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I ended-up really hating Velanna...


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#101
Zjarcal

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Face of Evil wrote...

I do not hate Velanna for two reasons:

1) She may have killed those people, but the true fault lies with the darkspawn, especially the Architect and his cronies. They framed the humans for the massacre of the Dalish for no reason except ****s and giggles.

2) I truly believe that she regrets her actions. And as a Warden, she has atoned for her crimes.


I agree.

She's hardly my favorite companion, but I don't share the hatred some people have for her. It may be difficult to get her to express her regretfulness, but the fact that it is possible for her to do it makes it hard for me to hate her.

@KoP:

Hehe, I never would've expected you to find craziness cute (even if it's just sometimes).

#102
IanPolaris

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Face of Evil wrote...

I do not hate Velanna for two reasons:

1) She may have killed those people, but the true fault lies with the darkspawn, especially the Architect and his cronies. They framed the humans for the massacre of the Dalish for no reason except ****s and giggles.


Yes and it's one more reason (not that I needed any) why I DON'T spare the architect.  His people did it for giggles and the architect supervised and approved it all the way down the line.  That doesn't excuse Velanna in the slightest.

2) I truly believe that she regrets her actions. And as a Warden, she has atoned for her crimes.


I see no evidence of that (either one).  She wants to be a warden so she can track down her sister.  She doesn't give a rat's posterior about anything else and given that her sister joined the Darkspawn voluntarily.......

-Polaris

#103
KnightofPhoenix

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Zjarcal wrote...
@KoP:

Hehe, I never would've expected you to find craziness cute (even if it's just sometimes).


I find it cute as long as it's far away from me!

On a serious note, the fact that she doesn't disaprove when we say that the elves would have been as "bad" as humans and almost very reluctantly accepting it, makes me respect her a bit and sparing her becomes worth it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:21 .


#104
IanPolaris

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
She's a terrorist, plain and simple.


Meeh, terrorism generally implies doing acts of terror for a political goal / agenda (unless you want to extend the definition, which would include probably most acts of war and other things not normally covered by the modern definition).
Her primary motive here seems to be about saving her sister, rather than serving a political purpose. It could be that she was also waging her private war aginast humans at the same time, in which case the wording might be more pertinent.


Based on the conversatins with her former clan and why she was exiled, I think it's nearly certain that Velanna was in fact continuing her own private war against humans....and that sort of thing gives all Dalish a bad name and the Dalish can't afford to have such strife with their human neighors as 4 out of 5 Keepers would surely agree (shut up Zathrien!)

-Polaris

#105
KnightofPhoenix

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I still do not understand (or remember?) the exact circumstances of her exile. She hated humans more than the others yes. But was she advocating attacks on human civilians? Armed resistance? Aggressive action or self defense?

#106
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I still do not understand (or remember?) the exact circumstances of her exile. She hated humans more than the others yes. But was she advocating attacks on human civilians? Armed resistance? Aggressive action or self defense?

If you watch the video I linked above, she explains it.  Humans were going to burn the forest to chase her clan away, her keeper wanted to leave, Velanna wanted to fight back.  She and several others left, all of whom died except her and her sister.

#107
KnightofPhoenix

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Well, I can understand her. Unwise and reckless, but understandable. Did she specify that she intends to target human civilians to keep them from burning forests? Eco-terrorism?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .


#108
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
She's a terrorist, plain and simple.


Meeh, terrorism generally implies doing acts of terror for a political goal / agenda (unless you want to extend the definition, which would include probably most acts of war and other things not normally covered by the modern definition).
Her primary motive here seems to be about saving her sister, rather than serving a political purpose. It could be that she was also waging her private war aginast humans at the same time, in which case the wording might be more pertinent.

That being said, she isn't bright no. Way too stuborn and narrow minded for her own good. And almost bordering on being crazy (which I sometimes find cute...).   So I can understand perfectly those who kill her / not like her.



She is using terror- massive, random attacks on whatever humans or elves happen by and get in her way- to try to force whoever took her sister (as she believes) to give her up.  She knows those people aren't responsible, she just wants to terrorize enough humans that she can either die along with the others she led into exile or she gets her sister back.

