195 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Yrkoon wrote...

Yes, perhaps someone else  can answer the very simple question that you've been dodging  for a whole page now:

Since DA is not an MMO, why does anyone discussing Tanks in DA need to know anything about what a tank is in an MMO?

You don't need to, and I'm not sure why you're using that term, but it's certainly helpful to talk about a system using terms from a practically identical one.

[tonnactus]

Yrkoon wrote...

 A talent.    One.   Riposte.   Though I don't see  why anyone focussed on DPS would bother to even mention it.

And riposte make a check against cunning,making it nearly useless for warriors anyway.

[soteria]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

soteria wrote...

Not my experience.  Usually the tank is the leader of the group--the one who determines the pace, which enemies to kill first and which to crowd control, and which strategy to use on a fight.

You're describing a tank who is also acting as the puller, but that's not a necessary group design.

Of course.  And even in WoW, different situations call for different tactics--contrary to what is often claimed.  My point was just that a tank is expected to be a lot more than just a meatshield.  Not all of those roles translate to a single-player game.

Yrkoon wrote...
No?   Then  why do we need to know squat about how things operate in MMOs?
There's a huge difference between the role of a tank in an MMO vs. the role of a tank in an RPG.

As Ziggeh said, if we're going to use the vocabulary from an MMO, using the terms the same way is necessary for clear communication.  Why use the word if you choose to ascribe a different meaning to it?  You've suggested better terms yourself.

[AlanC9]

Haven't we recently had a couple of threads self-destruct over people trying to use their own vocabulary?

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 janvier 2011 - 04:05 .

[Maria Caliban]

I've done tanking, DPS, and healing in WoW and there are times when each of those jobs is mindless.

I mean, I played a Retridin. After setting up a macro so I attack the same mob as the tank, I could run through a dungeon using nothing but my 1-4 keys. No stress. No deep thinking. Easiest experience in WoW I ever had. I've also played a healing druid. 80% of some dungeons was 5-1 spam healing. Much more stressful, but still very simple.

I guess from this we can say that there's no intelligence or tactics necessary in being a tank, DPS, or healer?

I think it much more likely that these things vary wildly depending on your goals, class, build, what the situation is, and the game you're playing. There are games were being a tank is very hard.

In WoW, a great deal of difficulty is dependent on your equipment and the skill of the other players. I imagine there would be far fewer party-wipes if people didn't have DPS meters, or at least couldn't post them during a dungeon. As a healer, I noticed that whenever one was posted, I inevitably would need watch the dude at the number 2 spot because he'd try to get ahead and end up grabbing aggro.

DA:O made most of the tanking abilities passive. Building and equipping a good tank for Normal level play was not hard. I spent more time fiddling with my mages and rogues as they had a number of active abilities and were positioning.

Is this a good thing? I actually think it is. For a beginning player or one who isn't into combat, tank-n-spank is a sound tactic. Knowing that you can toss one character into the fire and then concentrate on others is fine.

For ones who don't find it realistic or satisfying, there are other builds, other tactics.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 janvier 2011 - 04:41 .

[soteria]

Maria wrote...

I've done tanking, DPS, and healing in WoW and there are times when each of those jobs is mindless.

True enough, but to be fair, by design the classes were supposed to be easy to play and hard to master. I'm sure you're well aware that skilled players would outdamage players with better gear. The difficulty--such as it was--usually came from environmental, fight-specific factors. Also, I've noticed that the people who say it was mindless usually weren't group or raid leaders.

Is this a good thing? I actually think it is. For a beginning player or one who isn't into combat, tank-n-spank is a sound tactic. Knowing that you can toss one character into the fire and then concentrate on others is fine.

To a certain extent, sure. I think it's a little too sound in DA:O, though. I'm curious to know what other tools warriors will have other than Taunt.

[Maria Caliban]

soteria wrote...

Maria wrote...
I've done tanking, DPS, and healing in WoW and there are times when each of those jobs is mindless.

True enough, but to be fair, by design the classes were supposed to be easy to play and hard to master. I'm sure you're well aware that skilled players would outdamage players with better gear. The difficulty--such as it was--usually came from environmental, fight-specific factors. Also, I've noticed that the people who say it was mindless usually weren't group or raid leaders.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me.

That said, yes. Being a group leader is always difficult, no matter your class or role. And the difficulty of any role is situation and player specific.

soteria wrote...

To a certain extent, sure. I think it's a little too sound in DA:O, though. I'm curious to know what other tools warriors will have other than Taunt.

We know they have charge and a sort of AOE debuff.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 janvier 2011 - 05:28 .

[soteria]

Agreeing with a caveat.

[Yrkoon]

soteria wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
No?   Then  why do we need to know squat about how things operate in MMOs?
There's a huge difference between the role of a tank in an MMO vs. the role of a tank in an RPG.

As Ziggeh said, if we're going to use the vocabulary from an MMO, using the terms the same way is necessary for clear communication.  Why use the word if you choose to ascribe a different meaning to it?  You've suggested better terms yourself.

