128 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Phoenix_Loftian wrote...

She's like Loghain. A racist, a unrepentant mass murderer, and too stubborn in her beliefs to see past their own racism.
Aside from the obvious physical differences, her ideology is basically like Loghain's. "Humans/Orlesians are always the enemy!"

I'll concede to the fact that Loghain at least faces his death (regardless of if via sacrifice against the Archdemon or killed in the Landsmeet) with his head held high and without any complaints.
 

She is nothing like Loghain, at least not when it comes to what you describe. Loghain is neither a racist nor an unrepentant mass murderer. Aside from the fact that Loghain shows a great deal of remorse once beaten and after being recruited, his distrust of Orlesians is well founded and hardly surprising. Read the books to find out why, as I won't spoil it here.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

Ugh... this argument again.

Velanna *does* show remorse, both in dialogue with her, and in conversations with other companions.

When?  She is given multiple opportunities to do just that no only with you but in conversations with Justice, Anders, and even Nate.  She never moves a milimeter off the position that slaughtering the humans was totally justified.

She does say that she's sorry, but only if you get her approval high enough to trigger the dialogue.  I made a video of the dialogue but haven't uploaded it yet, I'll do that tonight if I think of it.

[ArawnNox]

As an outside observer in this thread (and someone who hasn't played Awakenings) it sounds to me like Velanna has more in common with Zathurian than Loghain. Just my two bits.

[Eber]

I see regret and a will to change in all of Velanna's dialogue. When Nathaniel asks her how she feels knowing that she murdered all those people because she was too arrogant to check her facts and she responds "warm and fuzzy" it seems to me she does so because a truthful response would be too difficult so instead she makes a joke and choses to ignore the question. Nathaniel understands and responds in kind with a likewise inappropriate joke.

Nathaniel: You're a terrible person. And your ears are clownish.
Velanna: What? Who's juvenile now?

The very next conversation between them reads:

Velanna: I may have misjudged you a little.
Nathaniel: Just a little?
Velanna: I sometimes paint all humans with the same brush.

Then there are little things like the approval you get if you tell her former clan that she has changed, no less than six points. This tells me that she wants to change, else she should be offended by the notion that she has rather than approve. Similary there is the disapproval you get if you tell her she would have made a good keeper. This suggests that she knows her aggressive behavior was not wise. She knows she would have made a terrible keeper. I'd like to especially point out the three approval points you get in the Andraste conversation if you opt for the line below.

Velanna: People with power never fail to abuse it. Even those with good intentions.
Warden: And wouldn’t it be the same if the Dalish had power?

This strongly suggests that she understands that the problem is not so much about race as it is about conflicting interests. If she was a racist she would disapprove of the notion that her people could ever be the same as todays oppressors not approve.

Modifié par Eber, 21 janvier 2011 - 03:33 .

[IanPolaris]

Eber,



I've tried Velanna several times including getting her approval into the 90s and she never, EVER admits wrongdoing or guilt for her actions in the Wending woods either to my warden or in party banter which to me marks her as an unrepentant mass murderer. Even my Dalish Characters have zero problems giving her the stabbity - stab treatment especially given her totally self-cenered motives for wanting to be a Grey Warden. Te paraphrase the comedian Will Smith, that's not just a "no" but a "Heelll NO!"



-Polaris



-Polaris

[Eber]

I've never had her overtly express she was in the wrong either but everything suggests she knows she was and to me that is enough. I do not expect people to admit they are wrong. I know that is hard to do, especially if like Velanna you are stubborn. Justice is pretty close to getting a confession of guilt out of her though in that he has her asking for a way to make amends.

Justice: This thing you did, the murders of those men in the forest...
Velanna: What of it?
Justice: What you did was wrong. You must make amends.
Velanna: I wouldn't expect that to occur anytime soon.

A few conversations later (to read the whole thing click here):

Velanna: What sort of atonement would be appropriate?
Justice: You have reconsidered, then?
Velanna: I am simply curious to hear what you think would be suitable.
Justice: Teach them. Show these humans what they are so carelessly destroying.
Velanna: And if they do not listen?
Justice: Then you have done what you could.
Velanna: It's... worth thinking about.

Modifié par Eber, 21 janvier 2011 - 03:59 .

[IanPolaris]

Eber,



It's not enough to show remorse. Not by a long mark. Velanna could have taken a short 10 minute walk and figured out for herself that she was wrong (indeed the Architect in his notes is astonished that she was taken in by such a simple ruse). OGHREN of all people figures out her story has more holes than swiss cheese in 10 SECONDS!



No Velanna deserves to die especially because she shows absolutely no contrition and remorse on the spot when she is proven to be wrong....and she doesn't budge one milimeter from that position either. I have zero sympathy for her...even (sometimes especially!) if I am playing a Dalish.



