95 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

Well, if we get a new Squad I can see Bioware taking the Quality over Quantity approach. After all, a Trilogy always works like this...



Part 1 - Massive Hit

Part 2 - Radical change that meets controversy. Used as a testing ground to see what Fans want and what Fans miss that was removed.

Part 3 - Takes what made each good than scrapping what made them bad. Considered the Masterpiece.

[Edge 7]

I liked the auto dialogue because I like to think of Shepard as independent from myself, as his own personality.



Plus I hated having three choices that all led to the same dialogue in Mass Effect 1

[Jaron Oberyn]

[quote]Weskerr wrote...

[quote]PoliteAssasin wrote...



[quote]TelexFerra wrote...

Could you provide a specific example from ME2?[/quote]

LoTSB.[/quote]

So your problem is with the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC and not ME2 as a game. I can't think of any "automatic dialogue" outside of this DLC except for Shepard's offhand comments when he is moving around an environment or responding to a squadmate's comments while moving around an environment (like when Garrus says "fighting in a hospital won't be pleasant" during Mordin's Loyalty mission and Shepard responds "When is fighting ever pleasant?").
[/quote]

All throughout the game. LoTSB just happened to have a lot of auto dialogue out of the total dialgue that's included with the dlc. I haven't played the game through in a while so I don't exactly remember each exact moment. I'm getting on right now and I'll be taking notes on where it happens. It's spread throughout the game. You either were'nt bothered by it or didn't really noticed. I know the suicide mission has it for sure.

[quote]PoisonTea wrote...

Well this sucks. I hate auto dialogue.
The reason I enjoy Bioware games so much is because of all the options I
have during dialogues.

Bioware games are like "interactive" movies.

Games
that tend to be "movie" only I get bored to death, like starcraft 2 for
example. That story was boring as **** and I just couldn't keep
playing. I wanted dialogue options but SC2 is still stuck in the past
(12 years roughly).
[/quote]

Exactly my thoughts. It becomes just a regular shooter with auto dialogue, and in my opinion ME2 is not that good of a shooter. If I wanted to play one, I'd play a game that does it right - Gears of War.

[quote]Schneidend wrote...

ME2 is still 99% dialogue options. The
only time there is auto-dialogue is when Bioware didn't write anything
different for Shepard to say in a given instance. The same thing
happened in ME1, except you were given three different blurbs that
prompted Shepard to say the exact same line.[/quote]

I think you need to play the game over again.

[quote]Jane Shepard wrote...

Indeed. A lot of auto dialogue in
Mass Effect 2... As for me, I don't really like it. In my oppinion it
makes Shepard more impersonal. I mean it's not a player's choice what to
say sometimes. That makes me upset.[/quote]


Agreed. Because you lose the immersion once you lose control over the character that you're supposed to be defining as you go along in the game. Bioware's beginning to make a predefined shepard, and I'm hoping this won't be in ME3 because it will make a lot of people upset.

[quote]Rykoth wrote...

Shepard isn't like the Grey Warden in DAO.
He isn't "your" character. No matter what you name him. Or if him is a
her. No matter if you go the default or the custom route, the bottom
line is that Shepard is ME's character. In say, Dragon Age Origins, YOU
were the Warden in so many ways. You chose race, gender, name,
appearance. The Warden was a blank slate.

In ME, its no different
then a movie. It's a mostly defined character. The choices you make
aren't "what is Shepard going to do in this universe," its "how is
Shepard going to do what Shepard does." That means there is ultimately, a
linear story, a point A to point B. That means that what the players
decide is HOW he/she gets there.

Thats my interpretation... IMO,
the auto dialogue is perfect. There's nothing "immersion breaking" about
a character doing what he or she supposed to do.[/quote]

Wrong. According to Bioware Shepard is our character and the Mass Effect universe is the players personal universe. It's only in ME2 that they're starting to go back on their word in regards to that. In Mass Effect you choose your background, greatest achievement, gener, name, and appearance. So how is that any different from DA:O? The only difference is the race which doesn't equate to the character being your character alone. ME is just like any other RPG, or at least was up until ME2, where you choose what your character says and does. The only difference is fully voiced dialogue, which paraphrases what the dialogue options say. That doesn't' make it a predefined story. ME1 wasn't predefined character with a linear story. ME2 was. I, and many other people, am hoping that ME3 won't have this junk in it. If you break the one mechanic in the trilogy that set it apart just to add more linear gameplay or to make it more appealant to another fanbase you're goint to upset a lot of fans. The dramatic changes they're implementing over the course of the trilogy are gamebreaking factors for some people. Most significantly is the reduction of manual dialogue or choice in ME2.