  Except that "tanks" and "tanking"  as gaming terms predate WoW  and other big MMOs  by  years and years.    Even here on the Bioware boards we were discussing how to build a tank for BG1, Bg2  and NWN1 way back at the turn of the century.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 01 janvier 2011 - 06:54 .

[AlanC9]

Were we? And anyway.... so what? DA's borrowing MMO mechanics. Players are borrowing MMO terms to talk about those borrowed MMO mechanics. Why is this a problem?

[Dhiro]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I wonder to what degree non-Warriors can serve as effective tanks.

I'm almost sure someone in this forum said that Leliana could be a good tank.

And she could.  But that was DAO.

Can a Rogue be an effective tank in DA2?

Good point. You can't even change her (Isabela's) armor and I suppose that if we have runes that give the character more defense, the good ones won't be very cheap.

[DarthCaine]

Tanks will be Airplanes in DA2

[Graunt]

Aradace wrote...

Seems like Ninja has never played an MMO in his life. Otherwise he'd know that's ALL a "tank" does in a group. A tank's "typical" role in a group usually goes as follows: Taunt, get skull bashed while shielding allies from damage, taunt more if the mob is going after another party member, get healed by the healer, taunt some more, take more skull bashing, mob dies.....Lather, rinse, repeat as needed in future battles lol.

Warriors in EQ did not do the same kind of damage of what a Ranger or Rogue, or pretty much any of the "real DPS" classes, but they did way more damage compared to how Warriors in "tank mode" in WoW were treated that's for sure.  Then again, in EQ there really wasn't any such thing as a "DPS" or "Tank" Warrior.  You simply were a Warrior and your main role was to tank, but your damage wasn't cut down to compensate for that, considering much of your actual threat was based off of damage, not just taunt.

Not my experience.  Usually the tank is the leader of the group--the one
who determines the pace, which enemies to kill first and which to crowd
control, and which strategy to use on a fight.  In small groups, the
tank probably also needs to be on the ball dishing out spell interrupts
and watching the party's position, too.  It is true that the tank is not
expected to put up big damage numbers, though.

You don't have to be a tank to lead a group or raid at all, but it's commonplace to see people who enjoy playing a tanking class taking charge of things.  It just fits the mentality of those who like the tanking playstyle and managing the environment.  It's also a rather cliche expectation though that "the tank is the leader" even if there's someone else who's more appropriate or better at it.

The primary reason MMORPG tanking is mostly irrelevant to this discussion is because nothing in DA hits hard enough to warrant a "real" tank.  The reason you need them in an MMORPG is simply because of the damage output, especially on bosses.  Boss encounters also required anywhere between 2 - 8 healers.  That simply can't work within a game like DA with such small parties.  If you made the tanks that much of a necessity, that means bosses would be able to one or two-shot any non tank.  If the tanks are built to last against bosses that hit that hard, then that means they would practically be invincible against pretty much all non bosses, even in swarms.  

I think tanking "makes things easier" for casual playing, even if it slows things down in DA, and it will probably work out similarly in DA2.  Honestly I really like the idea of a tank in these kinds of games.  The problem is all in the execution though.

Modifié par Graunt, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:08 .

[State_Of_Danile]

Aradace wrote...

Seems like Ninja has never played an MMO in his life. Otherwise he'd know that's ALL a "tank" does in a group. A tank's "typical" role in a group usually goes as follows: Taunt, get skull bashed while shielding allies from damage, taunt more if the mob is going after another party member, get healed by the healer, taunt some more, take more skull bashing, mob dies.....Lather, rinse, repeat as needed in future battles lol.

i'll be honest the only MMO i have actually played extensivley is WoW while touching on others. And For the 4 or 5 years I played i tanked( with the occasioanl offspec or alt to liven things up). yeah i get it, we're like the batmen of the rpg world. We take it because we can (im referencing dark knight if anyone missed that...). However, if we're REALLY only supposed to taunt i get hit and keep aggro, why would tanks have offensive abilities in the first place? why not just give them only defensive and aggro abilities?

and tanks arent neccesarily just their to get bashed in. After i stopped playing WoW my friends would always complain about how ridiculous tanks were in pvp and how there were tanks that were outdamaging dps classes.

I know the tank isnt there to do damage, but it would be nice if he could do more than just get smacked around while he yells "yo mamma" jokes at a 10 foot tall ogre. Not to mention the reason i initially asked the "can tanks be more than tanks question" wasn't pointed at tanking in genreal, but SnS warriors in general because i was curious if i could make a decent SnS dps warrior character or if i would be forced into using gigantic 2handers to do respectable damage

[upsettingshorts]

Tanking is way more complicated than that in Conan... especially as a Dark Templar.

*hugs DT*

I hope - if the fights call for them - the tanking in TOR isn't just mashing Taunt.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 janvier 2011 - 12:05 .

[Marixus99.9]

There is nothing complicated about tanks from any game. Doesn't matter how many skills, effects, items, etc you put on the game. In the end all you're doing is just trying to get as much of the enemy's dps focused on your tank, while you reduce the incoming dps as much as possible and increase the limit of how much you can take...