Velanna gives all Dalish a bad name.



-Polaris

[Addai]

Yeah my Dalish rogue helped her, but when I played a Dalish mage I figured she wanted to drop kick Velanna back to the creators. I giggled over the epilogue where it said they were often heard quarreling in the Keep.



Catfight!

[HolyAvenger]

She does save the human village in the epilogue (even if you kill the architect), so there is some redemption.

[Sabariel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

Ugh... this argument again.

Velanna *does* show remorse, both in dialogue with her, and in conversations with other companions.

When?  She is given multiple opportunities to do just that no only with you but in conversations with Justice, Anders, and even Nate.  She never moves a milimeter off the position that slaughtering the humans was totally justified.

She *tries* to stick to her guns, but is consistently shown the error of her ways. Her epilogue may or may not be a complete justification of showing her mercy, but either way, she begins to change her views.

I've never seen it (or have many others).

This is simply a prejudicial argument.

She is no different from the "unrepentent" mass murderer named Sten or Zevran.

Wrong.  Sten openly admits his guilt and wishes to atone.  As for Zev, he is an assassin, not a mass murderer (yes there is a difference) and he does care.  He also has the attitude that there are very few true innocents.  If you think Velanna is anything like Zev, then with all due respect you haven't played through with both of them.  Night and day.  Zev even admits he sins and prays to the Maker every day for forgiveness.  It never even occures to Velanna that she might be wrong let alone pray for forgiveness.

-Polaris

I very much doubt Zevran was being serious when he said he prayed to the Maker daily. He was just yanking Alistair's chain. However, I do not doubt that Zevran felt a measure of regret over his "assassiny" ways.

[IanPolaris]

HolyAvenger wrote...

She does save the human village in the epilogue (even if you kill the architect), so there is some redemption.

Only if you take her with you and only if her approval is sky high.  Otherwise she dissapears without a trace....and in any event, too little, too late IMO.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Ok, I remembered the dialogue wrong.  She doesn't say anything about regretting the death of the humans, only about leaving her clan and dissing her keeper.  Maybe it's better that the writers didn't make her a pool of regret in so short a time,  just as there's no redeeming Oghren.  But that doesn't change how she was written- as a homicidal b*tch.

I also had her approval at 100 and didn't get an epilogue about her saving a village.  I've never gotten that epilogue, in fact.

[HolyAvenger]

IanPolaris wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

She does save the human village in the epilogue (even if you kill the architect), so there is some redemption.

Only if you take her with you and only if her approval is sky high.  Otherwise she dissapears without a trace....and in any event, too little, too late IMO.

-Polaris

That's fair enough, far be it from me to argue about someone else's RP-choices. For my canon Warden, who saved everyone he could, allowing Velanna another choice at redemption was a no-brainer.

[Eber]

IanPolaris wrote...

Eber,

It's not enough to show remorse. Not by a long mark. Velanna could have taken a short 10 minute walk and figured out for herself that she was wrong (indeed the Architect in his notes is astonished that she was taken in by such a simple ruse). OGHREN of all people figures out her story has more holes than swiss cheese in 10 SECONDS!

No Velanna deserves to die especially because she shows absolutely no contrition and remorse on the spot when she is proven to be wrong....and she doesn't budge one milimeter from that position either. I have zero sympathy for her...even (sometimes especially!) if I am playing a Dalish.

Velanna gives all Dalish a bad name.

-Polaris

What holes are you talking about? Velanna's story is a simple one hardly full of holes. The only curious thing I recall is the weapons left behind and how else is she to explain them? Plotting darkspawn did it?

[Addai]

Sabariel wrote...

I very much doubt Zevran was being serious when he said he prayed to the Maker daily. He was just yanking Alistair's chain. However, I do not doubt that Zevran felt a measure of regret over his "assassiny" ways.

I don't doubt it.  He said he went to the Chantry often as a child.  I put it down to the sort of mystical devotion that you associate with mafia types who are good Catholics, that sort of thing.

[Addai]

Eber wrote...

What holes are you talking about? Velanna's story is a simple one hardly full of holes. The only curious thing I recall is the weapons left behind and how else is she to explain them? Plotting darkspawn did it?

She says herself that she wondered why anyone would leave the weapons there.

At any rate, she knows very well that the passing merchant caravans aren't responsible.  She's a terrorist, plain and simple.

[IanPolaris]

Eber wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Eber,

It's not enough to show remorse. Not by a long mark. Velanna could have taken a short 10 minute walk and figured out for herself that she was wrong (indeed the Architect in his notes is astonished that she was taken in by such a simple ruse). OGHREN of all people figures out her story has more holes than swiss cheese in 10 SECONDS!

