end graphic stuff. Like if graphics mattered, everything from DX9
looks more than fine, for me you could stop improving graphics already.

But DX11 isn't necessarily "super high end graphic stuff" as high poly models and high res textures are. It just enhances certain areas of the visual scape which is why you see quite a few PC games coming equipped with DX9, 10, and 11 versions these days.

And I don't understand how you can't see the ability to render superior graphics as a strength period whether you feel it should be in the game or not.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:24 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

The Masked Rog wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Atakuma wrote...


I realize I completely botched any point I was trying to make. I came off as a contrarian ass and I apologize.

Ehhh, you stated an opinion, and it's one I tend to agree with.

If there's a dramatic graphical difference between the PC and the console version, that's great, but I don't expect it.

Yet you subscribe to the "we are building each version to its particular platform's strengths" line go fig.

And to make a game play to PC's strengths you absolutely have to include DX11. A game obviously can't be properly optimized for PC without it. 

Atta boy put words in my mouth. Fact, the consoles are limited to direct x 9 and 512 megs of ram. High res textures prolly and advanced feature sets (like DX11 for example) aren't going to work well if at all on the 360 and PS3.

That being said, there's no reason why the PC version can't support said features if they truly want to cater to each platform and put out the best game they can.