[quote]PetrySilva wrote...
] But, It was really uncomfortable
too see my Shepard acting like an independent person that I have no
control over him.

And, please Bioware, don't do that again in ME3; it is an RPG after all. [/quote]

Exactly how I feel. It breaks the immersion to see your character carry on full conversations with npc's without your control. Felt like a shooter, and this is supposed to be an RPG is it not? Or has Norman completely converted the game over to the shooter genre?

[quote]habitat 67 wrote...

I am having trouble understanding how
complete character dialogue control is a staple of an RPG? Are there
fully voiced characters in RPG games where 100% of the dialogue is
variable? I have not played such an RPG.[/quote]

Bioware's RPG's have always been focused on dialogue and story. Apparently you haven't played many of them. With ME2, they've reduced the amount of dialogue to add more action in the game. In addition to this, they've implemented automatic dialogue throughout the story. This is the first "rpg" from Bioware that I've played that has automatic dialogue. It's not consistent with their history. Which gives us the feeling that this is done in order to appease the shooter crowd who prefer more action/shooting rather than conversing with NPC's - which was always the richest feature of any Bioware RPG. The ability to talk in a video game and inteact with NPC's.
Try again please.

[quote]KingDan97 wrote...
If you want a reason, it's this. It may be
your Shepard, but it's still Shepard, and parts of him, his reactions to
certain situations and his sexuality(as much as I support SS
relationships) are not yours to make. Unfortunate as you may see that,
it makes for a better game that doesn't constantly remind you "HEY,
YOU'RE PLAYING A GAME! MAKE A CHOICE!"
[/quote]

According to
Bioware the it's the individual players unique universe. I can't it
being so if each players Shepard reacts the same exact way in automatic
dialogue throughout the game. It loses it's originality. There is no
unique universe or player as Bioware stated when they were marketing
Mass Effect.

[quote]Kappa Neko wrote...

My thoughts exactly! ALL the RPGs I've played until Mass Effect had no dialog control whatsoever!!

[/quote]

Then you haven't played many Bioware RPG's have you?

-Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

Edge 7 wrote...

I liked the auto dialogue because I like to think of Shepard as independent from myself, as his own personality.

Plus I hated having three choices that all led to the same dialogue in Mass Effect 1

Considering hes supposed to be the players personal character he shouldn't be indipendent from your control.

-Polite

[habitat 67]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Bioware's RPG's have always been focused on dialogue and story. Apparently you haven't played many of them. With ME2, they've reduced the amount of dialogue to add more action in the game. In addition to this, they've implemented automatic dialogue throughout the story. This is the first "rpg" from Bioware that I've played that has automatic dialogue. It's not consistent with their history. Which gives us the feeling that this is done in order to appease the shooter crowd who prefer more action/shooting rather than conversing with NPC's - which was always the richest feature of any Bioware RPG. The ability to talk in a video game and inteact with NPC's.
Try again please.

Insinuating I haven't played any Bioware games because you don't understand what I was trying to say?

Notice I said fully voiced, not written. The amount of disc space used for spoken dialogue is greater than what you can read. Had Shepard been vocally mute exept for in text I'm sure that they would have kept their previous format, and all player choices would have been optional.

Having a VOICED character with the amount of variables allowed in a written dialogue RPG would be technically impractical.

This especially makes sense in the DLC. Having 300 other spoken variables would  have made a DLC that few would have the patience or harddrive space to download.
So it was I'm sure a difficult decision for them, but one that they felt was important for the feel of this particular RPG.

It's not just a shooter/RPG arguement. Bioware is trying to fuse together the two elements for a unique sort of experience.

[Edge 7]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Edge 7 wrote...