#109
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well, I can understand her. Unwise and reckless, but understandable. Did she specify that she intends to target human civilians to keep them from burning forests? Eco-terrorism?

No, she just wants to attack the villagers who were threatening her clan.  Understandable as it is, no Dalish clan can afford to escalate armed conflict with human villages.  It would only bring the local militias down on them.

#110
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...
She is using terror- massive, random attacks on whatever humans or elves happen by and get in her way- to try to force whoever took her sister (as she believes) to give her up.  She knows those people aren't responsible, she just wants to terrorize enough humans that she can either die along with the others she led into exile or she gets her sister back.


This is not necessarily a political goal. That's extending the modern definition of terrorism, which I don't mind, but that will mean including a lot of thigns in that category.

Now if she was doing this also to wage her private war on humans, then yes. That's a political goal and calling her a terrorist (as an objective definition devoid of ethical judgements) would be fair.  

#111
HolyAvenger

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Addai67 wrote...
She is using terror- massive, random attacks on whatever humans or elves happen by and get in her way- to try to force whoever took her sister (as she believes) to give her up.  She knows those people aren't responsible, she just wants to terrorize enough humans that she can either die along with the others she led into exile or she gets her sister back.


My take on this during Awakenings was that she'd gone mad with grief and rage and was just lashing out whoever was within range. She wasn't in her right mind, and the Warden brings her sort-of back to sanity and begins the healing process, which continues after with the discussions regarding the elves, elven history etc.

#112
Sabariel

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Addai67 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

I very much doubt Zevran was being serious when he said he prayed to the Maker daily. He was just yanking Alistair's chain. However, I do not doubt that Zevran felt a measure of regret over his "assassiny" ways.

I don't doubt it.  He said he went to the Chantry often as a child.  I put it down to the sort of mystical devotion that you associate with mafia types who are good Catholics, that sort of thing.


Like the Mafioso, I doubt Zevran feels a deep enough regret to pray every day as he claimed (if at all). Not to mention his tone of voice throughout the entire conversation with Alistair was not all that serious.

Modifié par Sabariel, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:50 .


#113
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
She's a terrorist, plain and simple.


Meeh, terrorism generally implies doing acts of terror for a political goal / agenda (unless you want to extend the definition, which would include probably most acts of war and other things not normally covered by the modern definition).
Her primary motive here seems to be about saving her sister, rather than serving a political purpose. It could be that she was also waging her private war aginast humans at the same time, in which case the wording might be more pertinent.

That being said, she isn't bright no. Way too stuborn and narrow minded for her own good. And almost bordering on being crazy (which I sometimes find cute...).   So I can understand perfectly those who kill her / not like her.


(husband)

Would you prefer anti-human spree killer?  :)

Seriously, she is using magic for what we call today "shock and awe", making demands and trying to get her way.   I guess if you want to be ultra exact, you could call her a terror using extortionist, but terrorist is much easier.

#114
Sjofn

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All I know is, my two Dalish wardens were very much this isn't helping, stop with the crazy with regards to her. My male Dalish was also sad the first lady elf he gets to recruit is half-harpy. I think he went out for coffee with the Dalish lady from Witch Hunt, though. Morrigan who, baby?

#115
Stoomkal

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This is a BS argument...



When does Sten show any real remorse for his actions? Apparently, talking in an emotionally distressed voice makes you a "terrorist", whilst describing things in a male monotone is... um, okay?

#116
IanPolaris

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Stoomkal wrote...

This is a BS argument...

When does Sten show any real remorse for his actions? Apparently, talking in an emotionally distressed voice makes you a "terrorist", whilst describing things in a male monotone is... um, okay?


He tells you he does not once but repeatedly.  He never once regards his actions towards the farmhold as defensible.

-Polaris

#117
KnightofPhoenix

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It's debatable whether Sten was regretful towards losing control, or killing the family. Or both. I think it's both, but he seems to stress that an uncontrolled mind is very dangerous for a soldier and so maybe that's what he regrets more.

