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[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So who built it? Batarians? Rachni? Turians?

And when? Until about 3K years ago there weren't sufficiently advanced races to discover the Citadel. Yet it is strongly implied that the Omega's age is over that, and the mysterious coming and going factions only made adjustments to it, until a more recent point of reference (around the Krogan Rebellions) since when it's been populated for good.

EDIT:

This is how Drew Karpyshyn introduced the Omega in Ascension, Ch. 4.:

"It's exact age was unknown, although everyone agreed the station had originally been built by the Protheans before they dissapeared. However, nobody agree on which had been the first species to resettle it once the Protheans were mysterirously wiped out."

Actually, the excerpt from Retribution that GnawLF pasted heavily implies that Omega was a Reaper construct, so I'll have to concede that to you. (You could've gotten more points if you brought that tidbit into attention yourself, though.)

GnawLF wrote...

This is a quote from the book. Grayson, controlled by Reapers through extensive implants, docks at Omega:

"  
He would have made even better time if he wasn't constantly slowing
down to study various structural and architectural features of the
station. He had seen it all before, of course, but he felt like he was
looking at it through fresh eyes; taking every detail and comparing it
against some half-remembered blueprint he didn't actually ever remember
seeing.
      The cycle continues. Each civilization brings change, yet the works of our kind are eternal.
    
Omega was known for the haphazard, piecemeal way it had been
constructed. Most believed that it had been carved from the heart of an
ancient asteroid by the Protheans eons ago, but over the centuries any
number of species had left their mark on it. Its discordant style gave
it an almost random feel. And though it had never bothered him before,
for some reason he now found the chaos offensive on a deep philosophical
level.
     But while the overall effect filled him with revulsion,
each individual element he examined during his trek cause him to react
with amusement. It remninded him of the ant farm he had as a child. The
insects worked with slavish dedication to build their netowrk of
tunnels, shaping and altering the tine glass case that encompassed the
entirity of their existence. He had observed them though the glass as
they worked, industrious and relentless, completely oblivious of their
own insignificance in the grand design of the universe."

Btw, Italicized lines denote the mental messages/mind control from/of the Reapers.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 31 décembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So who built it? Batarians? Rachni? Turians?

And when? Until about 3K years ago there weren't sufficiently advanced races to discover the Citadel. Yet it is strongly implied that the Omega's age is over that, and the mysterious coming and going factions only made adjustments to it, until a more recent point of reference (around the Krogan Rebellions) since when it's been populated for good.

EDIT:

This is how Drew Karpyshyn introduced the Omega in Ascension, Ch. 4.:

"It's exact age was unknown, although everyone agreed the station had originally been built by the Protheans before they dissapeared. However, nobody agree on which had been the first species to resettle it once the Protheans were mysterirously wiped out."

Actually, the excerpt from Retribution that GnawLF pasted heavily implies that Omega was a Reaper construct, so I'll have to concede that to you. (You could've gotten more points if you brought that tidbit into attention yourself, though.)

GnawLF wrote...

This is a quote from the book. Grayson, controlled by Reapers through extensive implants, docks at Omega:

"  
He would have made even better time if he wasn't constantly slowing  down to study various structural and architectural features of the  station. He had seen it all before, of course, but he felt like he was  looking at it through fresh eyes; taking every detail and comparing it  against some half-remembered blueprint he didn't actually ever remember  seeing.
      The cycle continues. Each civilization brings change, yet the works of our kind are eternal.
    
Omega was known for the haphazard, piecemeal way it had been  constructed. Most believed that it had been carved from the heart of an  ancient asteroid by the Protheans eons ago, but over the centuries any  number of species had left their mark on it. Its discordant style gave  it an almost random feel. And though it had never bothered him before,  for some reason he now found the chaos offensive on a deep philosophical
level.
     But while the overall effect filled him with revulsion,  each individual element he examined during his trek cause him to react  with amusement. It remninded him of the ant farm he had as a child. The  insects worked with slavish dedication to build their netowrk of  tunnels, shaping and altering the tine glass case that encompassed the
entirity of their existence. He had observed them though the glass as  they worked, industrious and relentless, completely oblivious of their  own insignificance in the grand design of the universe."

Btw, Italicized lines denote the mental messages/mind control from/of the Reapers.

Holy F...!!! How could have I overlooked this part??? Shame on me!

