128 réponses à ce sujet

[Phoenix_Loftian]

She's like Loghain. A racist, a unrepentant mass murderer, and too stubborn in her beliefs to see past their own racism.
Aside from the obvious physical differences, her ideology is basically like Loghain's. "Humans/Orlesians are always the enemy!"

I'll concede to the fact that Loghain at least faces his death (regardless of if via sacrifice against the Archdemon or killed in the Landsmeet) with his head held high and without any complaints.

Velanna, when asked to face-up to her crimes by either the Warden or Justice? Refuses to seek penance and doesn't feel bad at all. She just acts angry and hateful as if those innocent people are to blame for her murdering them.

These are innocent people who were just moving caravans of supplies for the Warden and the refugees of Amaranthine. ;

On my first playthrough, I killed her for killing those innocents because she refused to back down and just talk.

I was regretting it until I did my second playthrough with my Human Noble, let her live, and made her join only to find out she's a stuck-up, unrepentant, and self-serving idiot.

She wants revenge against humans out of spite, puts the sister she apparently loves in danger to do so, ends-up getting her friends killed, her sister becomes a deranged lunatic, she kills innocent people without even attempting to investigate what happened, assumes humans are the guilty party because they're human and she never feels the need to explain herself or repent. 

I just can't stand her. How is it that people can hate on Morrigan, Loghain, or Anora for being selfish or evil but not this racist for what she did? How were her actions not more selfish especially when you factor in the fact that what caused all this was her breaking away from the clan just to kill humans? 

In my opinion, Velanna is quite possibly the worst character so far in the series. I'd compare her to Rendon Howe in her bloodthirst and the actions she took.

[Sarah1281]

Wow, I don't see the Loghain/Velanna comparison at all. And since the Orlesian nationality is not a race, you can't say that Loghain's hating on Orlesians is racism.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

Discrimination is discrimination, no matter what form it takes.

[Sarah1281]

But discrimination is not always racism and what you listed really seems just like surface similarities.

[LupusYondergirl]

Yeah, I'm no Velanna fan, but I'm really not seeing the Loghain comparison, either.

Velanna hated a different race because of their race.

Loghain didn't think Orlesians were racially inferior or anything- he distrusted them because until thirty years earlier their nation had been occupying his and brutally abusing the citizens in horrifying ways. He didn't trust them because he wasn't a complete idiot. I mean, what happened thirty years after the American revolution? We fought another war with England (OK, closer to twenty seven years, but you get my point)! Things like that don't end overnight, and in the scheme of things three decades is the blink of an eye.

Loghain hated a nation that had done him immense personal wrong, and his nation immense political wrong. He distrusted a political entity because they had a recent track record of, well, brutal and violent occupations of his nation. He didn't hate Orlesian people, he hated the nation. Huge difference there.

If it was three hundred years earlier I'd say sure, he's a paranoid lunatic. But thirty? That's just common sense. What empire is going to just say 'oh well' about one of their provinces breaking off, espeically if you're going by pseudo-medieval mindsets and politics. How many times did the same tiny bits of land change hands between England and France in the middle ages throughout the hundred years war?

That and, well, nationality isn't race.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:48 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

She's like Loghain. A racist, a unrepentant mass murderer, and too stubborn in her beliefs to see past their own racism.
Aside from the obvious physical differences, her ideology is basically like Loghain's. "Humans/Orlesians are always the enemy!"

In one endgame slide, if you befriend her she changes her views on humans and ends up single-handedly saving a human village against a darkspawn attack.

So I wouldn't say she never changes. And it's not like she's the only Dalish who doesn't like humans.

[Phoenix_Loftian]

She's definitely the craziest. She goes as far as to defect from her clan to kill humans and she kills innocents and never feels remorse. Like Loghain betraying Cailan and never feeling remorse (if you take him to the Return to Ostagar DLC, he tells Wynne that he would do it all over again because of what the Warden achieved in the formation of a Fereldan army).

