927 réponses à ce sujet

[lovgreno]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

They didn't have to return at all, not even as cameos. Neither did the VS. But they were all thrown in to please their fanboys.

BioWare didn't have to include any old squadmates at all but they decided that listening to the fanboys and girls would mean profit and popularity. And they were right. So why not repeat a winning concept?

[Zulu_DFA]

lovgreno wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

They didn't have to return at all, not even as cameos. Neither did the VS. But they were all thrown in to please their fanboys.

BioWare didn't have to include any old squadmates at all but they decided that listening to the fanboys and girls would mean profit and popularity. And they were right. So why not repeat a winning concept?

BioWare decided that pissing off a few fanboys wouldn't mean squat, so they sidelined all the ME1 LIs. Why not repeat a winning concept?

[Volband]

Hmm, about fanservice... there was that thingy called Dragon Ball. The creator of it wanted to replace the main hero with his [the main heros'] son. Fans went crazy. Main hero stayed. /yeah, maybe it would be a better story if the exchange were to happen, but it would have had much less readers)

It's quite annoying how some people doesn't want those, who actually cared about their squad, to have some benefits. If you didn't like them, then be happy that you killed them, why do you even care if we get more content with them?
And no, "benefit" and "more content" does not mean cameos with beloved squad mates spitting in my face. Wrexs' cameo was understandable, although it wouldn't change a thing if he weren't there, because another leader would simply replace his role, but whatever... at least we could have a feelgood scene with him. More than nothing, I guess...

Again, let's think... creating 12 WELL-WRITTEN cameos that would please the fans. And now think more, the 6 LIs must have even deeper cameos, because the VS showed bioware the result of treating a LI as a heartless idiot. Sounds "cheap" for me!
Sure, cheaper than making them squad members again (the difference is not that big though, as some ppl here want to believe. and I assume Bioware has some money to sacrifice, for keeping the fans nerdgasm, which can lead them blindly buy any DLC at any cost ), but showing the middle finger to fans is not the best marketing. After all, they brought this all on themselves. Brought back old, loved squad members, introduced us new ones, made them forge into a team under Shepard, ready to fight till the end.They can't just throw them away.


If you didn't like them, then be happy you killed them (almost) all, and be happy losing content which you didn't even want in the first place, because I guess if someone intentionally kills for instance Jacob, won't be shocked by the fact that he can't interact with the guy anymore in the third game.
And newcomers - as I said before - would get some ME2 characters back, so they'll have a decent content, but if they want the full experience they have to play at least the second game.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
BioWare decided that pissing off a few fanboys wouldn't mean squat, so they sidelined all the ME1 LIs. Why not repeat a winning concept?

I'm happy some people believe that bioware would not do anything that would please their fans, if it cost more money than just leave them rot. Way to go. 

Modifié par Volband, 30 décembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[lovgreno]

Volband wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
BioWare decided that pissing off a few fanboys wouldn't mean squat, so they sidelined all the ME1 LIs. Why not repeat a winning concept?

I'm happy some people believe that bioware would not do anything that would please their fans, if it cost more money than just leave them rot. Way to go. 

No one belives that BioWare will try to please ALL kinds of fans as that is not practicaly possible. However I belive they will make an effort to please the majority of fans. And as said it seems the perhaps biggest wish for ME3 is to see returning squadmates (= a high possibility of profit). Therefore I am sure that BioWare can think of something good if they realy want to.

You may have whatever opinion you want about fans but fact is that keeping them loyal by giving them what they want is a potentialy very stable profit source for a long time. Wich is something entertainment companies like BioWare and EA realy wants for obvious reasons.

Modifié par lovgreno, 30 décembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Computron2000]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

They didn't have to return at all, not even as cameos. Neither did the VS. But they were all thrown in to please their fanboys.

BioWare didn't have to include any old squadmates at all but they decided that listening to the fanboys and girls would mean profit and popularity. And they were right. So why not repeat a winning concept?

BioWare decided that pissing off a few fanboys wouldn't mean squat, so they sidelined all the ME1 LIs. Why not repeat a winning concept?

You just shot yourself through the head with the logic gun. Complain about catering to fan boys then complain about not catering to fan boys. Marvellous.

