95 réponses à ce sujet

[Weskerr]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Could you provide a specific example from ME2?

LoTSB.

So your problem is with the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC and not ME2 as a game. I can't think of any "automatic dialogue" outside of this DLC except for Shepard's offhand comments when he is moving around an environment or responding to a squadmate's comments while moving around an environment (like when Garrus says "fighting in a hospital won't be pleasant" during Mordin's Loyalty mission and Shepard responds "When is fighting ever pleasant?").

[Schneidend]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Yet that unfortunate feature is still there. There are still conversations where all options lead to one choice. And what makes the automatic dialogue better than all options leading to the same dialogue? They both have the same outcomes. Although out of the two at least the latter gives you the illusion of choice.

-Polite

Would you care to point out a specific instance of this? I'm pretty sure I've never seen an instance where Shepard says the same thing with different options in ME2.

And how is it better? Saves me the trouble of remembering which I chose for later playthroughs, saves me the time of making the initial decision, and allows the conversation to be more cinematic and well-paced.

[PoisonTea]

Well this sucks. I hate auto dialogue. The reason I enjoy Bioware games so much is because of all the options I have during dialogues.

Bioware games are like "interactive" movies.

Games that tend to be "movie" only I get bored to death, like starcraft 2 for example. That story was boring as **** and I just couldn't keep playing. I wanted dialogue options but SC2 is still stuck in the past (12 years roughly).

[Schneidend]

ME2 is still 99% dialogue options. The only time there is auto-dialogue is when Bioware didn't write anything different for Shepard to say in a given instance. The same thing happened in ME1, except you were given three different blurbs that prompted Shepard to say the exact same line.

[habitat 67]

PoisonTea wrote...

Well this sucks. I hate auto dialogue. The reason I enjoy Bioware games so much is because of all the options I have during dialogues.

Bioware games are like "interactive" movies.

Games that tend to be "movie" only I get bored to death, like starcraft 2 for example. That story was boring as **** and I just couldn't keep playing. I wanted dialogue options but SC2 is still stuck in the past (12 years roughly).

Um, you didn't even play the game yet!

[PoisonTea]

habitat 67 wrote...

PoisonTea wrote...

Well this sucks. I hate auto dialogue. The reason I enjoy Bioware games so much is because of all the options I have during dialogues.

Bioware games are like "interactive" movies.

Games that tend to be "movie" only I get bored to death, like starcraft 2 for example. That story was boring as **** and I just couldn't keep playing. I wanted dialogue options but SC2 is still stuck in the past (12 years roughly).

Um, you didn't even play the game yet!

Yes but he said there is too much auto dialogue in ME2. That is heart breaking.

[Jane Shepard]

Indeed. A lot of auto dialogue in Mass Effect 2... As for me, I don't really like it. In my oppinion it makes Shepard more impersonal. I mean it's not a player's choice what to say sometimes. That makes me upset.

[Fixers0]

 This has been problem, throughout the entire game, i think this is so because the plot of Mass effect 2 relies greatly on convienance, for example during the suicide mission Shepard says:

''Get in close to finish them of.'' - Shepard.
''Would't this cause debris from the Collector cruiser to hit us and damage our ship?'' -Second opinion.

However, if we would remain at safe distance the Normandy does not crash on the base and that will mess up the plot. 

[Rykoth]

Shepard isn't like the Grey Warden in DAO. He isn't "your" character. No matter what you name him. Or if him is a her. No matter if you go the default or the custom route, the bottom line is that Shepard is ME's character. In say, Dragon Age Origins, YOU were the Warden in so many ways. You chose race, gender, name, appearance. The Warden was a blank slate.



In ME, its no different then a movie. It's a mostly defined character. The choices you make aren't "what is Shepard going to do in this universe," its "how is Shepard going to do what Shepard does." That means there is ultimately, a linear story, a point A to point B. That means that what the players decide is HOW he/she gets there.



Thats my interpretation... IMO, the auto dialogue is perfect. There's nothing "immersion breaking" about a character doing what he or she supposed to do.

[Fixers0]

Mark my word it's just all for convience, for a predifend character Shepard is a dumb one especialy for a character driven story, often a more logical choice could made but again this will mess up the plot.

[Fredvdp]

There were many situations in ME1 where multiple dialogue options lead to the same line. I think playing these lines automatically is better than giving the illusion of choice when there isn't one.

[Elvis_Mazur]

This is one of the few things I complain about Mass Effect 2 (mining is another).

I sensed the same thing in Mass Effect 1 and it was more than just one time, like you described, although I can't remember where those things happened.

I would never that it ruined immersion, because that happens to me when I see a bug or something really strange engine or graphic- wise happening in front of me. But, It was really uncomfortable too see my Shepard acting like an independent person that I have no control over him.



And, please Bioware, don't do that again in ME3; it is an RPG after all.

[habitat 67]

I am having trouble understanding how complete character dialogue control is a staple of an RPG? Are there fully voiced characters in RPG games where 100% of the dialogue is variable? I have not played such an RPG.

[Kronner]

Schneidend wrote...

ME2 is still 99% dialogue options. The only time there is auto-dialogue is when Bioware didn't write anything different for Shepard to say in a given instance. The same thing happened in ME1, except you were given three different blurbs that prompted Shepard to say the exact same line.

Precisely.

