95 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

There was a lot of automatic dialogue in ME2. To me it was worse than the one option conversation progressions they've introduced to many of the npc interactions. Lair of the Shadow Broker had even more of this dialogue throughout the DLC. A lot more. There were maybe 3-4 times where you could choose what you had to say. The rest was automatically spoken. 

The reason I'm posting this is because with ME3 coming right up I want to know (Bioware) if there will be an increase or decrease of automatic dialogue. In ME1 It only happened once and that was when you're landing on Illos. That was bearable. In ME2 it's way too constant. It ruins the immersion of what's supposed to be an RPG. We're supposed to be controlling our Shepards. In ME2 we had less control over what our Commanders could say. Shepard is starting to become a predefined character. If this becomes more prominent in the third game, then how could it be our unique Shepards? One of the things I loved about the first Mass Effect was the dialogue. It's what set the game apart - being able to select dialogue choices as in any RPG yet having it fully voiced. Now that innovation is dying as we're getting less manual and more automatic dialogue. I want to be able to choose everything my Commander Shepard says. It is the player's story is it not Casey Hudson? Establishing an automatic dialogue system as seen in ME2 will begin to diminish the uniqueness of one's Commander Shepard. In ME1's short automatic sequence, I wasn't that bothered. In ME2 it's too much to ignore. It's actually rather boring because it feels like I'm just playing a shooter and not an RPG when almost every moment a conversation initiates my Shepard starts conversing without my control. There are much better Shooter games out there (GoW) and if I wanted to play one I'd play it. I come to ME because of the unique Shooter RPG gameplay. 

I'm not that bothered by the lack of a complex inventory with sophisticated customizations. I am bothered that the game is assuming control of my character in terms of dialogue and character interaction. That's one of the things that made Bioware's games great. The dialogue. Games like KoTOR, Jade Empire, DA:O, etc... I love communicating with npc's because of the immersion it creates. You get the feeling that you're in the world, trying to understand whats going on, or get to know a squad member, enemy, etc... With automatic dialogue, the immersion is lost. You're just watching the players interact instead of participating in it. I understand that Bioware's trying to achieve a movie/cinematic feel with the trilogy. But it doesn't have to come with a loss of interaction and control over the dialogue. That was my major turn off with ME2. Other than that it was fine. 

My concern is that ME3 might be just like it, if not worse. It's the last game in the series, and it was a real pain to go through ME2 again coming fresh off of ME1 for my ME3 setup. So Bioware if you see this post please take it into consideration that there are people who enjoy the dialogue sequences of the game, and lose interest when the auto conversations kick in. This was extremely prominent in LoTSB. It was the worse part of the DLC. Just give us back the dialogue control like we had in ME1 and combine that with cinematic sequences. You could even do a timed response if you're attempting to have everything flow in a timely manner. But don't reduce the players control over their Shepard by injecting automatic dialogue throughout the game like in ME2. It made the game feel less immersive to me. 

Anyone has any thoughts on this issue? Hopefully Bioware sees this.

-Polite

[The Chosen Predator]

I could see that sometimes i felt like what i wanted him to say in a decision for him i made did not exactly go as I thought it would so I try to guide it back into that direction but there is not as much choice - i want more dialog choice for  myself I need to feel like what im doing isnt forced by quick timed actions but my actions alone.

Modifié par The Chosen Predator, 29 décembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[TelexFerra]

Could you provide a specific example from ME2?

[Pacifien]

I barely have enough control over Commander Shepard even if I get to pick every line of dialogue. Because when my Shepard ask if all he's getting is a trinket, he's asking for credits, not sex. Damn Asari Consort...



But honestly, once I noticed Shepard was incapable of saying more than one line of dialogue at a time, it was immersion breaking on its own in ME1. I don't need to pick every single line.



I wouldn't mind if they altered Shepard's lines based on tone of previously chosen dialogue, however.

[IrishSpectre257]

Pacifien wrote...

I barely have enough control over Commander Shepard even if I get to pick every line of dialogue. Because when my Shepard ask if all he's getting is a trinket, he's asking for credits, not sex. Damn Asari Consort...

But honestly, once I noticed Shepard was incapable of saying more than one line of dialogue at a time, it was immersion breaking on its own in ME1. I don't need to pick every single line.

I wouldn't mind if they altered Shepard's lines based on tone of previously chosen dialogue, however.

Aren't they doing something similar with Hawke in Dragon Age 2?

Shepard's auto-dialogue having a different tone based on the kind of person we've made him/her would be fantastic.

[SSV Enterprise]

The automatic dialogue is rather necessary to keep the cinematic feeling of the action scenes. A lot of the conversation choices are superfluous anyways unless it comes to making decisions.



ME1 wasn't any different. It simply gave you the illusion of choice, when a lot of times all the conversation options led to saying the same thing.

[Pacifien]

IrishSpectre257 wrote...
Aren't they doing something similar with Hawke in Dragon Age 2?

Shepard's auto-dialogue having a different tone based on the kind of person we've made him/her would be fantastic.