Ignoring of the hook into LotSB in the base game which was already exposed months before LotSB came out. Or Liara was not an LI in ME1? Again, marvellous

Modifié par Computron2000, 30 décembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[lovgreno]

Computron2000 wrote...

You just shot yourself through the head with the logic gun. Complain about catering to fan boys then complain about not catering to fan boys. Marvellous.

Ignoring of the hook into LotSB in the base game which was already exposed months before LotSB came out. Or Liara was not an LI in ME1? Again, marvellous

A big mouth attitude while hiding behind the internet anonymity, how pointless and boring.

Im not complaining about anything, I belive BioWare have been and are trying to do the most they can with the time and resources they have to make as many fans as possible satisfied enough to buy their product. This may mean that there will be no returning squadmates and it may mean that some will return (as the case was in ME2). I don't know as I am not on the development team and the game is far from finished yet. All I'm saying is that the popularity of some characters seems like a good economical incentive for BioWare to try to come up with a good way to include old fan favourites. And as they have done similar things before I belive the possibility of them doing it again is high.

[Barquiel]

lovgreno wrote...

No one belives that BioWare will try to please ALL kinds of fans as that is not practicaly possible. However I belive they will make an effort to please the majority of fans.

I have the impression that the majority of fans are pleased with good cameo roles or temporary squadmate status.

People think that Liara's (Illium) and Ash/Kaidan's ME2 cameos were poorly done - they complain...

Wrex's cameo was well done - most fans love his new role
LotSB was well done - most fans love it

Modifié par Barquiel, 30 décembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[Bamboozalist]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

They didn't have to return at all, not even as cameos. Neither did the VS. But they were all thrown in to please their fanboys.

You know why most RPG sequels have an entirely new party? Because you're generally playing...wait for it...A NEW PROTAGONIST! You know why companies do that? It's so they don't have to go through the effort of explaining why the hell the protagonist doesn't just call up his 6-20 best friends he saved the world with last time.

[Alienmorph]

Barquiel wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

No one belives that BioWare will try to please ALL kinds of fans as that is not practicaly possible. However I belive they will make an effort to please the majority of fans.

I have the impression that the majority of fans are pleased with good cameo roles or temporary squadmate status.

People think that Liara's (Illium) and Ash/Kaidan's ME2 cameos were poorly done - they complain...

Wrex's cameo was well done - most fans love his new role
LotSB was well done - most fans love it

Because, as you said these are good cameos that works for the characters nomineed and for the general plot too. But find a nice place as was done with LotSB for other 12 character without do a mess? Hmm... seems hard almost as keeping 1/2 half of them aboard. Especially if you think that also you'll have to dedicate a decent space to the new team too. And if the team becomes big as ME2's then you have something like 25-30 character with their own side storylines to deal with it, and ,'cause SOME consequences of your actions will remain even NpCizing everyone, an amount of variables and contents to do that will be at least the same, but probably much bigger, than the one needed to keep a part of the team with Shepard. 

So really, dedicates the space of LotSB's Liara to everyone is not that plausible imoh. And don't say that no one needs all that space, 'cause at least 8-9 squaddies have problems hudge as Liara's war with Shadow Broker. So you can go with the general cameo, and f**k completely the idea of having a trilogy of games with various plots developed along all of them (that's the fundamental feature of ME), or you can keep the most important squaddies with Shep, integrating their subplots in the main story. 

[Barquiel]

As I have said, Wrex isn't a temporary squadmate with his own mission and most fans still love him.

He is happy to see Shep, he has some great lines (Shepard, my friend!)...and his cameo makes sense (storywise)
screentime? maybe 5-10 minutes - but his fans are pleased

Liara on Illium? You have to read a comic and select the correct dialogue options to understand her reaction...

Modifié par Barquiel, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[Alienmorph]

Yes, but ME3 is the final chapter of the saga... I'm curious to see how you expect to solve an entire subplot for each character in a 5 minutes conversation like Wrex's. That's why I was pointing more on LotSB, cause it rapresents the minumal decent time to resolve an important plot.

[Bamboozalist]

Barquiel wrote...

As I have said, Wrex isn't a temporary squadmate with his own mission and most fans still love him.

He is happy to see Shep, he has some great lines (Shepard, my friend!)...and his cameo makes sense (storywise)
screentime? maybe 5-10 minutes - but his fans are pleased

Liara on Illium? You have to read a comic and select the correct dialogue options to understand her reaction...