[IanPolaris]

In the game (Awakenings) Velenna shows no remorse and no change at any time. As far as I'm concerned one blurb in an epilog is far too little and far too late. Not only that but she wants to be a Grey Warden for all the wrong reasons (entirely self-centered reasons) and one thing a Grey Warden shouldn't be is self centered.

I find she has no redeeming virtues (and Finn is a far better mage anyway), so I generally perform high justice as Arl of Amaranthine on the spot.

-Polaris

Edit:  Even other Dalish don't like Velanna (and in fact exiled her).  It's one thing to hate humans.  It's quite another to being a raging psychopath and never, ever, bother to check your facts or admit error.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:33 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

In the game (Awakenings) Velenna shows no remorse and no change at any time. As far as I'm concerned one blurb in an epilog is far too little and far too late.

Considering her change of heart happens, I think, six months after you recruit her (or however long Awakenings takes), I don't think it's too little too late at all. But if you expect ingame apologies and vocal admissions of guilt from characters, especially proud ones, in order to prove they have actual regrets, I suppose you wouldn't agree, no.

Not only that but she wants to be a Grey Warden for all the wrong reasons (entirely self-centered reasons) and one thing a Grey Warden shouldn't be is self centered.

I'm sure plenty of Origins players would say they RPed self-centered characters. Just because they weren't your idea of what Grey Wardens should be doesn't mean they weren't effective at stopping the Blight or killing darkspawn.

I find she has no redeeming virtues (and Finn is a far better mage anyway), so I generally perform high justice as Arl of Amaranthine on the spot.

Mmhm...

Edit:  Even other Dalish don't like Velanna (and in fact exiled her).  It's one thing to hate humans.  It's quite another to being a raging psychopath and never, ever, bother to check your facts or admit error.

So long as she admits error where you can hear it, anyway.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:03 .

[IanPolaris]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So long as she admits error where you can hear it, anyway.

Frankly yes.  Admitting error but telling no one (and apparentlyh not acting on it) is not admitting error at all.  If some one else doesn't hear it, it's not genuine.

-Polaris

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So long as she admits error where you can hear it, anyway.

Frankly yes.  Admitting error but telling no one (and apparentlyh not acting on it) is not admitting error at all.  If some one else doesn't hear it, it's not genuine.

-Polaris

Saving a village *by herself* rather than laughing psychopathically as the darkspawn overrun it doesn't count as a loud and clear, "I hope this makes up for some of my mistakes"?

Read between the lines.

[IanPolaris]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Saving a village *by herself* rather than laughing psychopathically as the darkspawn overrun it doesn't count as a loud and clear, "I hope this makes up for some of my mistakes"?

Read between the lines.

Nope.  The epilog cards are too messed up for me to give them much credence and usually Velena just dissapears anyway (it's very hard to get that ending).

Basically I see a self-rightous murderous woman who should be executed for her crimes especially given that she shows absolutely no remorse.

-Polaris

[CalJones]

To get her good ending, you must first take her with you to the Mother's lair and second, you must spare the Architect. I did that in my last run through of Awakening, for a change, and it was nice to see it, but I'll agree that during the game she is hard to like. Although she's a bit nicer once you get her approval up, her comments to Keenan (the warden with the crushed legs in the Silverite Mine) and her "warm and fuzzy" comment are particularly obnoxious.

Were she the only decent mage in the expansion, I could see a case for keeping her around, but we already have Anders, who is a much more likeable character. I have recruited her a few times, but I've also killed her just as often and I don't feel the same sort of angst that I would killing any of the Origins characters (well, except Wynne).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I wouldn't compare her to Loghain. Loghain does what he does out of a seriously warped sense of patriotism, but even as he does things, he seriously regrets it and feels the weight of his descisions, though he won't change course because he's convinced himself it's the only way. Hell, he even shows some remorse at Landsmeet when you call him out on selling the elves.



Velanna acts out of pure impulse and psychotic rage. There's no method to her madness, she purely acts out of personal whim and rage. And doesn't show remorse at all, just continues to whine and act like a psychotic cow. She is also your stereotypical pissed off elf out "to get the man". Yawn.