Yes, right, I knew there was a game in development that was working on that tone idea. I suppose Alpha Protocol did it as well.

Since they're stealingtaking inspiration from the ME series anyway, I don't see why ME3 can't go with that sort of system as well.

SSV Enterprise wrote...
ME1 wasn't any different. It simply gave you the illusion of choice, when a lot of times all the conversation options led to saying the same thing.

That was annoying. They might as well just have Shepard speak up without prompting. Which is basically what they did in ME2.

Modifié par Pacifien, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

The Chosen Predator wrote...

I could see that sometimes i felt like what i wanted him to say in a decision for him i made did not exactly go as I thought it would so I try to guide it back into that direction but there is not as much choice - i want more dialog choice for  myself I need to feel like what im doing isnt forced by quick timed actions but my actions alone.

Sometimes when there are 2-3 responses to progress a conversation they all end up linking to the exact same line. 

TelexFerra wrote...

Could you provide a specific example from ME2?

LoTSB. 

Pacifien wrote...

I barely have enough control over Commander Shepard even if I get to pick every line of dialogue. Because when my Shepard ask if all he's getting is a trinket, he's asking for credits, not sex. Damn Asari Consort...

But honestly, once I noticed Shepard was incapable of saying more than one line of dialogue at a time, it was immersion breaking on its own in ME1. I don't need to pick every single line.

I wouldn't mind if they altered Shepard's lines based on tone of previously chosen dialogue, however.

Lol I'm with you there. I was shocked that that was the outcome of choosing "is that it?"  Hopefully we'll get the response intentions mechanic that they're implementing in DA:2 to make it clear what we're saying. There was an instance in ME2 where that happened to me also. When you're romancing Miranda and chose one of the dialogue responses, it was completely different that what I had expected. 

I feel that picking everything the Commander says, outside of combat dialogue of course, maintains immersion. That's what I liked about ME1. 

-Polite

[-Skorpious-]

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I barely have enough control over Commander Shepard even if I get to pick every line of dialogue. Because when my Shepard ask if all he's getting is a trinket, he's asking for credits, not sex. Damn Asari Consort...

But honestly, once I noticed Shepard was incapable of saying more than one line of dialogue at a time, it was immersion breaking on its own in ME1. I don't need to pick every single line.

I wouldn't mind if they altered Shepard's lines based on tone of previously chosen dialogue, however.

Aren't they doing something similar with Hawke in Dragon Age 2?

Shepard's auto-dialogue having a different tone based on the kind of person we've made him/her would be fantastic.

Agree x 1000.

[SSV Enterprise]

Pacifien wrote...

That was annoying. They might as well just have Shepard speak up without prompting. Which is basically what they did in ME2.

Indeed.  I remember one particularly egregious example on Feros when talking to the Exogeni VI.  You had three conversation "options" -- "Tell me more", "This is what Saren wants", and "Damn it" -- and they all resulted in simply saying "Tell me everything you know about the Thorian."

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

Pacifien wrote...

IrishSpectre257 wrote...
Aren't they doing something similar with Hawke in Dragon Age 2?

Shepard's auto-dialogue having a different tone based on the kind of person we've made him/her would be fantastic.

Yes, right, I knew there was a game in development that was working on that tone idea. I suppose Alpha Protocol did it as well.

Since they're stealingtaking inspiration from the ME series anyway, I don't see why ME3 can't go with that sort of system as well.

SSV Enterprise wrote...
ME1 wasn't any different. It simply gave you the illusion of choice, when a lot of times all the conversation options led to saying the same thing.

That was annoying. They might as well just have Shepard speak up without prompting. Which is basically what they did in ME2.

I agree, there were parts in ME1 where the dialogue options all linked to the same response, but that's also evident in ME2. If you've played as much playthroughs as I have you'll notice. So in addition to auto dialogue, we have one response to progress the dialogue, and all dialogue options lead to the same response.

A good example of one option to progress the conversation would be talking to Miranda on the Normandy. You either only get one option to progress the dialogue, or you get two "investigate" typed responses on the left with "goodbye" on the right. It's completely linear.


-Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

That was annoying. They might as well just have Shepard speak up without prompting. Which is basically what they did in ME2.

Indeed.  I remember one particularly egregious example on Feros when talking to the Exogeni VI.  You had three conversation "options" -- "Tell me more", "This is what Saren wants", and "Damn it" -- and they all resulted in simply saying "Tell me everything you know about the Thorian."

That's not as annoying as automatic dialogue. In LoTSB for example, after you killed Vasir and Shepard and Liara walk, the dialogue is 100% automatic unless you continue to use the paragon interrupts, which result in auto dialogue, and the last one has manual response. I'd rather all responses leading to the same line rather than auto dialogue + that.

-Polite

[Pacifien]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
That's not as annoying as automatic dialogue.

Matter of preference because I do actually believe it is more annoying than automatic dialogue.

[Schneidend]

"Auto dialogue" was added to prevent dialogue wheels with multiple choices that all said the exact same thing.



If the dialogues you refer to had been done in ME1 style, you would have had three different blurbs that all said exactly the same thing to Liara when chosen. That's not a choice.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Schneidend wrote...