Most people were happy with Wrex in ME2 because we knew he was a building block for ME3 and his role there actually made sense as a "cameo" much like the Rachni queen's speeker, if both of those don't go anywhere in ME3 we're going to be pissed.

[Zulu_DFA]

Computron2000 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

They didn't have to return at all, not even as cameos. Neither did the VS. But they were all thrown in to please their fanboys.

BioWare didn't have to include any old squadmates at all but they decided that listening to the fanboys and girls would mean profit and popularity. And they were right. So why not repeat a winning concept?

BioWare decided that pissing off a few fanboys wouldn't mean squat, so they sidelined all the ME1 LIs. Why not repeat a winning concept?

You just shot yourself through the head with the logic gun. Complain about catering to fan boys then complain about not catering to fan boys. Marvellous.

It wasn't a complaint about not catering to fanboys.

lovgreno wrote...

No one belives that BioWare will try to please ALL kinds of fans as that is not practicaly possible. However I belive they will make an effort to please the majority of fans. And as said it seems the perhaps biggest wish for ME3 is to see returning squadmates (= a high possibility of profit). Therefore I am sure that BioWare can think of something good if they realy want to.

You may have whatever opinion you want about fans but fact is that keeping them loyal by giving them what they want is a potentialy very stable profit source for a long time. Wich is something entertainment companies like BioWare and EA realy wants for obvious reasons.

The most profitable thing for EA/BioWare to do is to withhold the most popular ME2 squadmates from the ME3 disk completely, and release separate LotSB-like DLC with each of them. Paid, of course, or only available via Collectors Edition... So I'd start piling up coins already, if I were you.

As for me, I'll be happy with any kind of Zaeed's comeback. Because it will seriously rock! It will seriously rock if Zaeed is only cameo, or if he is a full-time squadmate, or if he is the protagonist... Even an e-mail from Zaeed will totally rock. Because that's what Zaeed does.

But since I'm not here to discuss the ME3 squad, but the ME2 comebacks and fan service, I'll take a shot at the real misconception: that the VS's cameo sucked. In fact, it was the best cameo in ME2, and it rocked, almost as much as Zaeed! Really, I loved how that insubordinate way-over-her-head bitсh Ashley came out and said "Hey, Shepard! You Cerberus? Fuсk ye!!!"

The only problem was that there wasn't a proper renegade response from Shepard, something like "Don't be melodramatic, Williams. Everybody knows what's in your blood. Cowardice and treason, that's what! Now, get out of my sight!" But that's a problem with the writing of Shepard, not with a squadmate cameo. And I repeat, even though Ashley and Kaidan havebeen blended into a single role, this role payed more tribute to them both than even LotSB to Liara, because the latter is largely a piece of fan service, while the VS's cameo showed some gutsy, realistic and totally plausible (unless you're a fanboy, of course) writing.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Bamboozalist]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The most profitable thing for EA/BioWare to do is to withhold the most popular ME2 squadmates from the ME3 disk completely, and release separate LotSB-like DLC with each of them. Paid, of course, or only available via Collectors Edition... So I'd start piling up coins already, if I were you.

As for me, I'll be happy with any kind of Zaeed's comeback. Because it will seriously rock! It will seriously rock if Zaeed is only cameo, or if he is a full-time squadmate, or if he is the protagonist... Even an e-mail from Zaeed will totally rock. Because that's what Zaeed does.

But since I'm not here to discuss the ME3 squad, but the ME2 comebacks and fan service, I'll take a shot at the real misconception: that the VS's cameo sucked. In fact, it was the best cameo in ME2, and it rocked, almost as much as Zaeed! Really, I loved how that insubordinate way-over-her-head bitсh Ashley came out and said "Hey, Shepard! You Cerberus? Fuсk ye!!!"

The only problem was that there wasn't a proper renegade response from Shepard, something like "Don't be melodramatic, Williams. Everybody knows what's in your blood. Cowardice and treason, that's what! Now, get out of my sight!" But that's a problem with the writing of Shepard, not with a squadmate cameo. And I repeat, even though Ashley and Kaiden were blened into one role, this role payed more tribute to them both than even LotSB to Liara, because the latter is largely a piece of fan service, while the VS's cameo showed some gutsy, realistic and totally plausible (unless you're a fanboy, of course) writing.