Pick one:



A. Highly specialized party that focus only on their strengths. Requiring *tanks* to draw attention from the less sturdy members of the party.



B. Balanced party where everyone covers their weaknesses. Either mediocre performance or they overpower their enemies. Too balanced means everyone appears to be the same thing with different light effects.



C. One class that has high performance with little to no weakness and renders other classes to be useless in comparison. *cough*arcanewarrior*cough*



Without the magical ability to control their enemy's focus ... High defense .. or *tanks* would be useless without enough of them to form a wall or surround the more fragile party members ...



*runs away and goes back to lurking*

[upsettingshorts]

Marixus99.9 wrote...

There is nothing complicated about tanks from any game. Doesn't matter how many skills, effects, items, etc you put on the game. In the end all you're doing is just trying to get as much of the enemy's dps focused on your tank, while you reduce the incoming dps as much as possible and increase the limit of how much you can take...

You could say the same thing about DPS or healing then.  The amount of skills (player and character), effects, items, etc to varies from game to game however.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[Aradace]

Yrkoon wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Seems like Ninja has never played an MMO in his life. Otherwise he'd know that's ALL a "tank" does in a group. A tank's "typical" role in a group usually goes as follows: Taunt, get skull bashed while shielding allies from damage, taunt more if the mob is going after another party member, get healed by the healer, taunt some more, take more skull bashing, mob dies.....Lather, rinse, repeat as needed in future battles lol.

Well, if that's true then the term "tank" is a huge misnomer.  They should be calling them meat-shields.  Or "decoys".  Because that's what you're describing.

A tank should be all of the above  and also have front line offensive capabilities.

"Tank" is the generic term used for the "meat shield" role.  The reason for the "tank" term is because tanks can take tons of punishment lol.  A "Tank" can't do everything itself otherwise you start having "balancing" issues.  Tanks tank...MDPS (Melee DPS) melees...RDPS (Ranged DPS) ranges...Hell, while we're at it lets just allow tanks to heal themself completely too (Items not withstanding).  Oh yea, and get rid of the melee and ranged damage as well since "Tanks" can now do everything on par with other classes. 

Your point isnt lost on me trust me.  Its just that single player game or no, there has to be at least SOME similance of balance otherwise there's no point to the other classes such as melees and healers.

[Aradace]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Marixus99.9 wrote...

There is nothing complicated about tanks from any game. Doesn't matter how many skills, effects, items, etc you put on the game. In the end all you're doing is just trying to get as much of the enemy's dps focused on your tank, while you reduce the incoming dps as much as possible and increase the limit of how much you can take...

You could say the same thing about DPS or healing then.  The amount of skills (player and character), effects, items, etc to varies from game to game however.

Dunno what game you're playing in that case because EVERY mmo I've ever played the DPS's job is to cause as much damage as possible while at the same time keeping the amount of aggro they gain from it in check.  And if you're TRYING to get aggro on your healer...well...you're just a crappy healer to begin with because that means you're healing TOO much.  The healer's job, much like the DPS is to keep the Tank (first and foremost) alive long enough along with anyone else that may or may not get damaged to survive the battle while drawing as little to no aggro as possible.

Modifié par Aradace, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

I was referring to this part:

There is nothing complicated about tanks from any game. Doesn't matter how many skills, effects, items, etc you put on the game. In the end all you're doing is just trying to...

And then just list a basic description of what a DPS or healer's role is like you did. All the roles are capable of being reduced to a simple description because as a concept the roles are simple. The difficulty or nature of those assignments however varies from game to game.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:56 .

[Aradace]

Every MMO Ive played. The "primary" source of a tank's aggro comes from his/her taunt with "damage" coming in a far secondary. This was true in EQII, EQOA, Final Fantasy XI, LotrO. Not sure about WoW because I never grouped in WoW. But the afore mentioned games I know for a fact because I had fully leveled at least one tank type character in those games . In the case of Final Fantasy XI, if you are a pally, healing yourself even takes precedence over your damage in terms of keeping aggro. In all those cases, damage was the lowest priority in terms of keeping hate.

[drahelvete]

It would be nice to be able to play a lightly armored, speed-based warrior.
No, playing a rogue is NOT the same thing. I want a lightly armored, 2-handed weapon-wielding warrior. I feel silly clomping around in those massive, unwieldy tin cans.Those are cavalry armors and I don't even have a horse to help me carry the weight.

Will there be any real benefits to wearing lighter armor in DA2?

Modifié par drahelvete, 04 janvier 2011 - 08:59 .

[Aradace]

The only "lightly armored" tank types Ive ever seen were Monks/Bruisers in EQII and Wardens (pun not intended lol) in LotrO. The heaviest armor a Warden can wear is Medium (In LotrO that means Leather types).

In terms of actual mechanics for DA2 though, Im not sure or can even speculate as to how it's going to work. As long as it's a good game Im not going to cry too much about it either way. Guess we'll all get to find out one way or the other in about 60 days or so lol

Modifié par Aradace, 04 janvier 2011 - 09:21 .