[double headdesk]

Actually, I was sure of it ever since I saw the lenght of the Omega in its description, but this confirms it 100%.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 décembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

azerSheppard wrote...

The codex is not all knowing or "correct".

It's generally written in the perspective of the current galactic civilizations. With the addition of some "pages" with perspectives of certain ME characters, and their added secrets.

For instance, the codex, before unlocking Zaeeds secret page, says the Blue Suns was created by Turians, or Batarians. After unlocking Zaeeds secret, it say Vido and Zaeed where the creators of the Blue Suns.

The ME1 Codex is a standard issue Alliance's handbook for its emplyees, like Cpl. Richard L. Jenkins.

The ME2 Codex is the same document, expanded by Cerberus for use by its operatives.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Harbinger: ~"Your worlds will become our laboratories"

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, I was sure of it ever since I saw the lenght of the Omega in its description, but this confirms it 100%.

Still, we don't have much insight into what its original function was. Could be a Reaper factory like you said, but I kinda doubt that, since they'd probably prefer having such a facility in the security of the galactic core's black holes beyond the Omega-4 Relay. Could be a "failsafe" dark space relay, though that would make ME1's plot make even less sense (with the established information we have, anyway), and the shape of the station doesn't really point towards that, either.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 31 décembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, I was sure of it ever since I saw the lenght of the Omega in its description, but this confirms it 100%.

Still, we don't have much insight into what its original function was. Could be a Reaper factory like you said, but I kinda doubt that, since they'd probably prefer having such a facility in the security of the galactic core's black holes beyond the Omega-4 Relay. Could be a "failsafe" dark space relay, though that would make ME1's plot make even less sense (with the established information we have, anyway).

Well, my first thought was that the Citadel and Omega constitute some kind of a pair, a "coupling", necessary for the Reapers' recall, warp, wormhole, you call it.

But since then I became quite certain that ME1's plot was not exactly what it seemed to be anyway, so the Omega may as well serve any purpose of the Reapers, while the Citadel may actually be peripheral to their plans, or maybe even a threat, which was the reason why Sovereign, a "rogue" Reaper, tried to acquire it, which was foiled in part thanks to Vigil, an agent of the "orthodox" Harbinger's Reapers.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

... while the Citadel may actually be peripheral to their plans, or maybe even a threat, which wsa the reason why Sovereign, a "rogue" Reaper, tried to acquire it, which was foiled in part thanks to Vigil, an agent of the "orthdox" Harbinger's Reapers.

"[The Protheans] did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them, the legacy of my kind." Can't be so sure about the Citadel being a threat to the Reapers, given that.

On a side note, I suddenly just had a random cool/lame idea on why Sovereign looked like it was "shutting down" (and subsequently got blown up) after the death of the Saren husk. Maybe it "uploaded" itself to the Citadel, leaving behind its Space Cthulhu shell as an, er, shell. Not sure what mechanism would allow for that to work, or why it would do that, but whatever; I'm just throwing it out there. It's a better explanation than Sovereign becoming vulnerable for No Apparent Reason™ at least. Doesn't explain why Harbinger suddenly gets its fetish for Shepard's body after ME1, though, if what he did was actually entirely inconsequential.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:44 .

[Vaenier]

Why was Omega retconned? It went from failed prothean mining operation that later was a successful mining operation by this generation that turned into a colony in the hollowed out core. Then it became a successful prothean mining operation and colony... why?

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

... while the Citadel may actually be peripheral to their plans, or maybe even a threat, which wsa the reason why Sovereign, a "rogue" Reaper, tried to acquire it, which was foiled in part thanks to Vigil, an agent of the "orthdox" Harbinger's Reapers.

"[The Protheans] did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them, the legacy of my kind." Can't be so sure about the Citadel being a threat to the Reapers, given that.

On a side note, I suddenly just had a random cool/lame idea on why Sovereign looked like he was "shutting down" (and subsequently got blown up) after the death of the Saren husk. Maybe he "uploaded" himself to the Citadel. Not sure what mechanism would allow for that to work, or why it would do that, but whatever; I'm just throwing it out there.

Similar thought occured to me as well. I believe, half way through the "Vigil is lying" thread, I said that the "datafile" could be some kind of Sovereign's back-up file. Hence, all the lying -- to trick Shepard into uploading it even in case the assault fails and Sovereign is destroyed on its way to the Ciatdel.

[Fixers0]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, I was sure of it ever since I saw the lenght of the Omega in its description, but this confirms it 100%.