I liked the auto dialogue because I like to think of Shepard as independent from myself, as his own personality.

Plus I hated having three choices that all led to the same dialogue in Mass Effect 1

Considering hes supposed to be the players personal character he shouldn't be indipendent from your control.

-Polite

I've never actually 'liked' a pc that was completely in my control (Revan, The Warden) because there wasn't much to them but my own decisions. Seperate from my own perspective, I can actually appreciate Shepard as a character and not just an avatar for myself in the game's universe.

Personal preference, though. Neither view is better. Agree to disagree.

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

Well, if we get a new Squad I can see Bioware taking the Quality over Quantity approach. After all, a Trilogy always works like this...

Part 1 - Massive Hit
Part 2 - Radical change that meets controversy. Used as a testing ground to see what Fans want and what Fans miss that was removed.
Part 3 - Takes what made each good than scrapping what made them bad. Considered the Masterpiece.

What the hell does that have to do with this thread?

[Schneidend]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I think you need to play the game over again.

No, I don't. I was referring to ratio between chosen dialogue and autodialogue in ME2.

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Considering hes supposed to be the players personal character he shouldn't be indipendent from your control.

-Polite

Shepard is out of your control several times throughout ME1, like fleeing the Therum ruins, grappling in CQC with Saren, and the numerous illusions of choice where Shepard said the same thing no matter what option you selected. Regardless of whether you get to pick between Meaningless Blurb 1, 2, and 3, you still say the same thing. Control of Shepard has been taken out of your hands in that instance, since you don't actually have a choice to make.

Shepard was never meant to be a typical Bioware PC whose entire being is a creation of his player. There are aspects of Shepard's personality that are simply always true.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Schneidend wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I think you need to play the game over again.

No, I don't. I was referring to ratio between chosen dialogue and autodialogue in ME2.

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Considering hes supposed to be the players personal character he shouldn't be indipendent from your control.

-Polite

Shepard is out of your control several times throughout ME1, like fleeing the Therum ruins, grappling in CQC with Saren, and the numerous illusions of choice where Shepard said the same thing no matter what option you selected. Regardless of whether you get to pick between Meaningless Blurb 1, 2, and 3, you still say the same thing. Control of Shepard has been taken out of your hands in that instance, since you don't actually have a choice to make.

Shepard was never meant to be a typical Bioware PC whose entire being is a creation of his player. There are aspects of Shepard's personality that are simply always true.

In ME1 when you're running from the mines in Therum it's a cinematic, not a dialogue sequence. The most he says there is "Move move move". Big deal. When he was fighting with saren, again no dialogue there. That was a cinematic. Regardless of what you think there are many instances in ME2 where all responses lead to the same outcome. There are also dialogues where you can only choose one option to progress it linearly, as in Miranda's dialogue, or choose "goodbye". That's basically the equivalent of automatic dialogue since you can only choose one option plus one or two "investigate" options that don't even progress the conversation or establish a stance on the subject matter. Your argument has been effortlessly refuted. Try again.


-Polite

[Phaedon]

I liked it.

[Schneidend]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
In ME1 when you're running from the mines in Therum it's a cinematic, not a dialogue sequence. The most he says there is "Move move move". Big deal. When he was fighting with saren, again no dialogue there.

I was under the impression you meant any time Shepard was not being controlled by the player. My mistake.

That was a cinematic. Regardless of what you think there are many instances in ME2 where all responses lead to the same outcome. There are also dialogues where you can only choose one option to progress it linearly, as in Miranda's dialogue, or choose "goodbye". That's basically the equivalent of automatic dialogue since you can only choose one option plus one or two "investigate" options that don't even progress the conversation or establish a stance on the subject matter.

So, when ME2 doesn't offer the illusion of options that don't do
anything different because there's nothing else to say in that given
instance, it's bad? But, when ME1 gives you (1) I feel this way, (2) On
the other hand, and (3) This is stupid that all cause Shepard to say the
exact same thing, it's perfectly fine?

Further, investigate options are a choice, are they not? They give you the option to learn more about something, so you can better make a judgement based on your Shepard's knowledge when you reach a dialogue's conclusion.