I would like to start out by saying while we disagree about many, many things Zulu, I fully agree that the VS survivor cameo was good. Why? Because it made sense plot wise, Kaiden and Ashley are alliance soldiers through and threw and they're not about to go AWOL to go run off and join Cerberus with you.

At the same time that's why I don't mind Garrus being back since he's basically your best friend along with Joker, he is the guy who would run off to help you at a moments notice...if you were nice to him in ME1 which brings up the biggest problem. In ME2 all of your squadmates if you play your cards right are pretty much lumped into the same boat as Garrus and would be there to fight for you, hell some even flat out promise this. At the same time you can also make it so they would all leave the second the mission is over.

Bioware in ME2 just decided that if you treated your squad like crap in ME1 it didn't matter because all of them operate on the principle that you were a great leader and a good friend in ME2. If the same holds true for ME3 then we'll have them back. See Bioware paints themselves in a corner by allowing you to be so deeply involved with your squad to where they either have to pull an ME2 and just assume you were their best friend and not a complete **** to them, or do that in reverse, or actually track how you treated them and go through the whole mess of variables that come with it.

Edit: Fixed quote.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:50 .

[Vena_86]

I would be happy if they have decent roles to help you fight the reapers. Wrex and Liara are already good examples of how former squad mates could be handled. Kaidan/Ashley all over again would be rather dissappointing. But looking at how the game will probably be about gathering allies to fight the reapers, I can imagine that all surviving former squad mates will contribute to your victory in one way or the other, without beeing squad mates all over again. Actually, I would even prefer that and get some interesting new characters for my crew, while the others take up leading roles in the war.

[darth_lopez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah sure, just look at the ME2 comebacks of Garrus and Tali:


Garrus:

I tried go for spectre again, didn't work out, so here I am.
=OR=
I tried go to back to C-Sec, didn't work out, so here I am.



Tali:

You gave me those Geth files, lol!
=OR=
[nothing]

That's great continuity, character development and what not.

What do you have to add? Garrus and Tali were important for ME2 and you know it, they had to return, they had to be in a position in order to join Shepard. Their variables passed from ME1 and ME2, expecting drastic changes would be naive. In ME3, all that has to happen is for dead squaddies to disappear, it's as easy as that.

They didn't have to return at all, not even as cameos. Neither did the VS. But they were all thrown in to please their fanboys.

That said, Garrus could have had an awesome cameo in place of Captain Bailey, and there could have been two completely different Garruses: one playing by-the-books paragon, and the other playing "badass" renegade. By ME3 he could've become the chief of C-Sec (oh yeah, Bailey's role again). Instead of all that, he contracted the "suicide mission" terminal disease.

Garrus continue working at C-Sec? Did you pay no attention to ME 1 garrus? He hated the place and approved of Renegade shepard actions. That would have Totally out of Character For him Completely even if it was a cameo the. The only cameo role for garrus that is in his character would've been to come across him during spectre training or in the field as a spectre Again that's what you can get from ME 1 garrus. The dude hates Red Tape and the bull**** tied up with C-Sec this is made blatantly obvious in ME 1 when he quits his job at C-sec Dear Lord sir! you should feel ashamed of your self for suggesting he return to a job he hates.

Tali's Role as daughter of an Admiral is unmistakeable, It's also something we find out about in ME 1, She is essentially a vital quarian political asset. If we're setting the stage for Geth/Quarian Peace or war in ME 2 it makes total sense and is almost a requirement shepard pick tali up again her influence over the quarian people is unmistakeably necessary. if she does not return in ME 3 it's likely she'll make a cameo as an Admiral on the Admiralty board and if she doesn't i'm willing to bet there's a 75% chance she ends becoming admiral Mid-ME 3.

So yes for the story telling purposes in ME 2 Garrus and Tali were totally necessary if they wanted to remotely set stage forGeth/quarian Peace, The uneccessary characters in the Party to appease fans were Grunt and Legion. While legion can also be integral in Geth/Quarian Peace he seems to have been an after thought with the only loyalty mission that has a 50-50 chance of not being possible to complete Grunts Sole Purpose was to join Clan Urdnot that is all.