Still, we don't have much insight into what its original function was. Could be a Reaper factory like you said, but I kinda doubt that, since they'd probably prefer having such a facility in the security of the galactic core's black holes beyond the Omega-4 Relay. Could be a "failsafe" dark space relay, though that would make ME1's plot make even less sense (with the established information we have, anyway).

Well, my first thought was that the Citadel and Omega constitute some kind of a pair, a "coupling", necessary for the Reapers' recall, warp, wormhole, you call it.

But since then I became quite certain that ME1's plot was not exactly what it seemed to be anyway, so the Omega may as well serve any purpose of the Reapers, while the Citadel may actually be peripheral to their plans, or maybe even a threat, which wsa the reason why Sovereign, a "rogue" Reaper, tried to acquire it, which was foiled in part thanks to Vigil, an agent of the "orthdox" Harbinger's Reapers.

oh Come on  you don't believe that crap don't you, i mean this is totaly the opposite of the whole story behind Mass effect, why are you trying to bring down the whole game with some kind crazy  reverse theory.
Why can't you just accept the plot given by Bioware, do you hate it so much?

Modifié par Fixers0, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Vaenier wrote...

Why was Omega retconned? It went from failed prothean mining operation that later was a successful mining operation by this generation that turned into a colony in the hollowed out core. Then it became a successful prothean mining operation and colony... why?

It wasn't retconned. As I pointed out at the top of Page 3 of this thread, it was introduced in Ascension (pre-ME2) as allegedly built by the Protheans. Key word: "allegedly".

I am 100% certain that all that happened 50K years back, the roles of the Reapers, Sovereign, Harbinger, Protheans, Collectors, Vigil, Citadel, Omega, Ilos and even the "beings of light" if they are to play a role, and the way the Reapers are going to get pawned in ME3 -- all that was written in stone before ME1 was released and is not subject to change.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[The Smoking Man]

Fixers0 wrote...

do you it so much?

Do you it so much?!/1/??!/11111 I accidentally it so much!

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It wasn't retconned. As I pointed out at the top of Page 3 of this thread, it was introduced in Ascension (pre-ME2) as allegedly built by the Protheans. Key word: "allegedly".

The point he was making didn't have to do with the attribution to the Protheans, but how the lore keeps flip-flopping between whether it was considered a successful or an unsuccessful mining operation, etc.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:59 .

[Vaenier]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

do you it so much?

Do you it so much?!/1/??!/11111 I accidentally it so much!

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It wasn't retconned. As I pointed out at the top of Page 3 of this thread, it was introduced in Ascension (pre-ME2) as allegedly built by the Protheans. Key word: "allegedly".

The point he was making didn't have to do with the attribution to the Protheans, but how the lore keeps flip-flopping between whether it was considered a successful or an unsuccessful mining operation, etc.

First it says they could not get through crust and failed and just left. Later on a giant space rock hit it and broke it open, revealing its candy, so this generation of meatsacks mined it and build the entire structure that is omega.

Then they change it so that it was always cracked open, and the structure was already there, mostly built by past dead civilizations...

[Zulu_DFA]

Vaenier wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

do you it so much?

Do you it so much?!/1/??!/11111 I accidentally it so much!

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It wasn't retconned. As I pointed out at the top of Page 3 of this thread, it was introduced in Ascension (pre-ME2) as allegedly built by the Protheans. Key word: "allegedly".

The point he was making didn't have to do with the attribution to the Protheans, but how the lore keeps flip-flopping between whether it was considered a successful or an unsuccessful mining operation, etc.

First it says they could not get through crust and failed and just left. Later on a giant space rock hit it and broke it open, revealing its candy, so this generation of meatsacks mined it and build the entire structure that is omega.

Then they change it so that it was always cracked open, and the structure was already there, mostly built by past dead civilizations...

The Omega is a Tortuga in space, so the kind of low life that inhabits it can't have a straight account of its history in the first place. It's more like legends or something. It's clear that BioWare intentionally puts a lot of misleading info all over the game, to make sure there is a lot of truth to be revealed later...

The only problem is that very often in unimportant areas it's indeed crappy writhing that takes place, which only adds to the confusion when it comes to the real "legends" and "revelations".

[Vaenier]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Omega is a Tortuga in space, so the kind of low life that inhabits it can't have a straight account of its history in the first place. It's more like legends or something. It's clear that BioWare intentionally puts a lot of misleading info all over the game, to make sure there is a lot of truth to be revealed later...