#118
Zjarcal

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Yeah, Sten never defends his actions and always makes it clear he deserved punishment for them. Take him to the Guardian at the Gauntlet and see his response to the Guardian's question.

"I have never denied that I failed"

EDIT: 

@KoP

I also think it's both, though I also agree that more than anything he regrets the way he acted, while the actual death of the family is a somewhat secondary regret (but still a regret).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 22 janvier 2011 - 03:47 .


#119
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's debatable whether Sten was regretful towards losing control, or killing the family. Or both. I think it's both, but he seems to stress that an uncontrolled mind is very dangerous for a soldier and so maybe that's what he regrets more.

But if you say "that's terrible," he agrees with you, and he brings up the children himself.  Plus he waited for the authorities to take him.  That right there shows a remorse that Velanna never even approaches.

#120
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's debatable whether Sten was regretful towards losing control, or killing the family. Or both. I think it's both, but he seems to stress that an uncontrolled mind is very dangerous for a soldier and so maybe that's what he regrets more.

But if you say "that's terrible," he agrees with you, and he brings up the children himself.  Plus he waited for the authorities to take him.  That right there shows a remorse that Velanna never even approaches.


When you ask him why he allowed himself to be caged, he says a loose mind is dangerous, which kind of implies that he's ashamed to have lost it. And also because he knows there is nothing for him now, he doesn't have his sword, he would be killed on sight.

But yes, he doesn't run away or hide his culpability, Velanna does. Absolutely.
And when you recruit him, he says it will be his repentance.

#121
Addai

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He has a fatalistic worldview- as much as I understand the Qun, which isn't much- so he's probably not as broken up by dead children in the same way others would be. However within his own cultural milieu he certainly shows remorse and takes responsibility for his actions.

#122
Dean_the_Young

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
She's a terrorist, plain and simple.


Meeh, terrorism generally implies doing acts of terror for a political goal / agenda (unless you want to extend the definition, which would include probably most acts of war and other things not normally covered by the modern definition).
Her primary motive here seems to be about saving her sister, rather than serving a political purpose. It could be that she was also waging her private war aginast humans at the same time, in which case the wording might be more pertinent.

That being said, she isn't bright no. Way too stuborn and narrow minded for her own good. And almost bordering on being crazy (which I sometimes find cute...).   So I can understand perfectly those who kill her / not like her.

In my experience, intelligence and being broad-minded are two entirely separate things. There have been entire movements built on illogical presumptions, but were capable of pursuing them in very intelligent, sophisticated ways. (The clash of communist economic theory, which was a large part of the basis of Soveit ideology, vis a vis their military/scientific advancements in a number of fields. One was bunk, the other was not.)

I wouldn't in the least deny that Velanna is narrow-minded, or at the very least not self-critical, but unlike many others (even those far more broad minded), she isn't reactionary when these presumptions are changed, doesn't deny them and refuse to accept them when pointed out. She might not ask the right questions herself, but when they are asked of her she's honest enough not to ignore them.

She can change her views, unpleasant as it may be, and she doesn't do so grudgingly. It's far more than a lot of people ever do.

#123
KnightofPhoenix

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The "bright" comment was mostly due to her not stopping and thinking at the scene of the crime, and perhaps even investigating near her camp to find a pit filled with human corpses. But I realize that it may not be entirely her fault (writing takes the blame).

I do recall her opening up a bit and like I said before, the fact that she doesn't disapprove and quasi-agrees with the statement that the elves would have been no different than humans were they capable, is something I respect. I found that to be relatively open-minded. Unless of course deep down she is saying that humans deserve to be enslaved.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 janvier 2011 - 03:42 .


#124
Phoenix_Loftian

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She doesn't really agree with it. You just raise her heart points, she's actually too proud to admit you have a point and denies it even though she knows you're pointing out something truthful.

#125
Lightpanda

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

velanna is dangerous because she's unstable and rather dim, but I've never really seen her as being any sort of wider threat, at least on her own. If the Architect had some bigger plan, perhaps. Maybe he wants to experriment and create a new kind of Broodmother to replace the failure of the Mother?


The Mother did look like a smoosh of Morrigan / Flemeth...