That said, i do usually make her a Warden, because it is a fitting punishment. Short life that is doomed to end in the lonely deeproads, lessened fertility, ect. I have killed her before, though, but I prefer to at least recruit her, if nothing else, because I like completion in games.



But her and Oghren are the only two awakenings characters I really could do without. the others, given the short time we get to know them, are quite interesting, and have great potential for further development.

[Sarah1281]

Frankly yes. Admitting error but telling no one (and apparentlyh not acting on it) is not admitting error at all. If some one else doesn't hear it, it's not genuine.

So it's impossible to regret something and realize you're wrong unless you do a freaking confessional?



And the acts in the game would have been committed even had Velanna absolutely loved humans. The darkspawn convinced her that the people she was killing had her sister and she was trying to get her back. Since the humans had no idea about it, they couldn't do that.

[Ymladdych]

My toon performed high justice on her, too. I didn't care for her personality, either, but I tried playing through with her, and when her pitch to join the Grey Wardens was, "Hey, I want your powers for my personal use but I'll help you along the way," the immediate voice in my head was Will Smith's, "Oh helllllll no." (My PC had learned about personal/professional conflicts of interest from Alistair, and she wasn't keen to sign up for more of that.) Velanna's response to her rejection, of course, is to threaten the Warden even when my PC offered to help her. So I rolled back before Silverite Mines and took the high justice route. (I had been on the fence about doing it anyway...the metagaming just pushed me over one side.)

In reading Velanna's endings, it doesn't seem like there's really a *good* epilogue for her, either. You might be able to sway her opinion on humans, but if you spare the Architect, she gets lured into the Deep Roads by her sister and disappears. That makes me nervous. (Doesn't the sister tell you in the jail that "It's not *me* he wants."? And then she obviously lies about where she got the key from. If you tell her Velanna's dead, she's bows her head in mourning to say, "So many terrible things have happened. I wish I'd never...") I just get the feeling that the sister's presence with the Architect, and Velanna's recruitment, were part of some plan.

And of course, if you don't spare the Architect, Velanna's epilogues go downhill from there, depending on your relationship with her prior to the decision.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 29 décembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

All good reasons for killing her out of hand/high justice. I've often wondered, too, about the Architect/Seranni connection, but because I've never brought her with me when sparing the architect, I've never ended up with her "good" ending.



velanna is dangerous because she's unstable and rather dim, but I've never really seen her as being any sort of wider threat, at least on her own. If the Architect had some bigger plan, perhaps. Maybe he wants to experriment and create a new kind of Broodmother to replace the failure of the Mother?

[Phoenix_Loftian]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Frankly yes. Admitting error but telling no one (and apparentlyh not acting on it) is not admitting error at all. If some one else doesn't hear it, it's not genuine.

So it's impossible to regret something and realize you're wrong unless you do a freaking confessional?

And the acts in the game would have been committed even had Velanna absolutely loved humans. The darkspawn convinced her that the people she was killing had her sister and she was trying to get her back. Since the humans had no idea about it, they couldn't do that.

Admitting you're wrong is a necessary step in redemption. She never does. She's too arrogant to do so even after she's murdered innocent people.

Velanna, had she actually considered humans, would have investigated further to find out which group of humans were responsible, would have found the man dying from DarkSpawn disease and would have come to the conclusion that the DarkSpawn were responsible based on the man's testimony.

Instead, she outright blames humans and starts murdering them off. Tell me, what would your reaction be in her 'just trying to find her sister' if they told you an innocent child had been in one of those Caravans and was killed due to her actions? More than one child? Do you see why people don't like her now?

Were there children in those caravans, she would have killed them. She ends-up murdering innocent merchants and their guards, of whom have families, and her response is essentially "so what?".

Also, yeah, I guess she's nothing like Loghain. At least Loghain had some remorse for his actions.

[Aigyl]

I have to admit I'm confused on how you get Velanna's good ending:

-If you spare the Architect she runs off into the Deep Roads and is never seen again.
-If you kill the Architect she never sees her sister again and blames the Warden for it.