Grunt was designed from the start to be a mini wrex, they even compare him to wrex in game. and Legion was there to satisfy everyone who wanted a geth onboard their normandy because their were plenty of posts in the old ME 1 forums about Give us a Geth. Which sounded like the most ridicuolous thing ever. While BW pulled it off well it was certaintly the most obvious appeal to the fans ever, Along with Making Garrus and Tali remanceable but when those are like the only 2 romances that work well for most people i'm willing to bet that BW intended that the older party members have more romantic/cute scense and the romances were actually intended well before fans demanded it.

[Bamboozalist]

^ Tali doesn't seem interested at being involved with Quarian politics and you can get her exiled.

[Phaedon]

Are we still arguing about whether or not ME1 squaddies returning was fan service?

[Bamboozalist]

Phaedon wrote...

Are we still arguing about whether or not ME1 squaddies returning was fan service?

Better question: Are we ever NOT arguing about whether or not it was fan service?

[darth_lopez]

Bamboozalist wrote...

^ Tali doesn't seem interested at being involved with Quarian politics and you can get her exiled.

it still directly affects quarian politics and gives the quarians motive to go to war. if she gets exiled it strengthens the appeals of those who don't want to go to war as well, however you and i both know well enough about the Research ship and it's experiments

Tali is a political pawn Exile or not.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 30 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Alienmorph]

Bamboozalist wrote...

^ Tali doesn't seem interested at being involved with Quarian politics and you can get her exiled.

In chase of exile she says that it's possible to and exiled quarian to redeem him/herself, but also that's very hard. Something like retaking Rannoch should do the job... so the exile might be even a stronger reason to have her aboard and/or involved in the geths/quarians situation.  

[Bamboozalist]

Alienmorph wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

^ Tali doesn't seem interested at being involved with Quarian politics and you can get her exiled.

In chase of exile she says that it's possible to and exiled quarian to redeem him/herself, but also that's very hard. Something like retaking Rannoch should do the job... so the exile might be even a stronger reason to have her aboard and/or involved in the geths/quarians situation.  

You and Darth seem to be misinterpetting what I was saying. It was directed towards why I don't think Tali would be an admiral, not why she shouldn't come back.

[Alienmorph]

Bamboozalist wrote...

You and Darth seem to be misinterpetting what I was saying. It was directed towards why I don't think Tali would be an admiral, not why she shouldn't come back.

No, I didn't. I was precising that still she has strong motivations to return without become Admiral. 

[darth_lopez]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

^ Tali doesn't seem interested at being involved with Quarian politics and you can get her exiled.

In chase of exile she says that it's possible to and exiled quarian to redeem him/herself, but also that's very hard. Something like retaking Rannoch should do the job... so the exile might be even a stronger reason to have her aboard and/or involved in the geths/quarians situation.  

You and Darth seem to be misinterpetting what I was saying. It was directed towards why I don't think Tali would be an admiral, not why she shouldn't come back.

--Spoilers may be present--

her fathers an admiral, and if not exiled there are demands for her to step up after the events on the alerei. She's already probably got most of the quarian public on her side for admiralty when the trial turned out to be a frotn for geth war. there are 2 war Supporters and 2 Peace supporters on admiralty board presntly and 1 missing seat. Tali could easily fill that seat with the support of the public and break the Geth War vote stalemate it is almost 80% likely that the quarian who helped save the galaxy in ME 1, ME 2 and has no doubt done the most to build quarian relations outside the flotilla would be put up to admiral. Much like Wrex returned and captured Tutchanka Talis role as a leader is pivotal in the survival of her Race.

edit as Alienmorph said, even exiles have the chance to redeem themselves i'm willing to bet forging peace between the geth and the quarians or retaking their homeworld or bringing aid to the flotilla under reaper attack would be enough to redeem her and put her in a seat of power at the same time

Modifié par darth_lopez, 30 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Bamboozalist]

Alienmorph wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

You and Darth seem to be misinterpetting what I was saying. It was directed towards why I don't think Tali would be an admiral, not why she shouldn't come back.

No, I didn't. I was precising that still she has strong motivations to return without become Admiral. 

But...I agree with that, that was my entire point, was that she has no real desire to leave for Admiralty.

Edit @: Darth but after ME2 Tali and Shepard both have enough pull to influence the public into swaying an admiral like say Han'Gerrel to at the very least temporary truce without the need for Tali to be on the Admiralty.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 30 décembre 2010 - 08:29 .