No Velanna deserves to die especially because she shows absolutely no contrition and remorse on the spot when she is proven to be wrong....and she doesn't budge one milimeter from that position either. I have zero sympathy for her...even (sometimes especially!) if I am playing a Dalish.

Velanna gives all Dalish a bad name.

-Polaris

What holes are you talking about? Velanna's story is a simple one hardly full of holes. The only curious thing I recall is the weapons left behind and how else is she to explain them? Plotting darkspawn did it?

Oh Geez where do we start.  Take Oghren with you to the wending woods and he sees through it in ten seconds flat.  Let's start with the weapons without bodies.  Let's then go to the pit full of human bodies but stripped of weapons and armor.  Let's not forget the SURVIVOR not ten minutes away who practically begs to tell his story knowing he is soon to perish from darkspawn taint. 

That's before even bothering to capture and interrogate a few humans (well within the capabilities of a powerful keeper mage), examining the wounds, etc etc.

The only way for Velanna not to have realized she was badly mistaken was to be so sure of herself and so arrogant that she never bothered to look....and that means she mertis death from stupidity alone.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Eber wrote...

What holes are you talking about? Velanna's story is a simple one hardly full of holes. The only curious thing I recall is the weapons left behind and how else is she to explain them? Plotting darkspawn did it?

She says herself that she wondered why anyone would leave the weapons there.

At any rate, she knows very well that the passing merchant caravans aren't responsible.  She's a terrorist, plain and simple.

Exactly, and terrorists deserve one punishment especially those that are dumb enough to inflict terror on the WRONG TARGET and never admit or aknowledge it. 

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

Ok, I remembered the dialogue wrong.  She doesn't say anything about regretting the death of the humans, only about leaving her clan and dissing her keeper.  Maybe it's better that the writers didn't make her a pool of regret in so short a time,  just as there's no redeeming Oghren.  But that doesn't change how she was written- as a homicidal b*tch.

I also had her approval at 100 and didn't get an epilogue about her saving a village.  I've never gotten that epilogue, in fact.

It showed up for me when I did her personal quest and spared the Architect.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[Eber]

IanPolaris wrote...

Oh Geez where do we start.  Take Oghren with you to the wending woods and he sees through it in ten seconds flat.  Let's start with the weapons without bodies.  Let's then go to the pit full of human bodies but stripped of weapons and armor.  Let's not forget the SURVIVOR not ten minutes away who practically begs to tell his story knowing he is soon to perish from darkspawn taint. 

That's before even bothering to capture and interrogate a few humans (well within the capabilities of a powerful keeper mage), examining the wounds, etc etc.

The only way for Velanna not to have realized she was badly mistaken was to be so sure of herself and so arrogant that she never bothered to look....and that means she mertis death from stupidity alone.

-Polaris

Those are not holes in Velanna's story. That's things that could have been done to learn the truth and things whose discovery would have helped Velanna learn the truth. You should keep in mind that Velanna does not have plotmarkers and point of interests flags to help her find her way through the forrest that is much larger than the ingame area could have the player belive. Still she could have made a more thorough investigation and that much she does admit. 

I wanted revenge. I didn't take the time to think. Mythal have mercy, what if it's too late.

Modifié par Eber, 21 janvier 2011 - 05:24 .

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...
I also had her approval at 100 and didn't get an epilogue about her saving a village.  I've never gotten that epilogue, in fact.

You need to be at friendly status AND spare the Architect.

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I also had her approval at 100 and didn't get an epilogue about her saving a village.  I've never gotten that epilogue, in fact.

You need to be at friendly status AND spare the Architect.

Oh, right.  I just can't see my way to do that.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I also had her approval at 100 and didn't get an epilogue about her saving a village.  I've never gotten that epilogue, in fact.

You need to be at friendly status AND spare the Architect.

Oh, right.  I just can't see my way to do that.

Me neither. 

-Polaris

[Face of Evil]

I do not hate Velanna for two reasons:



1) She may have killed those people, but the true fault lies with the darkspawn, especially the Architect and his cronies. They framed the humans for the massacre of the Dalish for no reason except ****s and giggles.



2) I truly believe that she regrets her actions. And as a Warden, she has atoned for her crimes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
She's a terrorist, plain and simple.

Meeh, terrorism generally implies doing acts of terror for a political goal / agenda (unless you want to extend the definition, which would include probably most acts of war and other things not normally covered by the modern definition).
Her primary motive here seems to be about saving her sister, rather than serving a political purpose. It could be that she was also waging her private war aginast humans at the same time, in which case the wording might be more pertinent.

That being said, she isn't bright no. Way too stuborn and narrow minded for her own good. And almost bordering on being crazy (which I sometimes find cute...).   So I can understand perfectly those who kill her / not like her.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:11 .