The only problem is that very often in unimportant areas it's indeed crappy writhing that takes place, which only adds to the confusion when it comes to the real "legends" and "revelations".

Retcon = amazing writing?

Nevermind. This conversation can achieve nothing. Good day to you sir.

[Zulu_DFA]

Vaenier wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Omega is a Tortuga in space, so the kind of low life that inhabits it can't have a straight account of its history in the first place. It's more like legends or something. It's clear that BioWare intentionally puts a lot of misleading info all over the game, to make sure there is a lot of truth to be revealed later...

The only problem is that very often in unimportant areas it's indeed crappy writhing that takes place, which only adds to the confusion when it comes to the real "legends" and "revelations".

Retcon = amazing writing?

Where's the retcon?

The Omega was always meant to be eventually revealed as been built by the Reapers, which is going to happen in ME3 no doubt. So anything else is just BS to set you up. And since you've let yourself to be set up, it is amazing writing.

Vaenier wrote...

Nevermind. This conversation can achieve nothing. Good day to you sir.

Whatever. Happy new year!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Actually, I was sure of it ever since I saw the lenght of the Omega in its description, but this confirms it 100%.

Still, we don't have much insight into what its original function was. Could be a Reaper factory like you said, but I kinda doubt that, since they'd probably prefer having such a facility in the security of the galactic core's black holes beyond the Omega-4 Relay. Could be a "failsafe" dark space relay, though that would make ME1's plot make even less sense (with the established information we have, anyway), and the shape of the station doesn't really point towards that, either.

BTW, the "Omega = Reaper factory" idea roots in the Mad Prophet's assertion that --

"on this great station, the pure shall be rejected, and the lesser races given their places in heaven".

[IndigoWolfe]

I think the sniper was talking about the London area alone when he said "two million in the first day, another seven million by the end of the first week."

At least, that's what would make sense to me, considering he went on to talk about how other reports were coming in from major cities, I'd assume with similar statistics.

*Edit* Oh thank goodness, someone else brought this up before.

Modifié par IndigoWolfe, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[Zulu_DFA]

IndigoWolfe wrote...

I think the sniper was talking about the London area alone when he said "two million in the first day, another seven million by the end of the first week."

At least, that's what would make sense to me, considering he went on to talk about how other reports were coming in from major cities, I'd assume with similar statistics.

*Edit* Oh thank goodness, someone else brought this up before.

Your worlds will be our laboratories

The Reapers aren't bent on killing everybody. Not at once anyway. Not until after turning a lot of Humans into lab animals.

[shoemy89]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Now as for the Reapers themselves, they're really stupid. Why? Well as many people say "them flying back is a plot hole" Now I'll argue till the end of time it's not, it's simply bad writing, because ME1 and ME2's ending make it pretty obvious that they can simply fly back but don't because they're entire plan revolves around using the Citadel.

 
Not sure what you mean about the ME1 ending showing that, but the ME2 ending doesn't necessarily do so either. Remember back to Tali's recruitement mission on Haestrom... They talk about the system's star, Dholen, being at an advanced stage of maturity for it's age due to dark matter. And that the Geth were not believed to be resposible for the interfering dark matter, but it couldn't be certain if the change was because of something natural or artificial. It could be perhaps that Dholen was a back up plan, on the off chance that the plan to open the Citadel should fail, and could be used to open a wormhole between itself and a star much closer to the Reapers on the edge of the galaxy. Maybe it's a bit out there, but... it's a theory.

Also, the Reapers simply flying back would take far to much time for them to reach inhabited space during Shepard's lifetime (seeing as he still exists during the attack on Earth in the ME3 trailer). They were the ones that created (or at least took care of after a point) the mass relays; it's likely that they could figure out another means of getting to the Citadel should their orginal plan fail. Or perhaps they'll simply use whatever relay they were going to use to get to the Citadel to get to another relay, assuming that they were going to use a relay in the first place...