"Auto dialogue" was added to prevent dialogue wheels with multiple choices that all said the exact same thing.

If the dialogues you refer to had been done in ME1 style, you would have had three different blurbs that all said exactly the same thing to Liara when chosen. That's not a choice.

Yet that unfortunate feature is still there. There are still conversations where all options lead to one choice. And what makes the automatic dialogue better than all options leading to the same dialogue? They both have the same outcomes. Although out of the two at least the latter gives you the illusion of choice.

-Polite

[habitat 67]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

"Immersion" is starting to sound like a dirty word. I don't feel as though anything has been ruined.

No kidding. It's that whole Veruca Salt thing all over again.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Pacifien wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
That's not as annoying as automatic dialogue.

Matter of preference because I do actually believe it is more annoying than automatic dialogue.

Of course. I know some people may like it, and that some people prefer less dialogue which, is a result of auto dialogue. That's why I asked for you guys to share your thoughts on it. I want to know the reason behind it. I stated my reason for hating the auto convos was because it breaks the immersion. So what's your reason for liking it?

-Polite

[habitat 67]

I love, love, love automatic dialogue because it was done well. Not everything has to be choice based you control freaks. I'll bet you wish you could paint the SR2 pink too eh?

[Pacifien]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Of course. I know some people may like it, and that some people prefer less dialogue which, is a result of auto dialogue. That's why I asked for you guys to share your thoughts on it. I want to know the reason behind it. I stated my reason for hating the auto convos was because it breaks the immersion. So what's your reason for liking it?

It's not that I like it so much as it doesn't concern me. It's not immersion-breaking to me. If they want Shepard to say something in particular, rather than give me the illusion of choice, I'd rather they just have Shepard say it.

If they wanted to do it even better, then I'd say the choices a person makes in dialogue should alter the tone of auto-dialogue as the game progressed. If the developers really wanted to impress me, though, any choice would start to alter any dialogue or actions that follow.

[habitat 67]

Don't forget also that automatic dialogue makes the most sense for an already large DLC. Practicality, folks.

[Jaron Oberyn]

habitat 67 wrote...

I love, love, love automatic dialogue because it was done well. Not everything has to be choice based you control freaks. I'll bet you wish you could paint the SR2 pink too eh?

Get angry much? Insults like that won't get you anywhere. You tend to lose the respect of your fellow debaters. I wasn't disputing the quality of the automatic dialogue, yet the fact that it's present in what's supposed to be an RPG. If ME3 goes auto dialogue I will be disinclined to play it because it ruined the immersion of ME2 for me to the point that I get bored of playing it. Unfortunately I have to play it in order to get to ME3. If I want an automatic dialogued TPS I'd play GoW. It has better shooter mechanics. But what's ironic is that Cliffy B claims the future of Shooters is RPG's. 

-Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

Pacifien wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Of course. I know some people may like it, and that some people prefer less dialogue which, is a result of auto dialogue. That's why I asked for you guys to share your thoughts on it. I want to know the reason behind it. I stated my reason for hating the auto convos was because it breaks the immersion. So what's your reason for liking it?

It's not that I like it so much as it doesn't concern me. It's not immersion-breaking to me. If they want Shepard to say something in particular, rather than give me the illusion of choice, I'd rather they just have Shepard say it.

If they wanted to do it even better, then I'd say the choices a person makes in dialogue should alter the tone of auto-dialogue as the game progressed. If the developers really wanted to impress me, though, any choice would start to alter any dialogue or actions that follow.

I like that idea because at least it isn't the same exact auto responses. If it varies based on your paragon/renegade alignment or previous choices then that'd be somewhat more tolerable. 

-Polite

[Big stupid jellyfish]

I liked the auto-dialogue so far (and/or didn't pay that much attention to it) - but hey, that's because the lines more or less fitted my Shepard. I suggest Bioware be careful with auto-dialogue in ME3.

[habitat 67]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

I love, love, love automatic dialogue because it was done well. Not everything has to be choice based you control freaks. I'll bet you wish you could paint the SR2 pink too eh?

Get angry much? Insults like that won't get you anywhere. You tend to lose the respect of your fellow debaters. I wasn't disputing the quality of the automatic dialogue, yet the fact that it's present in what's supposed to be an RPG. If ME3 goes auto dialogue I will be disinclined to play it because it ruined the immersion of ME2 for me to the point that I get bored of playing it. Unfortunately I have to play it in order to get to ME3. If I want an automatic dialogued TPS I'd play GoW. It has better shooter mechanics. But what's ironic is that Cliffy B claims the future of Shooters is RPG's. 

-Polite

I am not angry at all silly but think it amusing of you to speak about such things as "immersion ruination" over a few lines here and there of well written automatic dialogue. Some nitpicks aren't worth the picks, you know? (and over nitpicking will tend to water down your integrity as an otherwise decent poster)

And seriously, how many times did you play through ME2 before you were so bored of it? A few posts ago you you said something about many playthroughs, which is much more attention than most people can devote to any game.