All ME2 does is cut out unecessary coding, writing, and pauses in the conversation, and saves the player time. How is this a bad thing?

Your argument has been effortlessly refuted. Try again.

Now you're just being rude and downright pretentious and venomous.

[sympathy4saren]

Yeah auto dialogue has to be trimmed back.

[Adriana22]

AwesomeName wrote...

What I'd really like is the option to make dialogue transparent - i.e. allow me to see what my Shepard is ACTUALLY going to say!

It ruins the flow of the game when I constantly have to reload conversations in order to exhaust all possible dialogue options, trying to remember said options, and then deciding on the best possible conversation. A CONVERSATION HISTORY would also be nice, so I don't have to second-guess what I just said.

THIS.

[tonnactus]

It was especially annoying and noticable in Lair of the Shadowbroker.Such things shouldnt exist in a roleplaying game.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Schneidend wrote...

Snip

Reread my post. ME2 does have the "all responses leading to one outcome" dialogue. It may not be as prominent as in ME1, but it's there. Another addition to the dialogue changes in ME2 was the single response progression. As I said above, go talk to Miranda on the normandy and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. This was also evident throughout the game. Bottom line is Bioware's reduced the "choice" in dialogue and are pretty much forcing you to either choose one option to progress it further, or choose "goodbye". It's either roleplaying or it's a shooter, in terms of dialogue. Don't have about 60% of the game auto dialogue and then another 15% single response progression. Either give us control over what our Shepards have to say, or take it all away. The middle ground just isn't working. 

tonnactus wrote...

It was especially annoying and noticable in Lair of the Shadowbroker.Such things shouldnt exist in a roleplaying game.

Exactly. Especially in a Bioware RPG where dialogue is essential. Again, it ruins the immersion. 



-Polite

Modifié par PoliteAssasin, 30 décembre 2010 - 01:05 .

[Alexander Kogan]

The only time I ever lose the sense of immersion is when the character is speaking dialogue and yet NO SOUND IS BEING PRODUCED.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Perhaps coming from JRPGs, I am simply accustom to this, however I was not often bothered by automated dialogue. While it may hamper choice to some extent. It allows for a more fluid conversation. In ME not only did a fair portions of the 'choices' lead to precisely the same conclusion. Shepard felt far too stoic at times to accommodate the wheel of choice.



An impressive feat would be if we were capable of controlling the tone of Shepard's dialogue but I still prefer a decent amount of automated conversations for the aforementioned reasons. Please do not confuse this with a desire for less dialogue because that cannot be further from the truth. I would be happily content with double the length of ME2's.

[uberdowzen]

This has probably already been said but weren't those parts in ME2 just replacing the parts in ME1 where every dialogue option resulted in the same line being spoken? This might just be me but if I'm not choosing what's going to be said anyway I don't see any reason to click.

[Jaron Oberyn]

uberdowzen wrote...

This has probably already been said but weren't those parts in ME2 just replacing the parts in ME1 where every dialogue option resulted in the same line being spoken? This might just be me but if I'm not choosing what's going to be said anyway I don't see any reason to click.

No. Because in ME2 there are still many instances where all responses lead to the same outcome. If that was the case I wouldn't be as opposed to it as I am. 

-Polite

[Collider]

It's better than ME1 having dialog options that are exactly the same!

[uberdowzen]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

No. Because in ME2 there are still many instances where all responses lead to the same outcome. If that was the case I wouldn't be as opposed to it as I am. 

-Polite

So there are parts in Mass Effect 2 where every dialogue option will lead to the exact same line being spoken? I thought at the very least what Shepherd actually said changed, even if the dialogue after that was identical.

[Schneidend]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Reread my post. ME2 does have the "all responses leading to one outcome" dialogue. It may not be as prominent as in ME1, but it's there. Another addition to the dialogue changes in ME2 was the single response progression. As I said above, go talk to Miranda on the normandy and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

I didn't say ME2 didn't have any linear dialogue, only that it didn't trick me into thinking I had other options. When I talk to Miranda, I know exactly how many options I have.

My point was not that ME2 has no linear dialogue, only that ME2 doesn't waste my time trying to disguise it.