How does one get the epilogue card where she saves the village exactly?


BTW, I would say that if she saved a village single-handedly from Darkspawn then that is redemption, even if she never confesses regret. Actions speak louder than words.

[Bigdoser]

I rather liked her and her epilouge slide made me like me even more. I don't know why people make a big deal out of velanna. Yes she killed humans without remorse but hey grey wardens are filled with murderers, king slayers and all sorts. This is just my opinion on this matter.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[IanPolaris]

Bigdoser wrote...

I rather liked her and her epilouge slide made me like me even more. I don't know why people make a big deal out of velanna. Yes she killed humans without remorse but hey grey wardens are filled with murderers, king slayers and all sorts. This is just my opinion on this matter.

For the most part, the even the criminals you see either in the Grey Wardens or workiing with them, know, understand and even regret (in some cases) what they've done.  Specifically look at Daveth, Sten, or even Duncan.

Velanna shows none of their redeeming qualities.  None of them.  In fact her very reason for wanting to be a Grey Warden is sheer selfishness which IMHO disqualifies her right there. 

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Admitting you're wrong is a necessary step in redemption. She never does. She's too arrogant to do so even after she's murdered innocent people.

Did you take her with you when finishing the Wending Woods quest? Her 'I don't want to talk about it' whenever you bring her name up to the merchant who asked you to go there struck me more as discomfort than arrogance or not caring. She seemed really awkward since she was tricked into killing innocent people and was aware of it. And why should admitting she was wrong in the presence of the all-powerful Warden be a necessary step in redemption?

Instead, she outright blames humans and starts murdering them off. Tell me, what would your reaction be in her 'just trying to find her sister' if they told you an innocent child had been in one of those Caravans and was killed due to her actions? More than one child? Do you see why people don't like her now?

Did I ever say that I didn't understand why people didn't like her? If nothing else, just the fact she bites your head off every time you talk to her is enough to not like her for. I never said that Velanna was RIGHT to do what she did so please stop putting words into my mouth. If every single caravan had an innocent child in it then my reaction would still be the same: Velanna didn't kill everyone because she hated humans necessarily. She did it because she freaked out when she believed her sister was missing. She did not handle her sister missing well, obviously, and she shouldn't have killed those people. I feel she does regret that she killed them once she found out that they were innocent (despite her hatred of humans) and you clearly feel she was supposed to wax poetic on how much she regretted killing them or it doesn't count.

[Sarah1281]

Velanna shows none of their redeeming qualities. None of them. In fact her very reason for wanting to be a Grey Warden is sheer selfishness which IMHO disqualifies her right there.

...Are you serious? Velanna wants to be a Grey Warden because she wants to find her sister. Alistair wanted to be a Grey Warden to escape the Chantry. Duncan was forced to be a Grey Warden. You yourself may be forced to become a GW though you can RP that you just want to help people and voluntarily chose this before circumstances forced your hand. Anders was forced to be one to save him from the templars. Nathaniel is either forced to be one or he begs you to let him be one because he can't think of anything else to do. Most of the Wardens you meet in the game do not have selfless reasons for wanting to become Wardens. Even Sigrun, who has already dedicated her life to destroying darkspawn, joins up with you because she seeks to avenge her fallen comrades. Say what you will about Velanna herself but since when has a selfish reason for joining the Wardens (and I think wanting to save her sister is a far less selfish reason than some of the others listed) ever a deterrent?

[IanPolaris]

Alistair was conscripted. He was thankful to be released from the chantry true, but Alistair also has a strong sense of obligation (and so for that matter does Duncan). I have yet to see an example of a Grey Warden that didn't (or didn't develope it) that turned out well given all they have to sacrifice for being who they are (Sofia Dryden being the prime example).



Going after her sister who VOLUNTARILY (lest we forget) decided to help darkspawn (the enemy of all other thinking peoples) and no other reasons counts as selfish in my book. She shows IMHO absolutely no redeeming qualifies and doesn't care which makes it even worse.



-Polaris