[Bocks]

Are you joking? I love the untriggered dialogue. It was one of the things that made LotSB so great! I hope there's MORE of it throughout ME3.



I see where you're coming from, though. You're afraid Shepard will act too much unlike the Shepard you defined. Perhaps Bioware can help avoid this by adding an option at the beginning of ME3. It would be something like:



How should Shepard act during missions?

[] Ruthless

[] Serious

[] Focused

[] Energetic

[] Ethusiastic



If you pick Ruthless, perhaps Shepard would snap at his crew if they begin chatting in the middle of a battle, while if you pick Enthusiastic, Shepard would join in on the friendly banter, much like in LotSB. Or maybe, if an explosion occurs, serious Shepard wastes no time in understand what just happened, while an energetic Shepard would make a joke on it. This would be useful because you could decide how you wanted Shepard to act, and hence you know why you Shepard responds to his crew in the way he does during missions.

[KingDan97]

Mass Effect 2 was going for a cinematic feel. Maybe what you're looking for is a tonal change based on what you say to what will be said? That I can understand but well... "You don't get to make demands of the council." What I mean is, one purchaser, even if you speak for a base of several hundred gamers, won't make a large enough shift in what Bioware will do to make a difference.

As for LotSB, well that was already on the upper limits of download size according to Microsoft. They couldn't do large bridges of dialogue.

If you want a reason, it's this. It may be your Shepard, but it's still Shepard, and parts of him, his reactions to certain situations and his sexuality(as much as I support SS relationships) are not yours to make. Unfortunate as you may see that, it makes for a better game that doesn't constantly remind you "HEY, YOU'RE PLAYING A GAME! MAKE A CHOICE!"

Modifié par KingDan97, 29 décembre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Eromenos]

I agree with the OP's assertions.

[Cyberfrog81]

I for one don't need to see a dialogue wheel for every little thing Shepard says. On the other hand, not every other situation in ME3 should be like the Shepard/Liara banter (great as it was) either. Balance is good. Balance the "cinematic feel" with actual, meaningful choices and cool gameplay. That's more than good enough for me.

[Kappa Neko]

habitat 67 wrote...

I am having trouble understanding how complete character dialogue control is a staple of an RPG? Are there fully voiced characters in RPG games where 100% of the dialogue is variable? I have not played such an RPG.

My thoughts exactly! ALL the RPGs I've played until Mass Effect had no dialog control whatsoever!! I considered those games intercative movies. You'd fight a bit (or a lot ), buy stuff, watch a cutscene. Repeat.  FFXIII overdid the interactive movie thing by basically turning it into a string of cutscenes. Thus turning the game into a long movie with annoying short breaks. I love games that play like an interactive movie. Since ME I crave for some control of what's going on, though. Being able to influence the dialogues makes the game feel like a movie you yourself are writing the script for. That is an illusion, of course. But it feels nice anyway.
To me playing an RPG has always been about watching a story unfold. For the plot to progress you have to do stuff. If it's a great game the stuff you have to do is fun, too. Since you'll spend a lot of time fighting, the combat system better be good. But I'd rather play a game with crappy combat than a game with a crappy story. But that's just me.

I'm fine with automatic dialogue. I don't need to make a choice when there's nothing to decide. What bothers me far more is that zombie of a dialogue wheel. Upper left. Upper left. Upper left *drools*. Ahrrrg!
I'd like ME3 to be a combo of the dialogue wheel and a spoken response, and Dragon Age style options that are not compromised by having to choose either paragon or renegade in order to be able to make certain choices later on. I've only just started playing DA:O, so I don't know yet how my choices influence certain events, but because I don't know what answer is "good" or "bad", I pick what I want. ME makes me desperate to fill my paragon bar, so I can finally persuade Miranda to stop pouting like a 3 year old. Something which would never have happened if I had had enough paragon points, despite having been good throughout the entire game (not playing an imported character sucks!).

[Ryzaki]

I agree with the OP which is why I see ME as more of an action adventure than an RPG. It makes my irritation decrease.

It really isn't an RPG at all. Just a choice your own adventure game.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[marshalleck]

I much prefer ME2's dialogue. I won't call it auto-dialogue, because the implication is that control or options were taken away from the player, where they never existed in the first place. It's just dialogue. And it's much better than having the scene stop, a wheel pop up with a bunch of different lines that all result in Shepard saying the exact same thing.



There are much more important things that need attention in ME3. Dialogue is fine.

[Northern Sun]

I think it's better than in ME1 when they kept giving you a dialogue wheel every line with all three choices being the exact same.

[Shotokanguy]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

"Immersion" is starting to sound like a dirty word. I don't feel as though anything has been ruined.

Seriously. Immersion is overused to complain about something, and if it's truly so easily broken in games, then it's an overrated component of the game as well.

[TheSeventhJedi]

I contend that there was the same amount of "auto" dialogue in ME2 as ME1, they just didn't try to hide it in ME2. In the first installment, I can't count how many conversations there were where all three convo options gave the exact same response. This time around, when they only had one response for you, they didn't pretend to give you an option.

[marshalleck]

"Breaking immersion" is the catch-all phrase for "the developers did something I don't like" for people who are incapable of articulating the actual problem as they see it. It's completely meaningless now, made so by rote repetition and regurgitation on video game forums all across the internet.