In ME1 Vigil says that by denying them the use of the Citadel they only hope to pospone the Reaper invasion, not stop it meaning that the Protheans must have assumed that they would simply fly there, at the end of ME1 Shepard and the Anderson/Udina seem pretty set on fighting the Reapers back into dark space which implies fighting off an actual invasion. How do they know the Reapers are flying back? I always just assumed this was Shepard's magic information gathering at work, like Shepard knowing about Harbinger beyond it's name. Considering one of the things it says are "We are Harbinger" as well as "I am Harbinger" why doesn't Shepard say "Harbingers are coming" or simply "The Reapers"? Also since Shepard is on the freaking Normandy flying away from the collector base when Harbinger says "They will find another way" s/he has no way of hearing that, meaning when s/he says to the Illusive Man that "Harbinger is coming and he won't be alone" s/he has some information we don't since Shepard says "[They're] coming" not "I stopped them from opening the relay again so they're stuck in Dark Space and we're good for a while", then of course the ending simply shows them flying towards the galaxy. I would be open to saying they have a Plan B to get into the galaxy beyond flying there, but then why didn't they use it the second Plan A failed instead of giving the species 2 years to harvest their technology (Thanix is a reaper based weapon) and improve their own?

The Protheans didn't necessarily assume that they'd fly back should the Citadel fail as they had set it up, but perhaps they figured that if they were intelligent enough to find a way to plan all that several times before them and without anyone's knowing that they could figure out another way into the galaxy.

So what does that have to do with anything? Well as people will point out the Citadel is only 2 or 3 relay jumps away from the edge of the Galaxy so if they can just fly back at any time it's not exactly hard to get to the Citadel and do their whole control the Relay network/cut off all the species, meaning they wait in Dark Space to save themselves the time of flying to 3 at max relays. Which considering they have FTL faster than our FTL shouldn't take them that long. So why do they wait?

 
As said before, they might not even be using a relay to get to the Citadel. And getting from beyond the galactic rim to the closest possible relay, even at light speed, would take a long time.

Because the Reaper's are idiots. I mean yes they might close the Citadel and screw the Reapers but really look at the Council's reaction to previous threats, they said they were going on full alert in case Saren attacked the Citadel and their fleets were still nowhere near prepared when Sovereign showed up.

They weren't expecting Sovreign, or any Reaper. They were expecting Saren and a bunch of Geth.

So really the Reapers are just stupid. Oh and one more for the idiot ball Reapers like to carry around; why the hell would Sovereign invest enough energy into an avatar, that destroying it took down its sheilds when it could have simply taken out all the Ships shooting it and then possessed the avatar? Or why didn't he just beam the back part the chamber and suck them out into space with out destroying the controls?

Because he got impatient. He saw a chance and rushed into it after waiting an extra 50,000 years (I'm fairly certain that's the amount) to enact their plan, which unfortunately for him, didn't work out so well.

[Len Lfc]

Just been reading through this topic & it reminded me of all the discussions about the Reapers & the Protheans before ME1 even came out, & all the discussions before ME2's release. There were many questions & debates, just like now. I can't wait for ME3 to come out just so i can look back at these topics after i've beaten it & just see wether anyone was right or wrong or even close with their predictions.

[JeffZero]

I'd say something about how you should never get so carried away with a fan theory that the writers' answer is not going to satisfy you no matter what, but then, many of BioWare's top personnel sometimes view these forums so at the very least they'll probably take note of anything the vast majority of fans vocal enough to post here dislike.

[Sajuro]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Or Vigil was simply BSing you.

Like the Rachni queen. Like Elnora. Like Anderson. Like TIM. Like the Shadow Broker. Like Morinth. Like Donovan Hock. Like Admiral Hackett. Like Lizbeth Baynham. Like Tela Vasir. Like pretty much everyone who wants to BS you.

Why would Vigil BS you? I understand why you think like the Rachni Queen would, I don't agree with it, but I fully understand it and would not be suprises in the least if you're right. But Vigil was a VI specifically designed to pass that on. Would the Protheans really be that big of dicks that they would program a VI just to screw with the person who found it?

Yep, because the Protheans were giant as$holes
and to OP: 9 million in the first week means: everyone you know or care about is dead or is about to be dead. Still think the Reapers suck?

[Vaenier]

Sajuro wrote...

and to OP: 9 million in the first week means: everyone you know or care about is dead or is about to be dead. Still think the Reapers suck?

How does making it personal matter? Why does it have to be all about you? This is supposed to be about all life in the galaxy, not just your friends dieing.

[samagent]

Lets not forget that they are not just attacking people, but our resources as well. So maybe in a week 9 million died but once food and water starts to run out more and more people will die and die quickly. Plus the Reapers are going to need a race to replace the collectors and as we already know, the Reapers want us for that job.